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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 19:42:33 GMT -5
aren't rams supposed to be extremely vulnerable to columnaris? for some reason it's sticking in my head as to what may have killed off the last ram I had.....sorry if I'm wrong
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Post by Carl on Apr 8, 2009 19:49:54 GMT -5
This could be it. I don't know, but the only fish I have seen with any issues that was still alive was a Gourami, and it did have a sore, which I thought might have been from an attack. What would be the best treatment with the sensitive fish I still have in my tank, and also, considering I have Ich Attack in my tank still? Should I bother with the last dose of the Ich Attack? Using your last does of Ich Attack would not hurt (even if it did not help either) since it helps treat fungus/saprolegnia and this often is a problem where Columnaris is a problem. Raising salt and lowering water temperatures are proven basic methods of treatment for Columnaris. Medicated baths for fish small enough to handle also aid in recovery considerably. I would recommend Potassium Permanganate over Methylene Blue for Columnaris, but this is getting increasingly hard to find. As for medications, I have never had an adverse reaction with Kanamycin when used as directed in any fish, Minocycline can also be used (not with Kanamycin), but is is less effective in hard water due to calcium absorption. Nitrofurazone can be used with Kanamycin for increased effectiveness, although it is less effective the higher the pH and on RARE occasions some scaless fish such as your knife can be poisoned from it. See this article as well: Columnaris Infections in FishThis one has more about baths: Aquarium Disease Prevention; Section 9, BathsCarl
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Post by babygeige on Apr 8, 2009 20:05:30 GMT -5
Wow, sorry to hear about the problem Barbara! I had a problem similar to this a couple of months ago in my 10 gal. I lost 5 of my celestial pearl danios (they vanished) in a matter of a couple of weeks and then I lost a white cloud that was perfectly fine an hour before I found him dead. Fortunately since the white cloud died, the attrition has stopped but I never did figure it out.
I hope your problem gets better soon!
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 20:13:12 GMT -5
Thanks. I took one heater off of the tank, and will adjust the other one to off tomorrow. I'll start dosing with salt as well. I do my last dose of medication tomorrow too.
I appreciate all of the advice. It's been crazy.
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 21:22:23 GMT -5
OK, well, when checking out the tank, the second heater was unplugged! So, it's running with no heat right now. Being such a big tank, it's gonna take a while to cool. I added 2 cups of salt. Some of the fish won't be very happy about that, but the same fish wouldn't like the medications, so I did what I had to do.
I have another gourami showing some symptoms. He has what looks to be an injury, but I know better now. I'm grabbing the camera now.
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 21:54:28 GMT -5
Now that I know what I am seeing, there is an early stage to this as well. The top fin seems...crumpled? Like it doesn't want to stand up move like on a normal Gourami. This is the only symptom I've seen. Hope this helps. They all want to clump together, and the Angels are camera hogs, so it was really hard to get pictures.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 8, 2009 21:59:22 GMT -5
Carl may have something here....the dorsal seems to have a lil internal bleeding.....
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 22:01:27 GMT -5
I don't know if you can tell from these pictures, but the fin is missing. It's just a stump left. I'll try to get better pictures, but they are freaking out from the flash, and I'm having a difficult time getting them to hold still.
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 22:22:23 GMT -5
OK, got a pic of normal fin and one more of missing fin
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 8, 2009 22:25:18 GMT -5
yeah....Carl definatly is onto something here
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Post by kagome on Apr 9, 2009 0:39:32 GMT -5
Barbara, I really, really feel for you. I know how much this must just totally suck, especially when you're running around like crazy trying to figure out what on earth is going wrong. I would beat myself up, saying, "But I take really good care of my fish, why are they dying on me?" In all the years I've kept fish I had never even had a case of ich and then I got that nasty strep stuff in my tank and had to dump the whole thing. I am so sorry this is going on and I hope that you can figure it out and solve it soon. If it ends up that you have to tear down the tank and start over don't torture yourself about it, sometimes that's what has to be done. Rest assured that you do take excellent care of your fish and this is not your fault, just a case of rotten luck.
