Redox Results. ORP, PH, rH, and maybe TDS,

[rogierfvv]

hmmmm... I hope some other folks would go to the trouble of tracking the rH... once I have that combo PH/ORP/TEMP tester I will really get serious about it.
But if the information on Vinny Pinto's site (http://h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/rH-score-1.html) is accurate, and I believe that it is, the ORP itself is not a reliable indicator of the anti-oxidant properties of the water. I simply set up a spreadsheet to track the rH.

[devonjohnsgard]

Apr 15, 2016 21:25:04 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

hmmmm... I hope some other folks would go to the trouble of tracking the rH... once I have that combo PH/ORP/TEMP tester I will really get serious about it.
But if the information on Vinny Pinto's site (http://h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/rH-score-1.html) is accurate, and I believe that it is, the ORP itself is not a reliable indicator of the anti-oxidant properties of the water. I simply set up a spreadsheet to track the rH.

I appreciate your work around this. I would do the test, but have been a little busy lately. I might be able when you restart with your meter.

The way Carl came to ORP is interesting, because he saw the results before he knew anything about Redox. There's a high chance rH is part of this as well.

[childofiam]

Roger, I have been doing my ORP, PH, TDS readings a 1 pm every day. I chose this time because it is the middle of the day. What time of the day do you do your readings? Is there a preferred time of day that I should target instead of 1 pm?

Richard

[rogierfvv]

I tend to do them ca 1 hour after "sunup" in the tank, which happens to be 10 AM.
And again, once you have the ORP and pH, you can just use a spreadsheet to do the computation.
I am at that stage where I think I'm seeing something, but I am not sure what it is, and it will get more interesting with some more precision.
As I said before, I ended up thinking that there was a definite relationship with a downward drift in ORP and rH as the nitrogen cycle matured in my 29 gallon tank.
Right now another tank, 10G found its way to my doorstep, so I may be doing another startup in the near future, and manage it even more closely than I did this one.

[childofiam]

Apr 17, 2016 21:46:04 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

I tend to do them ca 1 hour after "sunup" in the tank, which happens to be 10 AM.
And again, once you have the ORP and pH, you can just use a spreadsheet to do the computation.
I am at that stage where I think I'm seeing something, but I am not sure what it is, and it will get more interesting with some more precision.
As I said before, I ended up thinking that there was a definite relationship with a downward drift in ORP and rH as the nitrogen cycle matured in my 29 gallon tank.
Right now another tank, 10G found its way to my doorstep, so I may be doing another startup in the near future, and manage it even more closely than I did this one.

I have a 95 gal coming soon from a coworker of my wife. He is retiring and wants to travel so he is giving up the hobby. I plan on doing the same thing when I get it, to watch the nitrification process.
How will you sterilize the tank when you start the 10 gallon? You never know what you are inheriting in used tanks so I was wondering what I need to do to completely sterilize a old system. I would also like to see how you start the process of nitrification.

Richard

[rogierfvv]

Funny, yes, re sterilization... Mine came from a neighbor's kid. Got a 10 Gallon for Xmas, and must have killed all the fish successfully, so by April it was by the trash, and I picked it up. Besides rinsing it out, I will also wipe it out with alcohol once and after that rinse it some more to not take any risks.

In one of my recent blogs, I posted my desired start-up process, here: 3xaquarium.blogspot.com/2016/03/water-quality-revisited.html

Probably when I start setting up the 10 gallon tank, I will revisit those conclusions and document my whole process in my blog. Remember one thing however, my focus is very heavily on plants. I always had plants, but now I want to have PLANTS ;-) and my experiment will most likely involve seriously using organic potting soil as a substrate, perhaps with a sandy cover. Still debating that, but whatever I do for substrate will be one of the biggest decisions.

[childofiam]

Apr 18, 2016 9:56:47 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

Funny, yes, re sterilization... Mine came from a neighbor's kid. Got a 10 Gallon for Xmas, and must have killed all the fish successfully, so by April it was by the trash, and I picked it up. Besides rinsing it out, I will also wipe it out with alcohol once and after that rinse it some more to not take any risks.

Is alcohol better than bleach diluted down?

In one of my recent blogs, I posted my desired start-up process, here: 3xaquarium.blogspot.com/2016/03/water-quality-revisited.html

Thanks... I will revisit this

Probably when I start setting up the 10 gallon tank, I will revisit those conclusions and document my whole process in my blog. Remember one thing however, my focus is very heavily on plants. I always had plants, but now I want to have PLANTS ;-) and my experiment will most likely involve seriously using organic potting soil as a substrate, perhaps with a sandy cover. Still debating that, but whatever I do for substrate will be one of the biggest decisions.

A couple years ago I used a organic spergun peat moss. I just put in 2 inches and then covered it up with stone. I found this to be a big mistake because the peat compressed under the weight and then the peat started to produce poisons gasses from the lack of O2. Make sure you mix the potting mix with stone to keep the compression from happening. Also make sure you use a true organic potting mix because some organic brands have added fertilizer like chicken manure in it.

