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Post by Carl on Mar 6, 2009 17:42:26 GMT -5
The sheer number is amazing.
How are the remaining fish doing as to leaving the fry alone, any other possible threats?
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Mar 6, 2009 18:35:26 GMT -5
I wish I could breed that many fish at once. lol Truly amazing Jon. How did you get your fish to produce so many babies?
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Post by jonv on Mar 6, 2009 19:28:13 GMT -5
Basically, substrate spawners typically yield a much higher number of fry then mouthbrooders, for 2 big reasons. One is the physical limits of what a particular mouth can hold, and the other goes back to natural habitat. A substrate spawner is basically forced to spawn in high numbers due to predatation and survivibility of fry. Without high numbers of eggs and fertilization, it wouldn't take long for a group or even a species itself to die out.
There is a plus and minus to this as well. The plus is, you get such a large group of fry to choose from when you want to carry on a bloodline, you could split a line into many different traits, and you have much more fish to resell making a profit from a breeders stand point. But the draw back is, that sheer number does put stress on a parent, causes tank cleaning to be more difficult, and will cause you to have to use up more food faster after 1 generation.
Threats should be very minimal at this point Carl. The Fulu, 5 Yellow labs, 2 Clown Plecos, and the Bumblebee. That Matumbai Hunter is probably the biggest threat, but the size of those fry, and how much work it'd have to do just to get one, I doubt it's going to target the fry. Mom and dad are doing one super job with this group, and how far they are exploring is gradually expanding. I might very well be way off on my count too. I'm just guesstimating. There could just as easily be 400-500 there. I really don't know how to count so many small bodies at once.
Keep in mind also, last spawn, they made it 10 days, and these guys are only 7 days removed from being an egg. I'm observing the progress. It does seem, with the Polleni out of there, they are more daring and willing to go out farther from the nest site, but never too far from mom and dad.
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Post by brenda on Mar 6, 2009 19:45:27 GMT -5
That is amazing Jon...I still can't get over the # of fry.
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Post by jonv on Mar 13, 2009 21:22:12 GMT -5
Did some more work on the tanks, cleaned out the main tank, did a hasty cheap man's DIY tumbler set up if you can call it that, and looked in on the 100 gallon. I'm getting better with hands on my fish, literally. I used to be really nervous about handling them but after watching Vinny a few times, when I bring fish there, he don't even net them, just grabs them right out of the bucket, and I'd think this unusual except the last group of South American Arowana I sold off, the buyer when I brought them to him, picked them up right out of the bucket as well, so I am assuming this is a common practice in the hobby. So I picked up most of my female Flavus today to get a better idea of what a female vent looks like and it's not as difficult as I'd imagined. Well while scanning for the Flavus, I still had 2 holding and took them out. First one spit in the net, half fish half eggs, so I took an old guppy breeding box I had, cut off the mesh off a small net I had I don't really use, and rubber banded it around the bottom slats of the box, presto, DIY box tumbler. Though half hatched, they don't need to have that constant O2 flow as if they were still eggs, they can't be open in the 20 or they'd get picked off by the 1 week olds in there, since all they can do is bounce around, not swim yet. Second female, had fully hatched, spit a few out in the net, the rest I had to grab her and open up the mouth to get them out. I think I saw about 20 or so, plus the 10 I got last week, and 20 in the tumbler box, I now have about 50 F2 Flavus. They are all in the same tank with about 35 Protomelas Steveni's and the 8 Yellow Labs I was able to save off the last spawn. Seems highly stocked for a 20 gallon, but you have to consider the size, less then 1/4 inch at this point, so that should serve them well for a few months to grow in. The male zebra Obliquidens are going all happy tail shaking again so probably will get another shot at spawning them. My last holding female, failed again. Too early. I think it should be noted, let this species ride 3 weeks, not 2 before trying to net. She spooked again, dumped just partially hatched fry I couldn't save. Sucks because there were probably well over 50 of them. Next time around, lets hope. So my best one yet, I go to peer in on the 100 see how everyone's doing since I moved all the Polleni out, and I put the Ps. Crabro over in the 75. It appears the Pytcho spawn is getting bolder and bolder, really expanding out where they roam and putting more pressure on mom and dad to protect and cover them. They seem to be migrating towards the right side of the tank. So looking at the right side of the tank, don't you know I see a Fulu with a big old mouth? Yup, before I list Xistochromis Phytophagus to my list of spawned species, I'm going to wait till she spits, and not even think to net her for at least 2 weeks from today to make sure they are incubated. What a gem for the day! s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=031309_2157b.flv
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Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 13, 2009 21:45:52 GMT -5
thats great jon....you really have a gift for breeding....
