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Post by barbara on Apr 1, 2009 0:22:36 GMT -5
OK, I hate to rub it in, but my husband is almost as fish crazy as I am. He watches Craigslist better than I do for tanks, and found one today. We went to get a 55 gallon, and ended up with 6 new tanks! The original 55, with lids, lights and filters, 2 20H's with stand and lights and filters, and 3 20 L's with lights and lids and filters...plus a bunch of driftwood, and a few extra filters, some plecos...sigh. Great deal, but I'm so running out of room!
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Post by jonv on Apr 1, 2009 3:06:02 GMT -5
Oh you always get the lucky things Barb ha ha. Hey my female Aeneocolor, she's looking VERY ragged. Vin thinks it might be a virus. Her body is shrinking bad such that her head is much bigger then her body, but she is active and moving around. I'm getting worried she's not going to make it, but I do have 7 from a different bloodline due in next week, plus I have three offspring from the pair I'm going to grow up, so if I do lose her, it won't be the end of that project, just a small delay.
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Post by barbara on Apr 1, 2009 23:41:15 GMT -5
Oh you always get the lucky things Barb ha ha. Hey my female Aeneocolor, she's looking VERY ragged. Vin thinks it might be a virus. Her body is shrinking bad such that her head is much bigger then her body, but she is active and moving around. I'm getting worried she's not going to make it, but I do have 7 from a different bloodline due in next week, plus I have three offspring from the pair I'm going to grow up, so if I do lose her, it won't be the end of that project, just a small delay. Sometimes, yes I do. I may have lucked into a really fantastic deal, if I can figure out how to transport it home. 2 125's on a single stand, long stand. I know Dave's had some aeneocolors, but he seemed a little male heavy. I picked up a group of 6 for a 29 gallon. We'll see if they eventually need a larger tank.
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Post by jonv on Apr 1, 2009 23:49:47 GMT -5
Good deal Barb. These guys don't get really that big, I'd almost think one could call them a dwarf really. I think the bi-color pattern on these guys too are really nice. Not as striking as the Fulu or even something like say a Sp. 44, a Ruby Green ect... but for someone keeping a smaller tank and looking for color, I think the Astatilapia Aeneocolors make a fine choice due to the smaller size.
My lone male, he's giving all the effort he can to entice that female, so while they haven't spawned, it's not from a lack of effort on his part, I can say that much. I also feel, but this is only from watching them a few months, the males don't really beat the hell out of the females quite so bad.
Vin gave me a few younger ones I'm growing out in the fry tank which is now the 100 gallon. Plus the ones due in next week, I'll have a great colony up and running soon.
That Hap I posted, I keep forgetting about CF. It's a Placidochromis Electra. Was quite a different species and all by itself, so I said hey why not give it a shot. I'm going to get slammed with Flavus by the fall too Barb. 50 in the 100, and I got 3 more females holding! I'm planning on phasing out the Astatilapia Lafasciata's in favor of the Sp. 44's too.
