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Post by barbara on Apr 9, 2009 18:26:26 GMT -5
Yeah, and I need to clean all of the substrate. My husband isn't going to be happy, because he didn't want me to do this, but I don't see another option. Not if I can't complete a cycle of medication on the big tank. I might use bleach, I will ask him...but it's gonna be hard, no matter what I do.
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Post by jonv on Apr 9, 2009 21:00:17 GMT -5
Barb,
If it's just Ick we are battling here, your salt bomb, raised temps should do a number on it, but I'd opt for a Copper Sulfate dosing. I don't think you have any inverts you're worried about or plants, but if you do have either, then just go with the quick cure.
Now if it's Columnaris we are looking at, if you can't get the Kanaplex, at least run Furan II. Running Furan II in conjunction with a Meth Blue bath should help quite a bit. The Columnaris is affecting the skin area, and the meth blue will help with O2 uptake and repair on the site area, while the Furan attacks the pathogen itself. I just found it worked quite well within a week when using both Furan II and Kanaplex. I build up the dosage over time too. Not added all at once, I put in one treatment dosage one day, then another the next and a third one after, let it sit for 3 days or so, then did a 50% change, let it sit again for 3 days, and did another change. Haven't had too many issues since. I did see it flare back up but in the Gourami, not the Africans, and another round of Furan II, it was gone in 4 days.
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Post by barbara on Apr 9, 2009 22:10:02 GMT -5
Jon, I've got the meds for the hospital tank under control. I'm trying to figure out how to sterilize the main tank. According to Bill, it's gonna have to be bleach, and that's going to be a pain.
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Post by kagome on Apr 10, 2009 0:10:12 GMT -5
I just thought I would chime in on how I bleached my 38g. I don't know if the same thing will work for you, but I thought it might be helpful. Once the fish were out I just dumped the bleach in without removing anything else and I left everything running, even the airstone. I ended up running the bleach for 72 hours because of other things coming together wrong and I just couldn't get it vacuumed the day before. Then I took off the lids and bleached them separately out on the patio, I even gave the lights a wipe down with bleach solution just in case. I also removed the HOB, broke it down, rinsed the heck out of it and the biogrid and of course threw away the old carbon. I took out the fake plants and decor and rinsed them in buckets out on the patio as well, I added dechlorinator to buckets afterwards just to be safe. Then I used the gravel vacuum and made sure I went over every single inch of gravel several times (I use a Lee's gravel vacuum I got from Carl and have it hooked up to a garden hose). Once the water got down to about half way I ran another garden hose in and ran water into the tank so that I had water coming in and out at the same time. I did that for quite a while, I think a bit over an hour,I know that's a lot of wasted water but hey people waste more than that washing their cars and such. Then I removed the gravel vacuum and refilled the tank with the hose and added dechlorinator. I plugged the filters and pumps back in and let everything run for 24 hours. Then I ran two chlorine tests which came up as 0ppm. I have no idea what your set up at your house is like or if that would work for you but I thought it might at least give you some ideas. I'm sorry you have to sterilize the tank, I know what a huge pain that is. I hope the fish are getting better.
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Post by barbara on Apr 10, 2009 9:23:38 GMT -5
Kagome, thanks so much for the advice. I'm not really sure how to accomplish that with a 125. Your way might just work for me, since I can't move this tank, and I'll see what I can do about it. I haven't really made a decision on how to sterilize the tank yet. I'm still working on saving the fish.
We'll see how they react to treatment. I may have some that are just too far along to save. We'll just have to see how this goes.
