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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 8:02:44 GMT -5
Tank Size: 125 gallon Age of the tank: 1 year pH: 7.6 Ammonia: 0 NitrAtes: unsure nitrites: 0 GH/KH: hard Temperature: 76 Fish: Angels, gouramis, rams, dojo loaches, kuhli loaches, assorted tetras, black ghost knife, cories Symptoms: This is driving me nuts! I started having fish death after a bunch of Angels paired off. I chalked this up to aggression, and kept only 2, which aren't mated. I saw one fish with damage, a Pearl gourami. He died. I have dead fish every day now.
I'm still having deaths. I don't know why, but my best guess was costia. I've been treating the tank with Ich Attack, because it is organic, and I was hoping that the broad spectrum of treatment would cure this. I am still losing fish, but there are NO signs of illness. Fish eat until their death. A little hiding, but that's typical. Tetras are schooling, Angels are small, not hurting anything. The Rams, which I figured I'd lose first, are fine. Gouramis I'm losing, cories, dojo loaches...I have no idea. Help!!! I can't treat if there is nothing to see. I do 50% water changes weekly, last one was 6 days ago when I started treating the tank with Ich Attack.
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 9:45:18 GMT -5
Herbal Ich Attack is a broad spectrum treatment for fungus and single cell external parasites (such as Ich), but is this product is not very strong for serious infestation, nor does it have any internal capabilities that I know off. What symptoms do the fish have that leads you to believe it is costia? See this article: Aquarium Answers; Velvet,CostiaSince you are really good with pictures, could you provide a pic of a fish "on deaths door" Since your Rams are doing well and since Costia is often worse in poor water conditions, I have my doubts as to Costia. One thought is an Iridovirus since they are a virus specific to Gouramis, however these virus generally affect Rams Cichlids as well Is there any red on the fins prior to death? One thought is to set up a hospital tank just for the Gouramis, give them a medicated bath (possibly with Nitrofurazone as well) and treat this hospital tank with Metronidazole and KanmycinAny more symptoms would help. Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 9:58:41 GMT -5
Carl, the only thing I have seen is the one Gourami that had something thatlooked like an injury on the top fin. That's the only clue I had, and I thought that was from an attack. Then fish started dying. They all look perfectly normal, but are dead. No red gills, no red fins, nothing. The one that looked injured has already passed.
Unfortunately, there is no behavior that would show me which one is ill. They're just dead. I just don't understand. I watch the tank a lot since this has started, and I see NOTHING that would show me which the next victim would be. I'm always surprised when one dies. And it's not just the gouramis, it's dojo loaches, cories, and I've lost one Rasbora.
If I thought a hospital tank would help, I have one ready, but I don't know which fish to quarantine. I've been talking with Brenda about this since the beginning, and we are both stumped. I was certain that this was casualties of the pairing Angels, since the aggression level sky-rocketed in a few days. But I no longer have those fish, and this is still happening.
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 10:26:37 GMT -5
The addition of the angels could have allowed an opportunistic pathogen take hold, but I lean toward this just being a coincidence at this point. I am honestly guessing myself at this point since there is no "smoking gun" symptom. You may have to throw a smorgasborg of treatments. in a hospital tank (or even the main tank). This would mean using gram positive and gram negative treatments at the same time. Instead of what I noted in my last post, consider a medicated 30-45 minute bath using Methylene Blue, salt, and Metrondizole. In a quarantine/hospital tank use Erythromycin and Kanamycin (this will wipe out much of your nitrifying bacteria, so watch ammonia levels) See this article for a list of different mads and whether they are gram negative or positive: Aquarium MedicationsI will think more on this, but I am running late for a meeting. One more quick thought; is possibly a re-start on this tank, UV Sterilization, and regular addition of positive mineral ions via the addition of these minerals manual or even via flow through water changes (where small amounts of water is constantly changed) Carl
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 11:20:47 GMT -5
sorry to hear of this Barbara.....it's different when you know the cause - it's horrible and friustrating when you don't - hope you find a solution quick - sorry I can't be more help
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 12:27:41 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm really stumped. The fish eat, I watch to see who doesn't eat. I've not changed the food, and they still rush the front of the tank at feeding time. I feed a variety of foods, because of the variety of the fish, but my main foods are a Cichlid flake and spirulina flake combo, algae wafers, and shrimp pellets. Those are daily. Every other day I feed something frozen, like bloodworms or brine shrimp, because of the Knife.
