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Post by jonv on Apr 29, 2009 22:18:16 GMT -5
Off to the Bronx to pick up a colony of 12 Fulu to add to my current group. Will check in when I get back to see if anything worth while was posted.
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Post by jonv on Apr 30, 2009 11:49:01 GMT -5
I learned something last night and today, and I'm very convinced the "Fulu" I got sold back in Jan really aren't Fulu. Anyone remember that one time I was talking to Brenda and noted that her Rock Krib females look almost the same as mine? I'm sitting at Vin's last night, got his colony off that he bought out from a breeder in Long Island, Prontodilevery, who also sells on Aquabid too, and I started looking at these fish. I was like wow is this like a different varient of Fulu and Vin was like ummm no man, they don't have a varient why you ask? So I pulled up some more recent shots I took of my Fulu I'd been planning to share on here. Forgive the quality as it's distorted a bit by background light, but I think you can get a fairly clear image of the male in a few frames. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=042709_1350a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=042709_1351a.flvAnd a still i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/PICT0020-6.jpgI'm now going to pull some internet images of Fulu. This is a photo by Dr. Loiselle, and is posted on GCCA, so there is NO confusion I am saying this is NOT my shot or fish. www.gcca.net/fom/Xystichromis_phytophagus.htmcichlid-forum photo by David Hansen, again NOT my photo nor fish www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/x_phytophagus.phpEven better, are basically the same shots by the same people in comparison off freshwater madness, remarks removed by staff NOT my fish nor photo's or post. www.freshwatermadness.com/species-profiles-f19/species-profile-xystichromis-haplochromis-phytophagus-the-christmas-fulu-t128.htmI'm just trying to demonstrate what Vin and I looked at on these places, as compared to my shots, and it's fairly clear to me, they do not match at all. One distinct stand out here is the horizontal barring in my fish, and the Fulu shot's showing verticle barring. Based on this, which I think is too big of a difference to say it's just some kind of varient, I'm as positively convinced as possible, the fish sold to me from the seller in California are NOT fulu, and probably Rock Kribs like Brenda has, or worse, a hybrid. Now I do want to say something and make sure as best I can, I'm not putting down or attacking anyone on here. I'm just a bit surprised that with the shots I'd posted in the past, that no one had picked up on this or said something. I know, there is no responsibility to anyone to do that, but usually if pictures go up, in the past, I'd had private communications saying I think this might not be what you think it is, and I do appreciate that. Does anyone else at least agree with my conclusion on the fish I do have that they aren't Fulu though? The stock I just got off Vin, have the same verticle barring, and in fact, 2 males are already showing some color in front of the older male I showed here, and he does nothing what so ever to challenge them. I am thinking right now I owe Vin a big thanks for spotting this as well as picking up Pronto's stock and asking me first before anyone else if I wanted the colony.
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Post by Carl on Apr 30, 2009 13:23:01 GMT -5
Your fish does appear different from the referenced fish, but other than noticing this, my expertise here is minimal.
I think considering how many amateur breeders are out there, that being a hybrid is a good guess
Carl
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Post by jonv on Apr 30, 2009 13:27:34 GMT -5
The barring is the major aspect he spotted right off Carl, plus the coloring itself appears to be a bit off. I'd noticed in the past, this male really had a great deal of red and the yellow, but I'd kept waiting to see blue, and never did. If they are Rock Kribs, that's still pretty cool, but I think it'll throw off my mix. I did notice the male was rather assertive too. He kept the Matumbai Hunter in a cave for many days and wouldn't let him out. Not that a Fulu is a weenie, but just I didn't expect to see that. I think I might see if anyone wants to take this small group, so that it won't throw off the mix I have. At least I feel more confident that I have what I thought I had from before, and I've got a set of eyes looking out for me a hop skip and jump.
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Post by barbara on Apr 30, 2009 14:34:30 GMT -5
I'm terrible at ID, and unless it is fairly obvious, I am not one to say that something isn't what it is supposed to be.
My Fulus DO show some broken horizontal barring at the top, as do yours. They don't always show vertical barring. Sometimes it is darker than others. My fulus do show blue in the face, and red in the places yours do. Mine show green, however, where yours are showing yellow.