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Post by Carl on Apr 9, 2009 8:49:08 GMT -5
This definitely has the appearance of a serious Columnaris infection, and possibly the Angel pair were the trigger and the knife as Bill (bikeguy) suggested has added stress as well (such as at night). I would recommend a bath using either Methylene Blue or Potassium Permangante (preferred) as well as salt at 2-4 teaspoons per gallon of bath water. You can add these chemicals directly to the wound prior to or after the bath. Hydrogen Peroxide can also be added directly to the wound (some have used Hydrogen Peroxide to the bath instead of MB or PP, but I have never used this method and have some reservations). This bath can also have Nitrofurazone added as well at double (or even triple) normal tank dose, but it cannot be mixed with Potassium Permanganate, only Methylene Blue. Hospital tank use as earlier noted (away from the knife) may be a good idea and then use Kanamycin or Kanamycin with Nitrofurazone. Carl
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Post by brenda on Apr 9, 2009 8:49:51 GMT -5
Very well said kagome. I agree Barbara we all have rotten luck at one time or another.
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Post by barbara on Apr 9, 2009 9:37:11 GMT -5
Can most of the fish in this tank handle that? I read that tetras, corys, and loaches couldn't handle all of this.
I bumped my salt levels up to 1 tablespoon to each 5 gallons, and my temp should be around 72 right now. I'll check it, but the heaters are unplugged now. I can use more salt, if necessary, and definitely treat the Gouramis away from the rest, but I'm concerned that the majority of the fish will not be able to be treated like this. The Gouramis don't make up 1/2 of the stock of this tank, although size wise, they might.
Thanks Kagome and Brenda for the sympathies. This has been driving me crazy. I do my last treatment of the Ich Attack today, then I'll start new meds.
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Post by jonv on Apr 9, 2009 10:13:41 GMT -5
Barb,
The treatment option Carl just listed in his last post, I have used that myself in the 180 and it worked VERY well. I did have a couple fish that were just too far along to be saved, but it began to spread out to everyone in the tank so I was able to save like 95% of the stock with this treatment regimine. The Kanaplex in conjunction with Furan II is great! The Meth Blue baths seem to accelerate the reversal as well.
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Post by barbara on Apr 9, 2009 16:17:17 GMT -5
I wanted to say thanks to everyone for their help and patience in helping me. I was able to get some of the meds listed, and I'm in the process of giving baths and moving fish. I'm going to have to treat a smaller tank, because it was impossible to get the amount of Kanaplex necessary to treat the 125...so everyone is moving into the 75. Then I'll salt bomb the 125 empty, after draining and refilling. I realize I'll have to restart the bio, but I have plenty for that.
I'll keep you all updated on the progress. We'll have to see how this goes.
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Post by brenda on Apr 9, 2009 16:29:45 GMT -5
Goodluck!!!
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 9, 2009 16:54:47 GMT -5
when you say "salt bomb", (I guess I'm going to learn something today) what do you mean? I've always bleached everything (filter, air hoses, heaters) and rinsed the crap out of it afterwards
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Post by barbara on Apr 9, 2009 17:48:23 GMT -5
OK, that was my term. I'm going to add cup after cup of salt to the 125. I'm going to do several 100% water changes, and keep adding salt. I can't get enough medication to treat it the way I should...so I'm going to improvise. It will be a 10 day process...at least.
With a tank this size, for me to be able to bleach it and rinse it well on my own, I'm going to have difficulties. My husband is out of town for a week, so I'm pretty much on my own.
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 9, 2009 18:10:20 GMT -5
thanks for the explanation - Call Bikeguy - he's a certified diver now I believe and a well trained tank cleaning specialist - serious about Bill! sorry, I know what a pain it is to bleach a tank, not that size though - can only imagine - I did (2) 20's this winter inside and that was no fun - you are blessed that in all the years you've had fish you never had a serious problem til now - hope that helps a little and I wish you the best of luck!
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