With Black Ghost Knife in this tank, and being so sensitive, I've been watching him closely. I've seen no problems with him, although, he hides a lot, which is typical. He looks great, and has several hides available. I shoo him out daily, just to get a look at him. The Gouramis still have their color, the rams look great, the Angels...well, they are as social as ever. Possibly even a little more social, as they don't have anyone bullying them anymore.
The fish that died last night happened to be a Pearl Gourami. I pulled him out, and took a good look at him. Nothing visible. No marks at all, no spots, no signs of illness. It's to the point now where I'm considering just crashing that tank, pulling all of the fish and putting them into a container, doing 100% water change and killing all of my bio, and starting over. Readding the fish into clean water, and going from there. I know that's a drastic step, but without being able to diagnose a problem, I don't know what else to do.
Part of the frustration is before this, I had never even had a case of ich in my tanks. I am totally clueless at diagnosing the problem, and in this one I see no clues as to what the problem is.
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 12:38:45 GMT -5
I can sympathize w/ you there - nothing ever goes wrong and you get used to that and then BAM! how many fish have you lost out of the total population? tearing down and starting over is a b!tch - you put it off and put it off in hopes that things get better....I've been through it, Kagome's been through it - is there anywhere you can take a water sample - what has me miffed is that the rams are still fine which takes away the idea that something is wrong w/ the water - maybe pulling all the fish in question out and isolating them and seeing how the rest do would help
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 12:44:08 GMT -5
quick question - you never gave a nitrate reading and how do you keep rams in such hard water w/ such a high pH? what kind of rams? I was always told pH around 7 and soft water conditions, not that that has anything to do w/ your current situation - check your nitrates though - one small missing piece may help solve this thing.....
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 12:57:17 GMT -5
I am still trying to come up with something, but in the meantime many bacterial pathogens (such as Columnaris), are less virulent in cooler water, as well many Iridoviruses in fish have anecdotal evidence that shows that cooler water helps control the spread of the viruses as well. So another suggestion (along with the above), is to slowly lower your water temperature to around 72 F (lower yet is best for Columnaris, but the problem is finding the "sweet spot" where you do not cause more problems than you are solving by lowering tank temperatures). Again these are admittedly shots in the dark, but at this point there is not much more that can be done IMO. I will continue to think about this though. Carl
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 13:06:22 GMT -5
I have kept Rams, both German and Bolivian in higher pH and especially higher GH. With pH, I think the key is to keep it stable and simply not too high (such as much above 7.8). With GH, this is an area in aquatic chemistry where hardness concerns are over rated, as this measure often misses what minerals are exactly present and more important the bio availability as well as effect on Redox such as positive mineral ions vs. depleted. Here is a quote from my AQUARIUM GH, KH, Ph, MINERAL CATIONS/ELECTROLYTES; GH & Calcium Sectionarticle: "Think of it this way; a storage battery "works" only when a positive and a negative electrode are present to maintain an electrical current. When the positive plates become exhausted, the battery is no longer any good."I note in this article the importance of calcium cations even for Ram Cichlids. Sorry to change the direction of this thread (or lecture), but I felt this is an important aspect, especially in disease prevention. Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 14:22:29 GMT -5
No Carl, if whatever is going on is a learning experience for someone else, then maybe at least a positive will come from this.
I don't know why these rams live...but they do. I was surprised that they did actually, but these are the only ones I haven't had a problem with.
As for nitrates, I can get a test done, but I do 50% water changes a week. I have a test kit for it, but I don't have any idea how old it is. This last water change, 6 days ago, was closer to 75%, because I was going to start dosing the tank, and after reading the instructions, it said NOT to change the water during treatments.
What I am considering at this point is catching all of the fish, totally tearing down the tank, soaking my plants in a solution of salt water, and rinsing the gravel/flourite combination. Then, setting it back up, adding fresh water and some cultured media from another tank, which is more heavily stocked, and calling it good. If the fish live, they live. I've almost written this tank off anyway, to be honest. Any other treatment I could use would chance killing all but my Gouramis and Angels. I've read on several meds that my knife and my cories would probably die, and my loaches...the only possible positive is being able to go a different direction with the tank, which I've been considering.