I'm not an expert on ID. I don't know for sure if those are Xystichromis phytophagus or Paralabidochromis sp. "Rock Krib" or a hybrid. I don't know how much you trust the seller.
I'm not going to tell someone they have a hybrid when I don't know for sure. I'm not going to say I know something I don't. If I tell you that I'm sure a fish isn't what it is supposed to be, you can pretty much take that to the bank, because I am bad at identifying species, and it must be very obvious if I see it.
Maybe in 10 years of working with Victorians, I'll be able to look at a picture and say what it is for sure. At this time, I can't do it.
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Post by brenda on Apr 30, 2009 14:48:01 GMT -5
Jon, that is exactly why I asked in that pm if you were sure your fulus were fulus as I too thought they were rock kribs after you posted these newest pics. I instantly looked at your male and said that looks like my rock krib.
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Post by jonv on Apr 30, 2009 14:50:59 GMT -5
The barring part was something I compared just what you picked up on Barb, and pointed out that there is some, but as you said, broken, and these guys are all solid. I never could find an image of a Fulu that had a clear unbroken horizontal bar in any image. At best, they were just like what you said, broken, but nothing even all the way through, which jumped out at me, something wasn't right.
Then when Brenda put up her Rock Krib pics, I noticed just how similar her females and my females looked too, but I never thought to look deeper into this so now I feel a bit lazy on that Barb. This male I got, he has like no blue at all, where some images on the Fulu colors have almost a pale blue face and the little stripes near the eyes. I'm quite sure, each male can have a slightly different color pattern in which some have more green, some have more red, some more blue, this one seems clear on a red and yellow/green only, and I can't seem to find any blue at all.
Do you think with a clear void of vert. bars this is a sign? The seller I didn't know was first time selling/buying but had numerous feedback given. Prontodelievery I also had seen posted and in fact when Vin called me and said he got a colony out in Long Island, I pretty much had a feeling those were his. Pronto shows great shots of the colony and mom and dad. Seeing the new fish in the tank too Barb, it's pretty clear, they have a completely different pattern to them then the older ones, and I can't figure out why I never picked up on that before.
If you see something I post and suspect it, it's better you ask or see if I can get a better shot, as you have deeper resources of eyes out there then I do. Vin is 30 years experienced, however at the same time, Vics aren't his specialty as you are, he's more of a Mbuna person, but he's also good at picking up on certain patterns fish show, and uses his Ad Konings book of wild caught shots. He's showed me how to spot certain aspects of hybridization in how a fish will have a body feature way outside the norm of a species.
What I've learned from you is looking at compatibility on levels that you really don't get explained very well in other cichlid places, so just be direct Barb. If something looks odd, it doesn't help to bite your toungue, at least bring up the thought. I think only a stupid person is going to get mad at you pointing out something you see, as it could only help. If a person needs to do a bit deeper research to verify something, that only helps. If someone gets offended at suggesting something doesn't look right, they have the wrong attitude to begin with. I've just started this year collecting Vics, I'm not on any level to question you if you think something doesn't look right. You've picked up on other things before Barb, like we've talked about that Salmon, and while I'm pretty sure it's not something like a Bythobate or Snyderea, the point you make about the different coloring and the line on the mouth is very valid. It would very well make me suspect that it's tainted then, and the person that sold them off didn't pick up on this. If you hadn't said anything, I'd probably be sitting here thinking these are good to go, breed them and pass them on. You only help if you suggest something. And certainly, no one would call you stupid or an idiot if you thought something wasn't what it was, but you were wrong either. To me it's better to err on the side of catching a hybrid then say nothing and let a hybrid pass. If you verify it isn't a hybrid, no harm no foul.
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Post by jonv on Apr 30, 2009 14:55:49 GMT -5
And Brenda too yes, you mentioned the Salmon, I don't recall the Fulu one, but you might have said that, I could check, but no need. If you mentioned it, then I didn't put attention on that aspect. It's actually a nice looking male, but not the species I wanted. I'm thinking now I should try to verify they are that or maybe something different. I'm not going to destroy them, but I think in my best interest, I probably should move them out of the tank, and try to trade or sell them. I don't want to pass on a hybrid either, so now I'm kind of stuck on what to do with that old group.