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Post by Carl on Mar 16, 2009 10:04:54 GMT -5
Congrats Jon on adding another "notch" in your breeding experience, especially since If I am correct; the Xistochromis Phytophagus is one of your favorite cichlids.
Carl
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Post by jonv on Mar 16, 2009 11:54:50 GMT -5
That they are Carl, thank you. I don't want to list this one yet until they actually get out. It gets difficult when you don't know exactly when things happen like with the last round of Flavus, one group of them came out when I called you, like half egg half fish. It's not an easy thing really to get them out without fry loss. I've never been a fan of stripping, so sometimes you have no choice once you net up the female. I only hope with the Flavus case, this doesn't ruin her maternal instincts. I've heard too many cases of stripping a female, this causes them to not hold to term. I'm just not sure when to grab up that female Fulu.
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Post by jonv on Mar 16, 2009 13:37:42 GMT -5
Did a water change in the 100, I netted out two net fulls of the Pytcho spawn and put them in the 15 gallon alone. So far so good. I'd been extremely worried about the parents reaction to this, but leaving them some fry to tend to, just about half of them, they seem to be ok with it. About 3 different articles I've read point to a high tendancy of males to take it out on the females if there is fry loss, so that's why I've been waiting. The brood was so large though, the Fulu's and Hunter were starting to live some miserable lives, huddling all on one side of the tank in fear to go near the middle. This action, taking some out has seemed to reduce the space the parents are patrolling and opening up more space for the other occupants.
I moved my newly acquired F1 yellow labs up there, as they are too small to live in the 180, but I needed to clear out the 15, so basically it was a swap of Labs for Pytcho's between tanks. Trying to count the Pytcho's will still be rather futile. There are just that many. On a good note, it appears that I have 1 male and 5 female Fulu, as I believe I have found a second female Fulu holding and the other 3 outside of the colored male, all have the same features.
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Post by brenda on Mar 16, 2009 22:27:49 GMT -5
Goodluck with these Jon...I hope they hold to term for you.
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Post by jonv on Mar 16, 2009 23:38:57 GMT -5
It'll be a small first spawn Brenda for sure. I can see some of the eggs and appears to be maybe about 10. She doesn't always afford me a good look down her mouth though, but I still see white in there so at least I know it's too early now.
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Post by jonv on Mar 19, 2009 17:32:44 GMT -5
I picked up a couple female regular Taiwan Reefs today, so now the colony is one nice male Albino, 1 female Albino and 2 regulars. So far, little interest shown in the male, but I plan on doing a large water change in the 180 tonight, and we'll see if that changes things up. I also picked up a couple young but different patterned OB Peacocks. I find it interesting that OB's themselves are actually a fairly popular hybrid in a hobby that badly shuns hybrids. I believe this to be a male female pair, and young too, in the 2.5 to 3 inch size range. Will play this one by ear.
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Post by jonv on Mar 21, 2009 20:48:40 GMT -5
Well the first rounds of Fulu spawning failed, the females swallowed the eggs, but I am getting more and more confident that my colony really is 1 male and 5 females. I have 1 very fat mouthed holding female you can't miss, and I think there is a second one in there.. Assuming they aren't the same ones, and would be a strong bet they aren't because that was about 10 days ago I spotted them and couldn't see the bulge ever since, then that's 2 more females leaving just 1 unsure. How they are acting though and lack of any color changing at all, I would bet a paycheck this is a 1 male 5 female group. VERY good thing yeah boy~!