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Post by Carl on Apr 10, 2009 9:31:42 GMT -5
Jon, I've got the meds for the hospital tank under control. I'm trying to figure out how to sterilize the main tank. According to Bill, it's gonna have to be bleach, and that's going to be a pain. Barbara; I generally use a 20/1 water to bleach solution, left in with ALL filters running minus carbon. I leave it in for 24-48 hours before rinsing out and de-chlorinating. This article has a section about this (in section #10) Aquarium Disease Prevention; Tank SterilizationMethylene Blue is extremely safe and its mode of action little if any side effects, even when overdosed. Basically when it comes to anti bacterial medications (not Copper, malachite green, and even these vary depending on formula and tank ph), the side effects are not fish specific, rather environmental or physiological, such as Erythromycin destroying the nitrifying bacteria and then your ammonia levels go up and kill the fish. Any fish with higher ammonia sensitivities will die first and and an aquarist not monitoring ammonia and dealing with this side effect may make the anecdotal conclusion that their Clown Loach (for example) is more sensitive to Erythromycin when in reality this is incorrect. Trichlorfon is one of the few suggestions, but then it is not really an antibacterial (it is in Clout and used mostly for parasites) Most Silver Scaled fish such as Silver Dollars, Rays, Bala Sharks, Arowanas, Tinfoil Barbs, Hemodias, Piranha are sensitive or out right killed by Trichlorfon. Tetracycline will lower red blood cell counts in fish, so a fish that is hemorrhaging would more likely be harmed by its use. So treating a tank of fish for say Streptococcus witha Cory cat the has a hemorrhaging sore may die first and again this would be an anecdotal statement to assume that the cause was the Tetracycline mixed with Cory Cats, rather the incorrect use of. I would recommend reading this article and its sub pages, as I have spent 30 years on much of its content (which includes test, research, seminars (with Aquatronics), and time spent working with a Medical Doctor that was a aquarium hobbyist as well. Honestly Medications is one of the largest areas of misinformation in the aquarium keeping hobby, and this includes with long timers or otherwise experienced aquarists. AQUARIUM MEDICATIONS, treatments, how they work, and which ones to use and not to useCarl
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Post by barbara on Apr 10, 2009 9:52:39 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. I missed the article on sterilization, but I did read the one on Aquarium Meds.
I am treating the 75 gallon with a full dose of Kanaplex, with Nitrofurazone at 1/2 strength. Potassium Permanganate was used in a bath, for all the fish I thought could tolerate it. I didn't bathe the cories, loaches or the Ghost Knife, but everyone else got 30 minutes. I decided to do it the easy way...with all the little fish in the tank I'd still be bathing, so I filled a 10 gallon plastic tote, added 2 teaspoons of the solution, and caught fish in shifts.
I do appreciate all of the expert advice and solutions for this problem. I was feeling very overwhelmed by this problem, because I just normally don't have sick fish. I'm going to monitor the tank for any signs of stress, but so far everyone seems fine.
I plan to do a water change on the 75 gallon tomorrow, and then dose the tank again. I'm planning on draining the 125 today, to get rid of all of the salt that I added, and to give it a great cleaning, since it is empty now.
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Post by Carl on Apr 10, 2009 15:19:58 GMT -5
Your welcome Barbara! I did not mean to come off as grumpy or condescending either, I have lot going on personally (& professionally) and the misinformation that is spread on the internet and many LFS often makes me frustrated as I like to see facts (at least facts as known be the most current research and scientific test methods) treated as such and anecdotal statements (that is often all we have in some subjects) treated as what they are. Either way good luck and I think your caution in the use of Potassium Permangante is a good idea for the Cories, Loaches and Knife as this is a strong oxidizer (MB is not harsh, but is less effective too for Columnaris). Carl
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Post by Carl on Apr 12, 2009 13:57:48 GMT -5
How are your fish doing Barbara?
Carl
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Post by kagome on Apr 12, 2009 23:30:27 GMT -5
I can so sympathize with that sentiment. I really hope that it is all getting better for you.
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Post by barbara on Apr 13, 2009 12:35:18 GMT -5
Well, I lost another Gourami...that had absolutely no signs of a problem. Was still fully colored upon death, and I don't get that at all.
The one I'm calling "Stumpy," the Gourami that was showing symptoms, seems to be doing great. I'm starting my 3rd treatment today.
I may have spread this disease to other tanks, before I knew what the problem was. I'm having some unexplained deaths in 2 other tanks...so I'm going to have to treat those as well. Fortunately, most of those fish can tolerate high salt levels and medication, so I don't have to be as picky in my treatment.