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Post by barbara on Apr 2, 2009 1:53:04 GMT -5
Good deal Barb. These guys don't get really that big, I'd almost think one could call them a dwarf really. I think the bi-color pattern on these guys too are really nice. Not as striking as the Fulu or even something like say a Sp. 44, a Ruby Green ect... but for someone keeping a smaller tank and looking for color, I think the Astatilapia Aeneocolors make a fine choice due to the smaller size. My lone male, he's giving all the effort he can to entice that female, so while they haven't spawned, it's not from a lack of effort on his part, I can say that much. I also feel, but this is only from watching them a few months, the males don't really beat the hell out of the females quite so bad. Vin gave me a few younger ones I'm growing out in the fry tank which is now the 100 gallon. Plus the ones due in next week, I'll have a great colony up and running soon. That Hap I posted, I keep forgetting about CF. It's a Placidochromis Electra. Was quite a different species and all by itself, so I said hey why not give it a shot. I'm going to get slammed with Flavus by the fall too Barb. 50 in the 100, and I got 3 more females holding! I'm planning on phasing out the Astatilapia Lafasciata's in favor of the Sp. 44's too. My aeneocolors aren't showing much color, but I have a batch of babies already, and will need to move 2 holding females out. I think in breeding coloration the males are as stunning as any other Victorian, but that's just my opinion. Why move out the Astatotilapia latifasciata? The sp. 44 are more aggressive, and might/probably will cross breed with any female they can. Also, the latifasciata is endangered, while as far as I know, the 44's aren't. I love love love the electras. I have a nice school of them, and so enjoy the coloration, and the Placid...part. The one species I'd think of, if I were in your shoes and had some space, might be either the Paralabidochromis chromosgynos, or the sp. "Red finned piebald." Either of those should give you amazing coloration, and also such a small risk of cross breeding, because of the so totally different male and female coloration. I'm not necessarily encouraging you to get another species, but if you were looking...both endangered.
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Post by brenda on Apr 2, 2009 8:57:02 GMT -5
Jon, I too would stay away from the 44's. # 1 they are the most common vic out there, as Barbara stated they are more aggressive and are the most likely of any Vic to cross breed. I also agree with Barbara on the fact that the Zebra's are endangered. I also agree with the recommendation of the Chromogynos or the red finned pie bald. Both are endangered and most importantly they are completely different then your other females.
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Post by jonv on Apr 2, 2009 10:23:16 GMT -5
Those are some great alternative Barb and Brenda, thank you ladies. I'm not doubting either of you, but I'm looking also at the prices listed on the Lafasciata's and it's so very low. If endangered ok that's one thing but I just wonder why a species like that would carry such a low price tag, as say like the Fulu's or Flamebacks. It does appear that the females carry a HUGE broodload too. The mouth pocket on my female that I see is holding is just so much larger then any Mbuna, and is comparable to something like a large Hap like a Venustus. CF also wrote up an article that the Lafasciata females give extended parental care over young, up to a 2 month period which I rarely ever see in any Mbuna. The Pie Bald's have my interest.
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Post by barbara on Apr 2, 2009 10:39:24 GMT -5
Those are some great alternative Barb and Brenda, thank you ladies. I'm not doubting either of you, but I'm looking also at the prices listed on the Lafasciata's and it's so very low. If endangered ok that's one thing but I just wonder why a species like that would carry such a low price tag, as say like the Fulu's or Flamebacks. It does appear that the females carry a HUGE broodload too. The mouth pocket on my female that I see is holding is just so much larger then any Mbuna, and is comparable to something like a large Hap like a Venustus. CF also wrote up an article that the Lafasciata females give extended parental care over young, up to a 2 month period which I rarely ever see in any Mbuna. The Pie Bald's have my interest. Jon, the reason for the low price tag is...the latifasciata is a success story. The one we hope for with all Victorian species. They have made it into so many tanks, and been bred so often, that the demand is lower for those than other Victorians. This species and the sp. 44 are now the ones most common at a LFS. The problem still is, is it a true Astatotilapia latifasciata, or is it a hybrid? In the wild, this species is critically endangered, and being able to keep a true line of pure fish is still important.
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Post by jonv on Apr 2, 2009 12:22:33 GMT -5
Barb, as far as I can see, but I'm still training my eye to pick up on hybridizations effects, they don't deviate that far off from the pictures I've seen of the species. What would be helpful, since I don't have Ad Konnings book handy, (Vinny has it though and we actually reference the wild caught shots when looking at fish) if you know a site that has posted good wild caught shots of the species, that would help me out really well.
I still do like those Piebalds, and even the Flamebacks look nice. How can I find out just what has the highest probability of cross breeding? That way I can avoid that mess from the get go by grouping only certain species together. One last input here Barb, the Pundamilla "Crimson Tides", are these endangered in any way? I see them listed many times, and I also see a few different collection points. The most common one I see is Python Island. Can you tell me anything about that species?
