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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 11:29:33 GMT -5
Jon, even with a 180 gallon tank, you are still very limited on what you can keep together. I'm not at all certain I'd keep any of those species you listed together. The group of Astatotilapia aeneocolors would do fine in a 20 L or a 29 gallon tank alone, but I wouldn't keep them with the fulus. I'm not certain I would mix the P. Salmons with the X. phytophagus. The fulus are a much more aggressive breed than the Salmons, and will intimdate them. I'd have to check on the likelyhood of cross breeding with the A. latifasciata and the fulus, but temperament wise, they should be fairly close. I do know the stress patterns of the fulus, with the vertical barring, might make cross breeding more likely, but I'd have to check on that. That may be your safest mix, but I am not certain of that.
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 11:32:53 GMT -5
Then likely what I would do is make use of the 75 gallon to put the Aeneocolors in there, as they shouldn't have issues with the very few Mbuna I'd keep, probably most aggressive being the Red Top Hongi's, and those Salmon's since there is a chance they may not be what they were listed as, could go Barb. If Lafasciata and Phytophagus works ok, what do you see as a third species to go in there? I'd been thinking Dayglow's or Flamebacks, but I have a feeling the similar female problem might come in with those.
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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 11:35:21 GMT -5
I'd say something piebald. Either Paralabidochromis chromogynos or "red finned piebald." I don't know if 3 species would be great, given the aggression levels, but I'd say something blotched would be the way to go if you wanted to mix 3.
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Post by corycatwoman on Apr 27, 2009 11:37:01 GMT -5
thats a good question. you also need to look into the aspect of the albino in the wild in comparison to the albino in the domestic form. if your looking at a wild scenario most albinos will never reach maturity or adults they will get picked off just for being an easy to see target. and thats not just with fish thats with almost every species. the albino alligators and crocodiles. mice rodents. they seem to get picked off within the first year or 2 of there life.
domesticly they do not have to much of a choice about survival they are safe with our eyes on them. so there may be alot more adults in the domestic side of things. which makes what your saying even more interesting. what happens when they are no longer juviniles but still stand out just the same. as far as fish go tho. ive been around a few different species of albino's the longest was the albino oscar that lived for 10 or 11 years in my sisters tank. theres quite a few albino channel catfish in a local reserve/conservation area. and theres a few friends that have albino pythons. from witnessing all of that. the channel catfish are mainly dependent on being fed rather then feeding themselves. the snakes are the same and seem to be more friendly then the regular pythons. and the oscar wasnt very aggressive until it started to need housing space.
i would assume that albinism is a genetic defect that is dangerous for wild animals, but a benefit for a domesticated pet by lowering aggression in the specific species. weather it be snakes or fish or even rodents. if this is wrong please let me know its only my assumption. i am very interested in hearing more about what you come up with for a consensus .
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Post by brenda on Apr 27, 2009 11:47:28 GMT -5
Jon, I agree with Barbara…You are still limited with Vics even in a 180. Truthfully you really can’t keep any more species in your 180 then I can in my 90, safely. You could have bigger colonies. A good way to figure what you can keep is this…Only 1 species where the female is silver, you could then add something like the chromogynos OR “red finned” piebalds, then you could also go with something like the Rock Kribs “mwanza” gulf species. There may be a few more that could work but I don’t think you are going to find many more that will work safely. If you don’t care about passing along fry then put as many as you like but if you are going to market the fry it is only fair to potential customers along with the well being of the vic species out there that you really follow the rules
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 12:30:40 GMT -5
Hopefully, that time will never come to have to make that choice anyways. I still need to trim out some of the lesser active groups. It's not a job but I figure if I'm going to keep them, might as well get something for them. Lafasciata's are actually doing really well over here to where I am not really sure I can find homes for them, and they might have to get donated as well. AB has at least 6-7 ads for these as well. Nice looking male, not hard to spot a female either, but they breed in huge numbers.
Fulu's would be a keeper species regardless if more or less tanks, I just love that species a lot. Now after that it gets tricky. Aeneo's will go to the 75, the Salmon's if confirmed not what they were sold as are gone, leaving just the Fulu and Lafasciata's. You have to figure too, the only Hap that's going to be left in there would be Taiwan Reefs, and undecided if I'd keep Flavus or not. They've done VERY well, but that market is running dry pretty quick. Just got the Hongi's so I don't want to go out of them just yet. Labs are basically dormant for at least 6 months and most of them are in the 75. There's going to be a pretty good amount of open space, so I really do hope there's a third Vic i could get in there, not to just do it, but I feel keeping Vics is more rewarding then Mbuna really. I mean obtaining Mbuna really isn't all that difficult and very few if any are under any threats.
