Redox Results. ORP, PH, rH, and maybe TDS,

[rogierfvv]

After posting on some research in the ORP area, including mention of the fact that it is possibly all about the presence of active hydrogen (H- ion) as a scavenger, based on the discussion on this website: 

h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/ORP-and-correlation-with-reducing-action.html

I am herewith proposing to post some of these measurements, and perhaps a few people are interested to compare and see what we can learn. I am going to start keeping track of these parameters.
I thought my old ORP meter would be no good anymore, but for now it seems it is giving reasonably probable results, in this case this is what I got:

3/23/16:

• Tap Water: 368
• ZeroWater filtered: 241
  
• ATO tank ( with some wonder shell): 216
• 5 gallon tank: 123
• 29 gallon tank: 123

I would be interested to see if one or two people would be interested in participating. For now, I would plan to post weekly to this list, and perhaps try to do several parameters: Temp, ORP, PH, rH, TDS, and possibly KH and GH. I am curious to see what could be learned. 

[devonjohnsgard]

hmm. interesting. what would you expect to learn? I'd think it's the aquarium husbandry that would determine the ORP value. Might have a hard time finding a group of people with these tools.

[Carl]

This can be interesting!
I would suggest a control aquarium too.

As Devon noted, this would be difficult for most others to follow along with and we would need many parameters including water sources, filtration, and even lighting to be exactly the same for really comparable results.

What are you using to measure Relative Hydrogen (rH)?

I certainly am interested in and learning from any results you might find.

Carl

[rogierfvv]

Thanks for the feedback. I have just enhanced my spreadsheet on water parameters to take this into account, and I think I will start out by observing the results for a month or so, and then posting a table of the weekly findings. For now my focus is simply getting a "feel" for the numbers.

[childofiam]

I am interested in participation with this thread. I will be getting my ORP meter within the next couple of weeks. I have a TDS pin and it reads the same TDS as my V2 TDS monitor so I know its correct.
I am doing a controlled test right now on Wonder Shell fragments in 250 ml of RO water. I want to see what happens to the RO water in 24 hr period.
The RO H2O tested at 3:42 pm on 3/24/16 - PH 6.6 TDS 24 ppm, KH 0, GH 0, Ca+ 0
With this test I am looking at Ca+ levels and TDS levels at 12, 24, 36, 48 hour periods.

Carl, one thing I would like to test for is Magnesium in my water column. Is there a test kit for this or how would I go about testing for magnesium?

Richard

[rogierfvv]

Excellent... here by the way is the explanation on the relative Hydrogen score, from this website:

h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/rH-score-1.html

quote
The rH scale employs the same logarithmic Bar scale used to express gas pressure in terms of order of magnitude, and the rH scale runs from 0 to 42; 28 is mid-point (balance), below 28 is reducing, above 28 oxidizing... Therefore, an rH score of 0 would indicate maximum possible reducing (antioxidant) power, while a score of 42 would indicate the maximum possible oxidizing environment.

So, rH yields a hydrogen proton-unbiased measure of absolute reducing potential of a substance; eliminating effects due to pH. rH is log1/hydrogen partial pressure; a one unit change in rH indicates a 10X change. E.g., a shift on the Barr scale of rH from a score of 27 to one of 26 indicates a 10X increase in reducing power. rH 28 = H partial pressure (pp) of 10^-28 atmospheres, an rH 11 = H pp is 10^-11 atmospheres, and a 0 rH is the rH value of pure hydrogen at STP. Again, as noted above, an rH score of 0 would indicate maximum possible reducing (aka “antioxidant”) power, while a score of 42 would indicate the maximum possible oxidizing environment.

Nonetheless, ORP and better, rH, have found some degree of acceptance for many years in the fields of high-end aquarium keeping, wine and beer brewing, food storage and food safety as an indicator or relative antioxidant ability, and, since the mid-to-late 90's; in some sectors of the nutritional antioxidant field as an indicator of the same as well. It is somewhat important to note that ORP and rH scores have also been used to some extent for many years in the groundwater and waste water remediation fields as well as measures of relative oxidation or reducing ability of water.
unquote

The formula to use is: ((ORP+205)/29.58+(2*pH)), I have a spreadsheet to compute rH from PH and ORP readings, and I will now start recording them weekly.

In my first tests, my 5 gallon had an rH of 25.16 (slightly reducing), and the 29 gallon an rH of 25.20, again slightly reducing -- below 28.

BTW the tanks are similar, but the 5gallon has some level of CO2 (fermentation based), and a high quality LED lighting system. The 29 gallon for now has just a regular hood with a Hagen Power-Glo T8, 10 hrs a day, and no CO2. I am using varying levels of Wondershells in both tanks, my water is NYC tap water, but from a ZeroWater filter, with addition of Seachem Replenish and usually either some baking soda, or some Seachem Alkaline Buffer as needed.