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Post by barbara on Apr 2, 2009 13:00:16 GMT -5
Hmmm, a lot of questions. As for wild caught specimens, I don't know where you would find those pictures. I do a lot of poking around on the net, and have found some interesting resources, but probably the same ones you use for the most part. I'll get a list together of sites that I trust for information, and get that posted.
The highest probability of cross breeding? The aggression levels of the sp. 44 is the reason it will cross breed so often. It is almost always the most dominant fish in the tank, and then will breed with anything.
Using common sense should rule out a lot of the cross breeding problems. The biggest thing to look for is the similarity of the females. Most Victorian females look alike. Picking something that looks very different will help rule out cross breeding. Such as a mix like Xystichomis sp. "Kyoga Flameback" and Paralabidochromis chromogynos. The chromogynos is a little more aggressive than the "Kyoga Flameback" but in a decent sized tank this shouldn't be much of an issue, and the female coloration is so totally different in each species. Watch not only for coloration, but the types of barring on the species, in both stress patterns and at no stress. Xystichromis phytophagus has extra barring on the females, but in a stress pattern, they show similar vertical barring as a Pundamilia nyereri.
As for the Pundamilia species, the "Crimson Tide" is not an endangered species. I have my doubts about this species at all, as there is no location ever given for it. That doesn't mean much, but I have a theory on this, that I'll share with you in a private message.
Pundamilia nyereri has several location varients, and should not be housed together. Python Island, Ruti Island, and Igombe Island are the ones I'm most familiar with. Pundamilias are typically a rather robust, boisterous species, and fairly aggressive. They can easily intimidate other tank mates that aren't as rowdy. Gorgeous fish, for sure. I don't personally have any Pundamilia species at this point, but I do think they are beautiful. I can't give you any personal input into these.
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Post by jonv on Apr 2, 2009 13:36:13 GMT -5
Well, it's a start Barb. That's something that looks like is going to take more experience to learn. I full well understand what you are saying, but saying what to look for and actually seeing and spotting it sometimes can be difficult. I've found in my efforts to vent fish, that you tend to get a large amount of vents that could be either one, as in it's not clearly shown.
Still though what you are saying, is better then having nothing at all to go by. I'm just worried that I'm going to end up selecting species that I think wouldn't cross but actually could. I think for the start, I'm not going to keep that many Vics in the same tank. Right now, I have the Fulu and the Lafasciata in the 180, and I'm pretty sure that shouldn't be a threat, and the Aeneocolors are in the 75. I have space in the 100 to add in one more species and if other species appear to be good to start collecting, I in concept, would rework the stock such to avoid exactly what you just said. I'll likely need advice on who to put where. I'll list what species I've got and just ask what tanks should who go in with respect to potential cross breeds.
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Post by barbara on Apr 2, 2009 14:04:16 GMT -5
That's a good plan Jon. Checking availability of the species that you have interest, and seeing who should go with what, is the fun part! Brenda is a big fan of the Chromogynos because they are just so easily mixable. They are an at risk species, and could be a great addition to your tank.
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Post by brenda on Apr 2, 2009 19:41:48 GMT -5
Well Jon..It isn't as hard as you think. As Barbara said you must make sure females are quite different. For example...I can tell the difference between fire an flameback females but I wouldn't mix themas they are to close in looks. If you already have silver females, I would try to stay away from any other breed that has plain silver females. I would not mix something like the Fulu's with the kyoga flamebacks...They are just to close. I would not mix chromogynos with red finned pie balds...too close. However either the chromogynos or the red finned pie balds would mix with what you currently have. Does that make sense?