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 14:29:46 GMT -5
How many fish? I have no idea. At least one a day for about 2 weeks. I've lost 3 Pearl Gouramis, at least 4 cories, at least 2 dojo loaches, 1 Rasbora, one Orange Von Rio tetra...that's what I can think of off the top of my head. I wasn't keeping a count, but it's really depressing. Plus I gave away 3 pairs of gorgeous Angels, because I thought they were the problem.
My biggest problem is the Ghost knife. He's too big to go in any empty tank I have set up at this point. I would consider tearing the tank down and moving fish around, but he's going to be an issue at 8 inches. I don't want to spread this problem, of course, but I do have some empty tanks, but none big enough for him to be in.
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 14:39:29 GMT -5
personally, chasing the unknown at this point is just prolonging your frustration - if it were me I'd start over - I know I'm gonna catch flak for saying this but sometimes you can only go just so far
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 14:49:24 GMT -5
You know, I agree. The thing is, out of the fish I have left, the only ones that won't be affected by the meds are the Angels and the Gouramis. I've almost written off all of the other fish at this point. I'm starting to consider them a dead loss, and if I were to restock the tank, I'd have to break it down anyway, as to not spread this to any other fish.
No flack from me. If I started treating with other meds, how would I know if it was the disease killing the fish, or the drugs? That's my problem at this point. I'd love to save the fish I have, but I don't know what to do. If they got a 100% water change, I could jump start the cycle by using other media, and do water changes...sigh.
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 14:58:26 GMT -5
no matter what course of action you take, it's not going to be enjoyable or easy or inexpensive - it will be time consuming, but at least you know you'll be starting fresh and worry free
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 15:56:37 GMT -5
personally, chasing the unknown at this point is just prolonging your frustration - if it were me I'd start over - I know I'm gonna catch flak for saying this but sometimes you can only go just so far No flak from me either, sometimes this is the simplest solution (I have done this myself for clients). My only concern is that the living fish may still transfer whatever the problem is, especially if it is a systemic infection. If this is an opportunistic infection the chance of transfer is lower. The only area where I may disagree is the aspect of medication killing all fish but the Gouramis and Angels. Knowing each medications side effects can greatly minimize this, for instance Tetracyline can lower red blood cell count in fish, so increased circulation and water changes between each dose is a must. Knowing how certain meds work in different pH such as Nitrofurazone which is more effective in low pH (in marine tanks I have observed more harm than good with this medication), but it is a very effective medication when used correctly. Either way, I am truly sorry for the heartache of this decision, which I know it is easy for me to give advice when it is not my pets. Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 8, 2009 19:05:28 GMT -5
what i`d do first is to take the rams and the knife and put them in the hospital tank....they are unaffected it seems....so if they are stronger and their numbers are fewer, it is better to move them and do as carl said....medicate the hell out of the show tank....very lil to lose. i am still not convinced this is any pathogen....when the lights go out...they may be chased to the point of death. if this fails, then maybe the tear down. also....if you could spread out fins and take pics of the victims, we may be able to see things that were overlooked....
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 19:12:30 GMT -5
I'm going to wait for another fish death before I do anything else besides finish the last dose of medication. My husband is out of town, and when I said I wanted to break the tank down, he wasn't happy. I can understand that, we put a lot of work into it, and picking the stock.
Bikeguy, you might be right. I had thought of that, but I've never seen my knife be aggressive. He shares his hide with whatever fish is nearby, the big pleco used to run him out of his favorite hides. I'm not certain what is going on, but it's really weird.
I'll get my camera out for the next victim. Maybe you all can spot something, but as yet, I've seen nothing. I went over the last fish that died pretty well, and I couldn't spot a thing wrong with it, other than the obvious...it being dead.
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 19:21:15 GMT -5
I think bikeguy may have a great point, especially since the few symptoms you have noted point toward an opportunistic Columnaris infection, and since stress is one of the major contributers to a Columnaris outbreak, this makes a lot of sense. As well, since you keep excellent care of your aquarium (the pictures alone tell this story), this makes the possibility of pathogens (such as Aeromonas) that are brought on by poor water parameters less likely. Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 19:31:24 GMT -5
This could be it. I don't know, but the only fish I have seen with any issues that was still alive was a Gourami, and it did have a sore, which I thought might have been from an attack. What would be the best treatment with the sensitive fish I still have in my tank, and also, considering I have Ich Attack in my tank still? Should I bother with the last dose of the Ich Attack?
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