I have at least 2 males in that colony of 12 I just got, can already see the coloring showing. The suspect male, he doesn't challenge them at all.
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Post by barbara on Apr 30, 2009 14:58:11 GMT -5
See, what I'm trying to say is I don't know. I don't know what they are. I don't know if they are fulu or not.
I am fairly good at knowing what to mix, water perimeters, and care. My specialty is not ID. Not at all. If I have a question on something, I will ask, but that it not my skill. I am not good at picking up the subtle differences of barring and slight color variation.
If I had a doubt, I would have told you. But I did not. I had no clue. It's that simple. I didn't say anything because to me, they could have been fulus. They could also be Rock Kribs. I know they aren't "Kyoga Flamebacks" or "Rubies." But I'd also hazard a guess of "Dayglow."
So, please understand that I did not know. I am not called upon for identifying fish. I'm called on for how to care for them, and maybe someday my eyes will be trained to spot the subtle. But for now, Brenda is much better at picking up on those things than I am.
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Post by jonv on Apr 30, 2009 15:11:13 GMT -5
Ok Barb but if I acquire something in the future, and you do see something that doesn't look right, I need you to speak up and say something though, so don't worry about what anyone's going to think. I'd rather you said something in error then nothing at all.
I guess at this point in time, I'm paycheck betting certain, they aren't Fulu's. Whatever they are though, be it Rock Kribs, or Flamebacks or Rubies, the thing now is what to do. Do you have any opinions on that? My thoughts are I should get rid of them. If you think they could be a compatible mix, I guess that's worth considering. I don't have to act by tomorrow, I am just feeling it's going to screw up the mix plan I'd been working for.
Dr. Loiselle has an office in Brooklyn, not sure if it would even be worth the time or fear of wasting his time to bring them to him to have a look. I'm leaning towards getting rid of them unless you can share anything different you think I should consider, or Brenda too.
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Post by barbara on Apr 30, 2009 15:17:00 GMT -5
If I know something isn't right, I have told you in the past. I'll tell you again, but like I said, it has to be really obvious for me to know.
I think you need a positive ID before you decide what to do with them. I'd say post pictures where someone might be able to identify them. Brenda has some friends that might be able to help. I'm sure she will be checking in on this, and will give some opinions.
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Post by jonv on Apr 30, 2009 15:27:23 GMT -5
I'll give that a shot Barb, and given the light of recent things too, let me make something clear and certain for all eyes.
I'm not blaming you for anything nor Brenda. Neither one of you said, hey buy this auction. That's me. I know how sometimes people reading things without actually hearing someone talk, can take written words and read something into what someone is posting on the internet, thus changing the connotation of what someone is saying. You can believe that if I were down south or in the midwest near either of you or Brenda, I'd be visiting and asking and sharing things with both of you in person, just like how I have Vin over in the Bronx. I want to make it clear before anyone gets a feeling or suggestion I'm attacking or downing either of you ladies. I wouldn't never say it because it doesn't apply, but I just want to make clear, I am the kind of person if I think someone is wrong, full of it or a liar or whatever, I don't screw around with suggestions or mixed up words, I just say it. There's some frustration I got something different then what the auction said, but no matter what, that can't be put on anyone but me. I want to make sure this is very clear, I'm not saying anything bad about either of you ladies as I know people tend to put words in people's mouths. If I said that in a way you feel was negative towards either of you, I'm sorry about that, no intent for that.
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Post by jonv on May 2, 2009 16:11:54 GMT -5
After doing some in person discussions with Vin, making use of the photo's and video's I've gotten, basically I id'd that the Ps. Flavus aren't pure, and basically have Tropheops in them. I'm going to weed these out, however the wife really likes that dom male very much so I will basically let her take the male, a few females for him, the Hongi Red Tops, all my Peacocks, and the Astatotilapia Aeneocolors will be the population in the 75.