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Post by Carl on Apr 13, 2009 13:25:24 GMT -5
I am sorry to read this Barbara, as I was crossing my fingers that this was not too pervasively systemic. Have you been able to give medicated baths with MB, salt, & Nitrofurazone? Sometimes a strong salt water dip (3-5 minutes), albeit VERY harsh may be necessary as well. What meds are being currently used in the tank. I sure hope you do not need to totally tear down the tank or especially that this problem spreads. Although a UV Sterilizer will not help much for the internal bacterial infection (outside of improving Redox, antioxidant ability of the water), it may help check the spread. I wish you the best with this. Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 13, 2009 15:44:53 GMT -5
Carl, I'm using Kanaplex, at full strength on the original tank that broke out, with Nitrofurazone at half strenth, with a good dose of salt.
On the possible new outbreaks, I'm treating with a big dose of salt and baths with Potassium Permanganate. I don't have enough Kanaplex to treat the other tanks, although I might be able to get it on Wednesday, if I don't keep losing fish. Although, I might not be battling disease in these tanks, because of the aggression level, this may be fighting. I don't know for sure, but I figured treating these as best as I can for the tiime being is all I can do.
Again, I'm seeing no symptoms, just dead fish.
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 13, 2009 18:36:53 GMT -5
I'm really sorry to hear that you are continueing to have problems. I really hope this works out for you. I know you are very close to your fish and it must be really hard for you. I don't know what this is but with time I'm sure you'll get it treated successfully.
Best of luck! Hope your fish feel better.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Apr 13, 2009 18:41:47 GMT -5
OK, it may well be aggression in the other tank, as well aggression/stress may have helped bring this on in tank with the Gouramis as bikeguy noted.
You did have those pictures earlier that me and bikeguy saw clear signs of a pathogen, although from here it is educated guesses.
Well, I hope this can be defeated for you.
Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 13, 2009 18:48:53 GMT -5
Right, I meant to say I see no signs of disease in the other tanks, but I'm trying to be safe. One tank is my Paralabidochromis sp. "Fire," which is not endangered, but unfortunately, one is my Xystichromis sp. "Kyoga Flameback," which is at risk. If I lose my "Fires," while it will be sad, it won't be tragic as it would be to lose endangered fish.
With the "Fires," generally only one male is tolerated, so this may be a "natural" thing...getting rid of the competition. With the "Kyoga Flameback" tank, I'm losing fish that I would expect to lose, Steatocranus tinanti (I have problems keeping these alive) and Paralabidochromis chromogynos...as the males are extremely hard on each other. I was losing males at an astounding rate, even without disease, which is why I gave my adult colony, minus a couple of males, to a friend that could have better numbers.
So, in the cichlid tanks, this may just be bad timing, as the fish are coming of age, and at the time to start being hard on non-dominant males. Or, this disease could have spread. I'm trying to treat it as if it is disease, just in case.
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Post by Carl on Apr 13, 2009 18:54:22 GMT -5
I think this is wise, but hopefully disease is NOT the problem here. Have you thought of adding a UV Sterilizer to any tanks, especially those with endangered fish? While these will not and cannot solve all problems, they certainly are a worth while part of an aquarium system to prevent problems. In my aquarium service, I even refused service contracts with certain tanks unless a decent sterilizer was present and correctly connected as I saw the difference they made. Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 13, 2009 18:55:54 GMT -5
did you possibly cross contaminate with any of your gear or share media.....this is the only way it could happen. we use the same gear in my house....but we wash it well between every tank...
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Post by barbara on Apr 13, 2009 19:35:47 GMT -5
I haven't thought about a sterilizer, but I might now.
And yes, I probably contaminated the other tanks, if that is what happened...we'll have to see how this plays out.
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Post by barbara on Apr 13, 2009 22:36:52 GMT -5
Started the bleach treatment on my 125 gallon. My husband is home to help...and he agrees that this has to be done, even though he's not happy about it.
I pulled all of the substrate, because I don't know if the Flourite will be too pourous for the bleach...and not be able to be rinsed. We're going to switch this tank to sand, after all is said and done.
I set up a 10 gallon with bleach, to leave up and full, to disenfect all of my equipment during this problem. Hopefully, we can keep from contaminating any more tanks this way.
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