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Post by jonv on Apr 15, 2009 13:09:50 GMT -5
I've been a bit busy of late with my stock. The Jardini seems to have become increasingly a bit more aggressive and I believe it got a few of my female Astilapia Aeneocolor females, as I can't seem to locate about half of them which really pissed me off, and prompted me to step up my listing to sell him. It looks 95% that I found a match and buyer, they were supposed to make it over from NY today to get him, but they can't make it until tomorrow. I'm going to get 85 for it, which isn't what I'd hoped for, but it's more then I paid for it, plus there should be a hell of alot less stress in the tank now.
Since a couple weeks ago, I had such a number of fry in that 15 gallon, I felt it more prudent to move them up and let them just take the 100 gallon for space and sheer numbers.
As of last week I put up the 217 Pytchochromis Oligocanthus fry I counted, about 42 Ps. Flavus, 38 Protomelas Steveni Albino, and the last 8 Yellow Labs. That's what is in the 100 as of right now. However, this past week also got a spitting of Metriclmea Lombardoi (Kenyi) about 20 or so of them, I pulled out about another 20 Ps. Flavus off another female, the Astatilapia Lafasciata FINALLY delivered and looks to be in the 40-50 range, just back on Monday, and I moved the Protomelas Steveni Albino down last night, today I'm counting in the 40-50 range of yet another brood. Man she's one prolific spawner I tell you. What is also funny, is the two regular gene Protomelas Steveni females I picked up a couple weeks ago, the male shows little to no interest at all in them. I may have to acquire a regular gene male.
Within a few weeks I'll move up all the last paragraph which is in the 15 right now, up to the 100, and I'll have one hell of a fry tank there. I'd like to impart this about the Madagascar too. While they hatch very rapidly, once hatched, it appears the growth rates are rather slow by comparison to Mbuna or Haps. I picked up some female OB Peacocks which I put in the 75. They are still small and young but I think by the end of the year, I may have my own OB Peacocks breeding. All this going well, short of the Jardini eating up what I think was a few Fulu and Aeneocolors, but I should have him gone by tomorrow.
It appears I'm going to lose my male Scianochromis Fryeri. He has a clear case of Popeye, and I've treated with Meth blue baths and salt in the bucket, but he's not responding. It's not cloudy eye. The eye is clearly popped out and almost twice the size of the other, but I can't seem to get this out of him. The white blotches that were appearing on the Tilapia Bythobates appear to be more from aggression among them, then any pathogen, and I have plans to give them to the pet store, as they are proving to not breed, nor be as compatible as I'd hoped with the grouping.
Eventually, probably by the end of the year, hoping I can get one more spawn off them, I'll sell the Pytchochromis Oligocanthus in favor of trying to breed what I think is 2 pair of male/female Paratilapia Polleni.
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Post by Carl on Apr 15, 2009 17:48:24 GMT -5
Jon, since your Scianochromis Fryeri seems "gone" with the pop eye, you might try something stronger than the bath, that is a saltwater dip. This is done for only 3-5 minutes and can be very stressful, as it literally dehydrates the fish, but while doing so SOMETIMES it can also remove fluid build up and return proper osmotic function. See: Aquarium Disease Prevention; Section 9, DipsBTW, I got your messages, sorry for not returning it, (Very busy), just let me know if anything changes with your Jardini sale. Carl
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Post by jonv on Apr 20, 2009 16:37:02 GMT -5
Been watching the Kenyi spawn this afternoon/evening. I tell you, after you watch the efforts of an African male and what he goes through to get a female to spawn and fertilize it, I feel bad for these guys sometimes. They go through all the work to create up a nest and show their colors to attract a female, then a wandering passer by comes along, he's got to chase off this fish, that fish, and after watching them for about half an hour, I feel for that poor guy. He spends about 3/4ths of his time just warding people off. I've had to "help" my Taiwan reefs before, since the Venustus thought he'd poke a face in there and interrupt them. Also at some point today, another Zebra Obliquedin spawned. I figured they are due. Those females look FAT FAT FAT and egg laden. Activity has really picked up in the tank since the Jar was sold off.