The 180, the rest of the impure Flavus will be taken to the store, the Bythobates also, the Lombardoi, I have the Venustus listed which will leave me with 2 pair of Polleni, the Oligocanthus pair, the Protomelas group, the Rock Kribs and Fulu, with the 1 Dubosi, 1 male and 3 female Astatotilapia Lafasciata, and the Pytochromis Salmons, which after looking at them, I'm not sure they are pure either.
Second trimming will have me donate either the Polleni and Oligocanthus adults to CARES or the Bronx Aquarium, as it appears I can't sell them, no interest at all, the Salmon's will most likely go as well. Then I am going to obtain a wild caught group of Ps. Flavus, and a different bloodline of Hongi, which will be the Mbuna I keep in the 180, bold move here, adding 6 female Dubosi, the Fulu, and will be looking to add in a third Vic along the lines Barb and Brenda suggested, which I'm leaning towards the Piebald type, however if I can find a species that is highly endangered such like Brenda did, I'd like to be able to keep a group like that to do my part to help. I'm working over a large but bold move here, and I'm a bit nervous about trying to breed the Dubosi with the Vics and Mbuna, however, I've gotten some input from 3 different other keeper/breeders which indicate, additional rocks and the placement of them should allow for this. I'm a bit nervous about trying it, and if Barb, Brenda, or 8 if he's watching has some input they can offer, I'd be quite open to hear it. I'm actually not all that convinced it's going to work like they say, yet I see their 125's and 150's holding 6-7 colonies of both Mbuna and Tropheus, I can't find a way to argue with that. I'll need lots of luck and hope I think but I'm going to go for it unless someone thinks this is a very very bad idea.
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Post by barbara on May 2, 2009 20:52:20 GMT -5
I don't know. I've never seen it done, so I have no opinion. The Tropheus may be too aggressive for the rest of the fish, that would be my largest concern. I think the Fulus and the latifasciata should be a good combo, for the Vics, but I am really not sure about the whole set up.
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Post by kagome on May 3, 2009 0:28:08 GMT -5
Jon, the fish you were sold that are hybrids and therefore not what you paid for, is there any sort of recourse you can take with the seller? It just seems really, really crappy that you paid good money for fish that are hybrids. It's like paying for a brand new Corvette but getting a broken down minivan.
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Post by jonv on May 3, 2009 15:22:17 GMT -5
Kagome,
On those Flavus, nothing other then tell the seller, who's on Cichlid-forum, Aquabid, and e-Bay where I got them off of, that the line is tainted. Likely they are going to argue it as well. In the African cichlid hobby, it's a rough hobby. Purists and breeders and so many aspects, that I wish it really could be a simple thing to tell the guy hey I got some bad fish.
I don't think it was intentional either. I've had this group like 3 years now, posted many pics, not a single person out of a large number of people picked up on it, I certainly never thought a thing until Vin and Jeff said, you know, look at these shots of wild Flavus, and look at yours. The body height, from top to bottom is very large for a flavus, and it's very round as well, not really fitting the typical pseudotropheus lines. Then they showed me some shots of Tropheops, and I was like wow, I really could see the body shape matched well on this species, but not the Pseudotropheus, and how as well, it would be easy for a male of either species to mistake a female of the other if kept in the same tank.
If this were a recent purchase, yeah I probably could do something. There are some good sellers out there if they make a mistake, they'll fix it, but 3 years in with the group I kind of have to take a hit on it. Just that I'm really thankful since I started getting breeding adult females, I didn't go all out selling these fish and trashing my name before I got started. The Labs, Venustus, and Taiwan Reefs all checked out ok. The Hongi I didn't have to check out as I got them from Vin who got his stock directely from Atlantis. I've caught on my own eye actually some hybrid Peacocks that Petland sold, I took them with no intention of breeding them, just something nice to look at in the tank.
You're right though Kagome, it does suck but not much I can do but take action to correct this, and keep the future stock as pure as possible. Vin and Jeff both pointed out, I've been squashing my ability to keep more species in my 180 with actually not using enough rocks and the placement of it, recommended I get rid of the gravel or at least lower it and change over to crushed coral and Holey Rock. First step, once money comes open, I'll fix the substrate, then get new stock. It's probably going to take months to do this because of how much pure stock from Daves or Atlantis is going to run and in these times, money is tight.