I don't honestly see that much aggression out of the Fulu as much as I see out of the Lafasciata's but maybe in time if the male gets more assertive, that could well change. Just right now, since going from the 100 to the 180, he's been pretty relaxed spending most of his time courting the few left females I have. I'm not going to do something not advised you know that, I just am hoping there's a way to get a third group in there without putting the others at more risk. The logic here is that just should I be left with my main tank and 75, Mbuna forget that, I could start up with Mbuna most anytime in the future, and the substrate spawners would leave that tank basically with just them only, might as well just go Vic.
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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 12:41:03 GMT -5
I understand your logic and thinking on this. I'd still say piebald as your third species for the 180. With the foot print on that tank, you could do nice colonies of all 3, in good numbers. The Chromogynos, in my experience, are fairly aggressive. They tend to be a fairly dominant fish, and the space you can afford them might change that aggression level. In a 4 foot tank, I have males killing males, regardless of 75 gallon or 55 gallon, I've been unable to keep more than one male.
Let me check on the fulus and the Zebra compatibility. I think there is a quick thread I can check on the HCCC.
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 19:39:38 GMT -5
Thank you for looking into that Barb, if anyone knows about the Vic compatiblity, it's you or Brenda for sure. I'm going to pull the deal on the Malawi Hap I showed you and Brenda today. I'm going to have to really play things by ear and see if I'm going to get weeded down to just my 180 and 75 or not, as I really don't know, but just in case, I think this species, though not rare as they listed, is uncommon and you really don't see this talked about or offered, so it's an opportunity to study, even if just for a brief time. I got some feed back from a couple experienced keepers on NYCICHLIDS that posted they at least knew the seller sold legit fish. I'll be getting Vin's Fulu's this week which I really think is a good deal, 12 total for 70, which I think if he sold outside of me and him, he could easily get a 100 for that group. It'll mix up my line and allow me to not only have fry to sell but donate to you at CARES also, which I really look forward to contributing to, once my fry reach size to be used. Actually that makes me wonder, about what size would you be looking for them to be to be distributed? Auction I'm going to try to grab. www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwcichlidsm&1240882102
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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 20:01:19 GMT -5
Jon, appreciate the thought of CARES. Normally an inch or so, they don't have to be sexable, just a little hardier at that size.
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 20:12:55 GMT -5
Barb,
I'd been reading over the CARES link you have in your sig, and it seems a bit of the pages there show as "still under construction" I was trying to get an idea like for example, some of the ones I want to donate, really aren't that endangered, just I really don't have space and people to take them off my hands. They are Madagascars, so naturally this came to mind as well as Dr. Loiselle mentioned to me the Bronx Aquarium probably could use some. I offered him some as well since he figured out what my block was to get them to spawn, he said maybe down the road he might take some.
So as I navigated the site on your sig, I couldn't seem to get an idea of what you really are looking for. This might not be your area of responsibility with the group, web site construction, but do you know how soon it will take to get that all updated so I don't have to bug you with questions like that?
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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 20:31:57 GMT -5
I have no idea. I'm not involved with the website.
If it's cichlids you are interested in knowing about, that you can find on the ACA link on the homepage here. The list is fairly complete there.
As for what CARES is looking for, it's for people that plan to keep colonies of endangered fish, long term. You are free to share with CARES members, but mostly it's about what you do in your tanks.
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 20:38:25 GMT -5
Found what I was looking for Barb, thanks. Pytchochromis Oligocanthus actually listed as At Risk, which I'm happy then I have something. Astatotilapia Aeneocolors, vulnerable? WOW, I'm glad I jumped on them when I could. Can you explain something for me though?
How come the Lafasciata's have 2 status's and what are those numbers at the end of the chart?
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 20:45:32 GMT -5
Lost out on those Haps too, out bid right at the very last minute, but I drove the price up from the lead bidder by 25.00 LOL he wanted them just a bit more then I did. Instead of 41.00 he's paying 66.00
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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 21:11:12 GMT -5
I had to look it up, but from what I could tell, it has 2 classifications under 2 different authorities. The numbers at the end correspond to the party that classified them...in this case, the ICUN Red list has it listed as Critically Endangered, while the second one is Dr. Paul Loiselle, and he says they are classified as At Risk.
I use that list a lot, because it is a lot easier to use than the Red List. It only covers cichlids, which makes sense, because it is the American Cichlid Association. When the CARES website is finished, it will have a listing of other species as well.
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Post by barbara on Apr 27, 2009 21:12:48 GMT -5
Sorry about the bid. I hate it when that happens. I don't buy much from Aquabid, but on occasion there will be something that peaks my interest. We have a batch of Rhinogobius wui from there, that my husband and I just love.