Found also, doing water change in the 180, one nice sized female Kenyi holding. First Kenyi I had spawn, that female, bigger then all the other females, and ironically, dirty blue almost like a half morphed male, didn't hold the eggs long enough. I saw the eggs in the mouth, so no doubt she is a she but she only made it about 5 days and then all gone. Will be first times for these. I picked them up off Petland back in like Sept. Oct time frame, lucked out to get 3 females 2 males. Not ideal, but they are in a 180 so that's a big plus.
Still in the holding tank and growing:
50 estimated Ps. Flavus at 2 weeks old from 3 different females 35 estimated Protomelas Steveni Albino *consolation brood for the 55 fry the Polleni ate!* 8 Labido. Caeruleus last spawns from the female that killed herself. 75-80 Pytchochromis Oligocanthus going into 3rd week of age.
Surprisingly, while the Pytcho's hatch very rapidly, from what I am seeing post hatching, the growth rate isn't any different then the Mbuna really, and if anything, might be at a slower rate. Will have to make a note to reference Dr. Loiselle on the growth rates. I left the rest with mom and dad, and it's scaled down the aggression and boundry they are patrolling, thus lowering the aggression to some degree in the 100. Must be working because 4 female Fulu have spawned in there, albeit 2 did fail, but that they are doing it makes me feel more secure things are going ok there.
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Post by jonv on Mar 30, 2009 13:14:28 GMT -5
I don't seem to find much about this species, but this is very intiguing and I'm considering it. I've practically weeded out all the older F2 Yellow Lab stock, in favor of a different blood line F1's that I'm growing out now. I have a feeling down the road, Mbuna spawning and carrying Mbuna all together is going to go away in favor of building up more Victorians. www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwcichlidsv&1238745325
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Post by Carl on Mar 30, 2009 20:12:49 GMT -5
So you are thinking of this trio of breeding Astatotilapia Bloyetis?
I am not familiar with them. You noted Victorian, but the scientific name implies a Madagascar Cichlid, is this correct?
What is their temperament?
They are a nice size for smaller tanks, especially if they have a mild temperament.
Carl
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Post by jonv on Mar 30, 2009 20:44:08 GMT -5
It's supposed to be a Victorian Carl, but after talking with Brenda offline about this, I am starting to suspect either the fish listed there is either a hybrid or mislabelled by the seller. Apparently the look of this species is not like what the picture shows, so I'm passing on them.
Astatilapia's are usually Victoria or Victorian Basin I think Carl. The Ast. Lafasciata (Zebra Obliquedins) and Ast. Aeneocolor are both Basin's. I would be inclined to think most of the Astatilapia's are Vics to some degree, but I'm half speaking Greek when it comes to that. I still can't make 100% of the sense in the names.
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Post by jonv on Mar 30, 2009 20:46:55 GMT -5
I also transferred the 15 gallon stock to the 100, took the adults from the 100 and put them in the 180. Lord help that Jardini if he eats the Fulu. So I have a count now on last months spitting spree.
217 is the count on the Pytchochromis Oligocanthus spawn 37 Protomelas Steveni Albino 38 Ps. Flavus from 3 different females 6 last spawn from late female Yellow Lab.
I currently have 1 Kenyi female, 1 Obliquedin female, 2-3 female Flavus holding and the Taiwan Reef spawned yet again this weekend, so soon, the 15 is going to be occupied yet again with tiny bodies. The above mentioned stock now occupies the 100 gallon tank with 1 small female 3 spot Gourami and 2 clown Plecos.
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Post by brenda on Mar 30, 2009 21:17:23 GMT -5
Holy crap Jon...That is a lot of babies...You need more tanks.(wink wink)
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Post by jonv on Mar 30, 2009 21:55:27 GMT -5
About the only way that is going to happen Brenda is if A, I hit the lottery or get a high paying job, good luck in this economy, B I find some donor for tanks that doesn't mind keeping the tanks with them so out of sight out of mind, or C, we get married LOL. If I could I would get them....
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Post by brenda on Mar 30, 2009 22:12:23 GMT -5
LMAO...Yeah wouldn't it be nice to have an SO who was as into the fish as we are. Instead, I have the opposite..."How many tanks do you need", "what are you gonna do with all these fish"...They just don't understand.
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