This thread is a good thread for beginners to read... Richard

[rogierfvv]

I would say bleach with water is fine, although you always have to rinse it out really good. I just happen to have an over supply of IPA on hand, so this is a good way to use some of it up.
I can see the peat moss being a disaster, because it will start decomposing. Even the advocates for the organic soil (Matt Owens, Diana Walstad), are saying to take out any clumps that are clearly not decomposed, etc. I did a half step in the direction of organic potting soil by trying this pot with my wisteria in my 29g setup, and evidently it is growing out of bounds, so I am encouraged. Funnily enough the idea of having a plant in a pot like that gives some interesting aquascaping possibilities I had never thought of.
I can't wait to get into setting up this next tank ;-)

[rogierfvv]

Wondering out loud about some interim results on my 29G:
- 4/23, day 72, nitrates 35 ish, pH 7.0 ORP 138, rH 25.6 (mind you, still below 28), 33% water change
- 4/25, day 75, pH 7.0, ORP 68, rH 23.23
- 4/26, day 76, pH 7.0, ORP 105, rH 24.48

... thinking out loud: Is the rH giving me a clue that as nitrates accumulate, the water becomes toxic, so that observing the rH alone could be an indicator as to when a water change is urgent???

Just a thought, and a suggestion for others about interpreting these results...

[Carl]

Apr 26, 2016 12:45:52 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

Wondering out loud about some interim results on my 29G:
- 4/23, day 72, nitrates 35 ish, pH 7.0 ORP 138, rH 25.6 (mind you, still below 28), 33% water change
- 4/25, day 75, pH 7.0, ORP 68, rH 23.23
- 4/26, day 76, pH 7.0, ORP 105, rH 24.48

... thinking out loud: Is the rH giving me a clue that as nitrates accumulate, the water becomes toxic, so that observing the rH alone could be an indicator as to when a water change is urgent???

Just a thought, and a suggestion for others about interpreting these results...

Interesting observation!

Do you have the nitrate readings?

Thanks for this ongoing education teacher!

Carl

[rogierfvv]

yes, on 4/25 and 4/26 nitrates were more 10-20 ish... sorry for the omission.

[Carl]

Question: I am trying to wrap my head around ORP versus rH and what each measurement hopefully shows us and what one might not show.

Is it possible to summarize this in a paragraph or two?

Carl

[rogierfvv]

yes it is very easy to summarize what the point of rH is versus ORP. The short answer is that rH, Relative Hydrogen Score, is a better measure of whether the water is actually oxidising or reducing than ORP is. ORP is a proxy, rH directly measures atomic H in the water, (which includes H-), so it is still not a direct measure of H-, but it's closer than ORP...

My experience with Water ionizers for drinking water really set me on the track. In 1997 Prof. Sanetaka Shirahata of Kyoto University published a paper in BBRC (a peer reviewed journal, Biolochemical and Biophyscial Research Communications), which demonstrated for the first time that H- persisted in electrolyzed water, putting to rest an industry myth that the reason for the health effects of the alkaline water from electrolysis was the very alkalinity of it. Not so, it was the presence of H-, which science up to that point had believed could not exist but for nano seconds. Dr. Hidemitsu Hayashi pointed out that in several natural bodies of water the same thing was found, and he began manufacturing his mineral sticks, which were a much cheaper and more effective way to create HRW, hydrogen rich water.

The next step was to realize that the alkalinity of cathodic water from electrolysis was not the cause of its healing properties, the presence of H- was, and ORP was tentatively a better way to measure the anti-oxidant value of the water, but it is not conclusive either. Then I began reading about aquarium-keeping again, and about how you were using ORP, but I was also reading Vinny Pinto's site about the H- ion and HRW for human consumption, a.o. here: h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/electrolyzed-reduced-water-2.html, where among other things he says the following:

"
Almost all of these machines produce an ERW which is of low to medium strength, with an ORP (oxidation reduction potential) of about -150 to -240 (the ORP is the best single simple indicator of strength, the more negative the stronger the antioxidant properties), and a pH of about 9.2. The alkaline pH is an accidental by-product, and not responsible for the health benefits, although for a person who is very acidic, the alkalinity may help some. Overall, ORP is the best (easily available and cheap) indicator or corollary for the presence of the H- ion: the more strongly negative the ORP, the greater amount of hydrogen and the H- ion (antioxidant), in general. In reality, even the ORP is only a corollary of the presence of the H- ion, and not a direct measure.
"

Later on the site, he explains why ORP is not a good measure either, for it is only weakly correlated with atomic Hydrogen in the water, but rH, which is a relationship between pH and ORP, is an easy way to calculate the approximate presence of atomic H (including H-) in the water, and therefore the best measure of anti-oxidant activity. The link to his treatise on the Relative Hydrogen Score (rH) is here:
h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/rH-score-1.html,
and some more details are here:
h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/Samples-rH-scores-1.htm

The upshot is, by keeping track of your measurements with a spreadsheet, you can track rH, and I am beginning to suspect it is a good measure to follow... Below 28 on the scale is reducing, above 28 is oxidizing... therefore any rH below 28 indicates anti-oxidant effectiveness of the water by the presence of atomic H, which will include H-.