For the record, I am using the basic API FW test kit for pH and everything else, and for ORP I am using a Hanna Instruments PHEP HI 982901, which is 15 years old, from a time when I was involved with Water Ionizers, but it still works, as I have verified with an engineer at the co. I may not even need to calibrate it, from the looks of it... although I may just do that one of these days to make sure. Ideally I would like to get a more accurate pH reader, so I may get a PH tester as well, with accuracy of 0.01 pH. 

[Carl]

Mar 24, 2016 16:59:52 GMT -5 childofiam said:

Carl, one thing I would like to test for is Magnesium in my water column. Is there a test kit for this or how would I go about testing for magnesium?

Richard

Magnesium test kits are available, generally for saltwater use (& even then I found little issues, so I rarely used mine)
I can get these kits, the Red Sea kit is $35

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

All very interesting. rH is new to me! Id think you nano tanks would have a lower rH score, being that they have a lower redox. I guess I'm still figuring this measure out.

[childofiam]

In the formula: ((ORP+205)/29.58+(2*pH))
Is this,... my ORP + 205 divided by 29.58 plus "what does this mean (2*ph)?"

Richard

[childofiam]

Mar 25, 2016 10:00:52 GMT -5 Carl said:

Mar 24, 2016 16:59:52 GMT -5 childofiam said:

Carl, one thing I would like to test for is Magnesium in my water column. Is there a test kit for this or how would I go about testing for magnesium?

Richard

Magnesium test kits are available, generally for saltwater use (& even then I found little issues, so I rarely used mine)
I can get these kits, the Red Sea kit is $35

Carl

Thanks, I will let you know

Richard

[childofiam]

Mar 25, 2016 7:10:25 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

Excellent... here by the way is the explanation on the relative Hydrogen score, from this website:

h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/rH-score-1.html

quote
The rH scale employs the same logarithmic Bar scale used to express gas pressure in terms of order of magnitude, and the rH scale runs from 0 to 42; 28 is mid-point (balance), below 28 is reducing, above 28 oxidizing... Therefore, an rH score of 0 would indicate maximum possible reducing (antioxidant) power, while a score of 42 would indicate the maximum possible oxidizing environment.

So, rH yields a hydrogen proton-unbiased measure of absolute reducing potential of a substance; eliminating effects due to pH. rH is log1/hydrogen partial pressure; a one unit change in rH indicates a 10X change. E.g., a shift on the Barr scale of rH from a score of 27 to one of 26 indicates a 10X increase in reducing power. rH 28 = H partial pressure (pp) of 10^-28 atmospheres, an rH 11 = H pp is 10^-11 atmospheres, and a 0 rH is the rH value of pure hydrogen at STP. Again, as noted above, an rH score of 0 would indicate maximum possible reducing (aka “antioxidant”) power, while a score of 42 would indicate the maximum possible oxidizing environment.

Nonetheless, ORP and better, rH, have found some degree of acceptance for many years in the fields of high-end aquarium keeping, wine and beer brewing, food storage and food safety as an indicator or relative antioxidant ability, and, since the mid-to-late 90's; in some sectors of the nutritional antioxidant field as an indicator of the same as well. It is somewhat important to note that ORP and rH scores have also been used to some extent for many years in the groundwater and waste water remediation fields as well as measures of relative oxidation or reducing ability of water.
unquote

The formula to use is: ((ORP+205)/29.58+(2*pH)), I have a spreadsheet to compute rH from PH and ORP readings, and I will now start recording them weekly.

In my first tests, my 5 gallon had an rH of 25.16 (slightly reducing), and the 29 gallon an rH of 25.20, again slightly reducing -- below 28.

BTW the tanks are similar, but the 5gallon has some level of CO2 (fermentation based), and a high quality LED lighting system. The 29 gallon for now has just a regular hood with a Hagen Power-Glo T8, 10 hrs a day, and no CO2. I am using varying levels of Wondershells in both tanks, my water is NYC tap water, but from a ZeroWater filter, with addition of Seachem Replenish and usually either some baking soda, or some Seachem Alkaline Buffer as needed.

For the record, I am using the basic API FW test kit for pH and everything else, and for ORP I am using a Hanna Instruments PHEP HI 982901, which is 15 years old, from a time when I was involved with Water Ionizers, but it still works, as I have verified with an engineer at the co. I may not even need to calibrate it, from the looks of it... although I may just do that one of these days to make sure. Ideally I would like to get a more accurate pH reader, so I may get a PH tester as well, with accuracy of 0.01 pH. 

Can you list your ORP and PH and TDS for both tanks for me?

Richard

[Carl]

Mar 25, 2016 7:10:25 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

BTW the tanks are similar, but the 5gallon has some level of CO2 (fermentation based), and a high quality LED lighting system. The 29 gallon for now has just a regular hood with a Hagen Power-Glo T8, 10 hrs a day, and no CO2. I am using varying levels of Wondershells in both tanks, my water is NYC tap water, but from a ZeroWater filter, with addition of Seachem Replenish and usually either some baking soda, or some Seachem Alkaline Buffer as needed.