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Post by jonv on Apr 20, 2009 19:22:06 GMT -5
The Tropheus Dubosi is still being quite a kinky perv too. Now instead of trying to have a 3 way with himself and the Astatilapia Lafasciata, he decided he was going to do his sexy dance for the Metriclimea Lombardoi's. This guy is either just one sick puppy, or sexually frustrated I am starting to think.
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Post by Carl on Apr 21, 2009 13:52:00 GMT -5
Glad to read he is finally gone!
Carl
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 7:27:22 GMT -5
Not sure how much useful information would be gathered asking here, but you never know who else might encounter this at all. I'll be asking in more cichlid specific places to see if there is other factors not considered, so I think it's a good idea to open a discussion on some topics.
First is with the added female Protomelas Steveni's, I've noticed the male Albino, the only male of the species in the 180 gallon tank, shows little to no interest in the two regular females at all. I moved the female Albino back in after a week of rest from her last brood, and on sight, the male flashed and courted her all over the tank and still does any time he sees her, but again, basically ignores the two other females that are at least the same size as the Albino female, one is actually even bigger.
In talking with Vin, he thinks to wait until one of the 2 regular ones has the tube down and is ready to spawn to see. He may well be right, but I've had this pair over a month now and that window should have come open at least once by now. The male certainly spawns well with the Albino female, and my guess is that he doesn't recognize the 2 regular females as the same species. That's the impression I have deep down, but not sure exactly how you can prove that. Any thoughts on this or something else that may be another factor?
Vin had also mentioned, he wouldn't keep Lafasciata's with Phytophagus, which I think Barb and Brenda probably have the most to add on this subject. I know Lafasciata's have a higher aggression propensity, but this seems to be a bit more diluted in the more spacious 180 then they showed in the 100, plus I put a male female pair out of the 6 total I have, over in the 75, so it's 1 male and 3 females in the 180. He's spawned up 2 of the 3 females so far, and the third one should spawn any day now. The Fulu's seem to be doing quite well also, and I do not see much aggression between the two, if any at all. Given the females have no similar look what so ever, would the logic be based just on aggression only? We ran out of time when talking for me to ask him this, but I'm trying to figure why in a 6' x 24" footprint, would this be a bad idea?
As well, there is a chance I may end up only being able to have my 180 and my 75, and should that occur, obviously, I cannot breed at many species as I do now. If that time comes, I think it would be in my best interest to keep the 180 as a Victorian only tank. I have the input from Barb and Brenda on watching similar looking females, but would you also happen to have a suggestive list of species, if this were a Vic only tank, what you would keep in a 180? For current Vics, I have:
6 Astatilapia Lafasciata (Not a true Victorian, but you can't really classify them elsewhere) 2 male 4 female Astatilapia Aeneocolors 1 male left with 3 female Xistochromis Phytophagus (12 more on the way) 1 male, 2 possible female Pytochromis Salmon--Unsure now on the Pytochromis "Hippo Point" Salmons, good indicator these are possibly hybrids, but for the time being, let's assume they are Salmon's.
With that current grouping, and if I only end up with a 180 and 75, is that already too much, is there room for more and if so what could be added with little issues?
As it appears, the 100 is going to be a grow out fry tank for quite sometime as it's well over 400 total fry that need to get size to be sold/traded/moved or kept to be bred back, so the idea's of doing a Madagascar tank is likely pretty dead. Pytchochromis Oligocanthus really isn't all that threatend actually, so in the end I think my breeding pair and extra female will likely be sold, in favor of something more vulnerable. I do have the Polleni still, and it appears they continue to mature further, almost 1 year in keeping them, but no attempts to spawn just yet. By appearence, size, and body I still have no reason to think I don't have 3 male/female pairs. 2 of the ones I think are male in the 180 are now getting a more pronounced snoutlike look on the mouth/nose area and the coloring in there is shifting a bit. They are a likely size to vent and this week's water change, I might just do that and try to see. This species though, are VERY fast and very smart in that netting them up is a very difficult task.