Another way to look at this too, is if I had had good Flavus from the get go, with all the Juvies I have in the tank now which are worthless in terms of trading/selling is that I lost at least 100-200 dollars off them. I've got a good 60 plus total juvies in a month could be sold, even at a low end price of 2 a piece, that adds up. Lesson learned no sense for me to cry about it, it's just going to set back the breeding plans I had for Mbuna by a bit. Basically about the only line I'll have going will be the Hongi for Mbuna. From here on in, anything when I say I have I can move, there will be no doubts about the line. Thankfully as well, the Madagascars are fine in that term, and most of the Vics are, though I was sold Fulu that turned out the be Rock Kribs. I still have to get the pytochromis "Hippo point" Salmon looked at a bit deeper, but I will get this all fixed.
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Post by Carl on May 4, 2009 12:35:01 GMT -5
My thoughts as to those who sold you the hybrids is similar to you Jon, I really do not think you will solve much accusing others who may have in sold you these fish with the best of intentions. So I think this is best left alone IMO and maybe try and locate a new source for future fish, and since you have a lot of Cichlid "connections", I do not see this as being a problem for you outside of maybe paying a more, but his is where paying more is worth the cost IMO.
Carl
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Post by jonv on May 4, 2009 13:20:52 GMT -5
Yeah, not much choice really Carl. I do believe the best match for what was sold to me as Fulu are really Rock Kribs from the picture images I've seen. To top it off, one of the few females I have left, I found her holding last night, so go figure! Then just to see if I could find the person's ID name on aquabid that sold them, I find someone else basically selling the same type of fish listing them as Fulu. www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwcichlidsv&1242019893I mean if you look at that fish, and you look at the images I posted, one by Dr. Loiselle, you can't really mistake this now that you see the comparison, but it makes me wonder how and why people would be selling off Rock Kribs as Fulu. I did mail them to let them know I think if they look at images of Fulu and their fish, they'll see it doesn't really match. Yeah Peter Rubin of Atlantis and probably Dave since there would be no question on the stock bloodline. Will cost more but will make having to wonder if what I have is that go away. Dave's giving 10% off to EastCoasters, but you just wouldn't believe the person that runs that site, I got this nasty little email when I posted information about how he might want to use his statistics he's bragging about on the site, and accused me of being a spy for another place LOL Oh well, man what can you do? If you give good information and people want to call you this or that and not listen, whatever comes out of it, isn't my problem. If I bought like a 100.00 of fish from Dave, I'm not going to stress over getting my 10.00 off. It's nice he offers it, but 10.00 isn't going to kill me. I'd rather pay the 10.00 then get my name in there as an EastCoastCichlid member after being accused of being a "spy" after offering stats advice. He can, well, I can't use the proper language in this case, but I think you know... I had to retract my Flavus ad on NYcichlids, and someone actually still wants some, which is a blessing. They know they are tainted but they ran out of fish and aren't really going to breed, just would like to have something to look at, so that's even better. I'm going to let the guy just take them since I can't do anything with them anyways, but will still have to figure what to do with the 60 plus fry of them I have. I'm moving out my Lombardoi (Kenyi) group as well in favor of more Hongi, building up a Dubosi colony, and making room for the Vics.
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Post by brenda on May 4, 2009 18:26:25 GMT -5
Goodluck sorting out all your fish.
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Post by jonv on May 4, 2009 20:22:03 GMT -5
The trimming part should be the easiest Brenda. Getting the valid new ones will be the challenge due to money, but Vin is very good about extending me time. For example, the colony I picked up off him, the Fulu's, I can pay him for that in 2 weeks and with him doing business with Peter, I can have Vin pick up fish here and there, and pay him after on as he knows I'm good for it. Ordering from Dave though, won't have that same benefit at which time I'm hoping Dave has female Aeneocolors. That damn Jardini trimmed me out of most of them.
Just finished the first round of water changes and decor changes, should be able to get some shots up here in a bit.
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