I have found that lighting plays a role in Redox reduction, to what extent I have not figured out, but I do know that red light has been indicated to play a bigger role.
I know also that the Hagen Power Glo is 18000K, so this is a "cooler/bluer" light which should have less effect than others.
What is the LED and its Kelvin temperature?

For the record, I am using the basic API FW test kit for pH and everything else, and for ORP I am using a Hanna Instruments PHEP HI 982901, which is 15 years old, from a time when I was involved with Water Ionizers, but it still works, as I have verified with an engineer at the co. I may not even need to calibrate it, from the looks of it... although I may just do that one of these days to make sure. Ideally I would like to get a more accurate pH reader, so I may get a PH tester as well, with accuracy of 0.01 pH. 

The Hanna is one of the best and is who made both the pH and ORP meters I used in the past

Carl

[rogierfvv]

for the record my 5 gallon nano tank has a Nemolight Aquafresh which is an 18 W fixture (I run it at 50%, for 8 hours a day), it has 31 white LEDs, at 8,000K, and 2 each of blue 460nm, red 630nm, green 520 nm.
And I agree the Hagen Power Glo may not be the best choice for a planted tank... I am going to go to LEDs eventually... have been eyeing Aquaray...

[Carl]

Mar 27, 2016 11:03:47 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

for the record my 5 gallon nano tank has a Nemolight Aquafresh which is an 18 W fixture (I run it at 50%, for 8 hours a day), it has 31 white LEDs, at 8,000K, and 2 each of blue 460nm, red 630nm, green 520 nm.
And I agree the Hagen Power Glo may not be the best choice for a planted tank... I am going to go to LEDs eventually... have been eyeing Aquaray...

Thanks!

BTW, thanks for starting this thread too, as this is a subject that I myself have so much to learn more about, so this will hopefully be very educational for me as well and maybe help me better explains some of the results I have had over the years.

Carl

[rogierfvv]

Ok, and filling in another missing piece:
My ATO tank is about 9 gallons, and
I use Zero Water with a TDS between 000 and 006, pH 6.0, ORP ca 220, implying rH of about 28, or almost neutral.

I do not add anything to my ATO water (like Replenish or baking soda, or Alkaline buffer), as the ATO deals mainly with evaporation. If/when I do water changes I add Replenish, and/or baking soda, and/or Alkaline buffer directly to the desired levels.

After some experience with the wondershells, I decided to add some to the ATO tank, and the results were:

pH: 6.0
ORP: 125
TDS 0036
rH: 23.16

In short, the Wondershells (magnesium and calcium) did not noticeably raise pH (but I might be below the accuracy of the test), but they caused the ORP to drop significantly, and the resulting rH of 23 is well below 28, and therefore the water is now reducing.

[rogierfvv]

And here is another key piece, on how bacteria can cause a down shift in ORP:

quote
Bacterial Activity
Bacterial action, by both anaerobic and aerobic bacteria, can significantly change the ORP of a mass of water (underground aquifer, lake, stream, bay) over time, due to biochemical action. Generally, this shift is in the negative direction, toward a lower ORP, but the direction and amount of shift in ORP will depend entirely upon the bacteria present, bacterial foods, other substances present in the water, as well as temperature and other factors.
unquote (from: h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/Methods-to-modify-ORP-water-1.html)

[devonjohnsgard]

Very interesting!

[rogierfvv]

Some interim results 3/30/16:
ATO (9G, with a small wondershell):
TDS 49
ORP 175
pH 6
rH 24.85

Main tank (29G):
TDS 470
ORP 86
pH 6.8
rH 23.44

In fact the last few days for the main tank were:
date - rH
3/24 - 25.20
3/25 - 25.56
3/26 - 24.92
3/27 - 25.16
3/28 - 23.70
3/29 - 24.14
3/30 - 23.44

the main tank is presently 48 days old... so at the tail end of the new tank process, and it seems I may have had one casualty, an amano shrimp... at least recently I count only five, not six, but it's not always easy to find them... and I have not found a body, but there seemed to be an ammo spike at around 3/21.
In other words the improving trend seems to suggest that the water is getting healthier as we go along.

Meanwhile, I posted on my own blogs:
3xaquarium.blogspot.com/2016/03/water-quality-revisited.html
and about the relevance to drinking water: starlingavevegan.blogspot.com/2016/03/theres-more-to-it-than-just-drink-more.html
and among other things, here was some useful info coming back:
www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/core-information/water-ionizers-electrolyzers/

[Carl]

Very interesting blogs you have shared, thanks!

Have you thought about adding a GH reading to these tests?

Carl

[rogierfvv]

Indeed, yes, when I have a month of weekly data I'll include GH, KH...