Before any changes in the tanks I can keep are made though, I have enough time to make a gene improvement move though. I am probably going to sell/trade my male Flavus in favor of a wild caught male to breed back with the females. Currently, all females, (six total I believe) are breeding back with their father, and I have my second "runt" offspring from that. I have no reason to think that the original female was a sibling of the male that is breeding, and I did get a couple "runts" off their spawns in the past, and now, just one round into spawning with their father I got 2 already so I am thinking the gene pool might be getting too inbreed, plus adding a wild caught would probably improve things in there.
Likely fish going to get moved regardless will be the
Nimbochromis Venustus male--just such a large fish, nice looking, but not threatend in any way, and low selling value too.
Scianochromis Fryeri group--Added more females months ago, and still, they just don't seem to be spawning. Had a male 2 female group originally from 3 years ago, and I still have had only a handful of spawns off them. Nice looking again, but not very productive.
Pytchochromis Oligocanthus---First substrate spawner I got to spawn, and they actually have done very well in the 100 with 3 total spawns, 2 hatched, 1 grew out, but sheer numbers and spacial needs are tremendous, look is average to below average, and doubt there will be high interest in finding clients. Donations to CARES and the Bronx Aquarium are going to occur to trim numbers.
Vin acquired 12 Xistochromis Phytophagus off a seller I know in Long Island, and I'm going to take that group from him for 70, which I feel is a great deal considering the value of a group like that on the open market, would well be over 100. Vin and I do a great deal of trading and buying off each other so I usually get a lower rate off him anyways. Since finding the two other sites, I've started building up work with a few groups of other breeders, so I'm really going to feel like the last four years of work have gone for nothing if I can't keep the tanks I have now. My last thing I may do, and not sure what the big deal about doing it is, would be to enter a BAP (Breeders Award Program). I see other keepers doing this, and it might just be something of intrinsic value. Any thoughts on something like this?
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Post by jonv on Apr 27, 2009 8:00:38 GMT -5
Let's throw in one more subject, which if needed later on, I can split this part out into it's own thread. In the past, and from time to time now, I see Albino fish themselves sometimes shunned by hobbyists. Now I've heard the case that Albinoism itself is a genetic weakness, and I'm not in any position to argue or support this case as I'm not that familar with this aspect in the genetics itself. What I have done though is tried a more advanced search on this topic, using the Yahoo search engine, avoiding the use of Google, and trying the .org and .edu extensions, but not getting much light on this matter.
What I also have observed, is if I am putting fry and juvies in the 100 to grow out, the Protomelas fry always seem to get issues also. I put that one group of 1.5 inch younger fish in the 100 when I had the Polleni in there, and they pursued the fish like an Oscar chases feeders and demolished a group of 60 in less then 2 hours. Mistake learned, figuring this was just a size issue with the Polleni.
Last week when I moved up my Lombardoi which are growing out at a good rate, I of course ended up netting a few Obliquedins, Flavus, and Albino Protomelas fry. I can still see, due to size difference, the Obliquedins, and Flavus, about 7-8 of each ended up getting netted pursing the Lombardoi in the 15, but I also ended up with about the same amount of Protomelas Steveni Albino's, which I cannot locate in the 100 gallon. The size difference between the 1.5 month olds and the 3 week olds is about half an inch or so. Across the board on all species. I am concluding the Albino Steveni's must have been eaten again by even younger and smaller fish then the Polleni.
This triggered my mind to figure, there must be something about being Albino that makes it become more of a target as food then other fish. Vin had a thought that basically an Albino stands out from a group of fish more so then others, and that albino look is a sign of weaker fish. I just can't seem to find any documented material on this, so any facts or thoughts on this might be very useful. Is albinoism a trigger for other fish to target them as a food source and is it also making a fish weaker in general being Albino?
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