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Post by jonv on Apr 28, 2009 13:47:23 GMT -5
That's ok Barb, maybe it was a subliminal message they weren't for me. It's a shame life never just gives you clear direct messages that you can't misinterpt or misunderstand but what can you do? There'll be other fish out there. If I only had someone supportive like your husband, you can bet I'd be much more active in keeping diverse groups and probably species specific tanks. Again, what you going to do? Not much you can. Logic just doesn't work in my case no matter how clear cut of a case I make, it always comes back to I "feel" vs "logic" and it's in conflict with each other. I personally can't understand how 3 large/medium sized tanks and two small supporting tanks goes to "all these tanks". If pigs could fly too...
Likely will be my last post in here for an indefinite period of time, and I will be adding in a larger colony of Fulu, and begin the process of trimming out many of the Malawi's and probably the Madagascars in favor of building up of Victorians as you and Brenda have suggested. I have no reason at all to question or doubt your input, so I will follow that. I may have been keeping Africans for quite some time, but I am not so arrogant to think that I cannot follow what someone else says or second guess them because someone else wants something different so I thank you for that Barb and Brenda. Work will take some time to tweak into a good setting.
At least with you two ladies here, African cichlid questions that arrise are in great hands and the input given should be of the highest quality. It's been great to be part of a collective group with you two, and to think a couple years ago I was suggesting Haps for Brenda, now I'm asking her about Vics, talk about a journey right? If I get stuck I'll find you, best of luck and wishes.
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Post by Carl on Apr 29, 2009 13:36:16 GMT -5
On the subject of Albinoism, I do not have much good informations, mostly just opinions that albinoism is a gnetic weakness. The only thing I could find (so far) is this statement: "The ferret and the albino mouse are susceptible to C. ruminantium under experimental conditions, and a mouse agent resembling C. ruminantium has been isolated in South Africa. "From this site: www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/gray_book02/fad/hea.phpIn context, these are not fish and this is referring to a specific disease, so although this is evidence, it certainly is not even close to "case closed" evidence IMO. Carl
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Post by jonv on Apr 29, 2009 17:44:35 GMT -5
That is a start in the direction I have been thinking Carl and I still have yet to find any specific study on Albino. I believe one time Vin told me the term they use really isn't Albino but hypo or hyper melanistic or something like that. I'll be seeing him tonight so I'll get a clearer term on this. Maybe if I switch the key word(s) this will turn up more information.
So far though, through the hobby, there seems to be a consensus among the keepers that Albino's are weaker and would theoretically therefore be more susceptible to pathogens. This would make sense. What I am unsure of though, is just being an Albino makes a fish or any animal that way? What I am thinking is this.
Over the period of time, as this mutation occured, in terms of the fish only first, the fish probably stood out among the others and got targeted as being an outsider even among it's own species. Probably a handful of these ran out of the area of the group, and found a place to fit in and thrive thus passing these genes on. But most likely what I surmise is that the first Albino's were as I said, a random mutation that occured and the first of them probably didn't have the best immune systems or organ development ect... as such, and there as each time this gene were passed on from the original, it cast it's future offspring to be at a disadvantage to others of it's species.
In looking at what Vin has conducted in snake studies, albinoism itself isn't just meaning a lack of color and a clear white. You can well have in both fish and snakes, I've seen with my own eyes, regular coloration in the body, but you know they are or have albino in them by the redness in the eyes. This makes me want to know more about albino and it's effects even more. Did the first occurence of it happen as totally lacking in color, or was it more of what you see in colored species, but carried the gene before it appeared as lack of color.
In terms of genetics itself, I believe only a certain combination will produce offspring with this gene, while the majority will be carriers. Genetics wasn't something I took much interest in school for, so now I'm having to re-learn a few things in biology. If you come across more detailed information, I think this will be useful for the very few of us that are real breeders in the group.
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Post by Carl on Apr 29, 2009 20:15:02 GMT -5
I will definitely look into this more (as this interests me as well).
I think the best way of proving this is to find the "why", meaning if we can find out say that a lack of melatonin affects how the liver works, and since the liver is what removes some toxins, this could be the "smoking gun". Of coarse the liver is just an example and I have no evidence of this at this time.
Carl
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Post by jonv on Apr 29, 2009 20:46:14 GMT -5
Vin suggested using key word search of "Genetic mutations (Albanism)" I'll run that when I get back just waiting for one more call to come in then I'm going to secure my group of new Fulu. If you happen to have time to run the search under that, would be cool, if not I'll look into this myself when I get back. Vin also suggested a book about this. I really want to know in a nutshell, am I doing the right thing here promoting and breeding up that Taiwan Reef line, or am I helping something genetiallcy inferior survive that otherwise wouldn't. I'm the last person that wants to take on that typical "European Aristocratic" we know it all mindset, which is the foundation of these narrow minded "purists" thinkers. If breeding this line of fish is doing something unnatural, I will have to re-evaluate this species in my operations.
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