Since a spreadsheet is doing the work, you can use the most exact formula rH=((ORP+205)/29.58)+2*pH), in simplified form it is ((ORP+200)/30)=(2*pH), but I see no reason not to use the accurate formula.

Bottomline, rH is a truer indication of anti-oxidant activity in the water than ORP. You can have an ORP in the plus range and still have H- in the water, and the formula will tell. Today 4/27/16 the ORP in my 29G was +96, and the pH 7.0, with an rH of 24.18.

[Carl]

Great explanation!

Just what I was looking for

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

^^^ Well, that clears things up. Pretty impactful for the aquarium hobby!

[rogierfvv]

And now for the real deal...

I just spoke for an hour with Tyler LeBaron, who founded the Molecular Hydrogen Foundation.

He tells me of visiting a hydrogen clinic in China, where he was surrounded by huge fish tanks, with hydrogen bubbling up in them, and strongly negative ORP, and plants and fish obviously doing extraordinarily well... meanwhile note below, there now is a direct test of Hydrogen, for even the rH formula has its shortcomings and at times can be way off.

www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/core-information/oxidation-reduction-potential-orp-a-more-complete-explanation/
www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/videos/

www.h2bluetestkit.com/
also note: h2bev.com/

It would appear that I started an interesting line of inquiry, but I had no clue what I might turn up.

Possibly the most interesting aspect of this new science about molecular H2 is that it makes the exact point Carl has been making, that health is a balancing act in which oxidation and reduction BOTH play a role. The unique part about H2 seems to be that it is a selective anti-oxidant that targets those oxidative processes that cause cell damage, but leaves others alone, whereas say massive doses of vitamin C might be OK at times but over doing some anti-oxidants could actually be counter productive, and cause more problems than it solves.

From the front page of the Molecular Hydrogen Foundaton:
quote
Molecular hydrogen (H2) or diatomic hydrogen is a tasteless, odorless, flammable gas.

Over 500 peer-reviewed articles demonstrate hydrogen to have therapeutic potential in essentially every organ of the human body and in 150 different human disease models.
H2 reduces oxidative stress as a selective antioxidant and by maintaining homeostatic levels of glutathione, superoxide dismutase, catalase, etc.
H2, like other gaseous signaling molecules (i.e. NO, CO, H2S), appears to have cell signal-modulating activity affording it with anti-inflammatory, anti-obesity, and anti-allergy benefits.
unquote

[devonjohnsgard]

This is very exciting work. Carl and I have had a couple of conversations about this and it's just exciting to continue down the redox path. Very impactful for the hobby...just need to get it out to all of them. Excited to see where this all ends up.

[childofiam]

Roger, is the target RH the midpoint of 28? or where does a healthy Aquatic environment thrive, above 28 or below? I am still trying to wrap my brain around what I an to look for.
My RH averages between 24 and 28, am I on target here?

Richard

[rogierfvv]

Theoretically rH below 28 is reducing, and my guess is we want a "slightly" reducing environment as the norm.
Notice also that from recent conversations and newer info, the rH measure may not always work, and the hunt right now is for an explicit way to establish that H2 (molecular hydrogen) is present in the water. The test we've seen H2blue, may be thrown off by other gases that are dissolved in the water, notably CO2. I will probably get the test anyway, and do some experimenting, and work with the mfr to see if it's usable for aquariums.

My guess is the magnesium in the Wondershells causes some generation of H2 in the water...

In short, we have need of some independent way of verifying that our method (wondershells, and whatever else), is generating h2 in the water. Once we know that we're doing that, we can use the rH computation to keep track. However, unless you can verify independently that there is molecular hydrogen being generated in the water in the first place, the rH scale in and of itself does not confirm that fact, and may therefore give us a false reading.

I will also be looking into other ways of generating H2 in the water, without raising pH. Clearly some methodologies, such as electrolysis raise pH signifcantly (and may not even be very effective in creating H2, in the case of electrolysis because the plates foul up in the machines).

here's my spreadsheet formula: =IF(ISBLANK(N77),0,(((N77+205)/29.58+(2*G77))) in which N77 is the ORP reading and G77 is the pH reading - so that if there's no ORP reading, it says 0.

[rogierfvv]

Presently, I just ordered the new Hanna pH probe, which will greatly add to the accuracy of my readings. Once I have that in operation for a while, I am going to work on a new experiment with the rH calculation, by constructing some experiments to determine if I am actually getting molecular hydrogen in the water with various methods. If I can establish that first outside the tank, than I can know by inference if the rH calculation gives me a decent reading.

To be sure, here are some links that provide in depth insight into the business of ORP, and the new paradigm of dissolved Hydrogen:

• www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/core-information/orp-meters-principles-and-misconceptions/
• www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/core-information/oxidation-reduction-potential-orp-explained/
• www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/core-information/orp-meters-principles-and-misconceptions/