Redox Results. ORP, PH, rH, and maybe TDS,

[childofiam]

Roger, I have been reading your blog and just to let you know it will be one of the blogs that I will continue to return to.

Richard

[rogierfvv]

Oh well, thanks for the comment... it was really fun to get into aquariums for the 3rd time after an almost 20 year hiatus... and now doing it with a new mindset. I am also grateful to have found AAP and this forum, where there is some serious dialog and information sharing going on, not to mention lots of experience.
In about two weeks I should be able to report a one month set of complete data, at weekly intervals, and at that time I also hope to have some insight into how the new tank cycle really worked in this case. For now it seems to be far longer than I ever imagined, but I've had some really bewildering experiences. I am 99% sure one amano shrimp died after about 3 weeks in this tank, but at the same time one female is now very pregnant, and of course I don't have facilities to go raise amano shrimp babies... we shall see.

I am really curious if the pursuit of rH will provide good insight in the long run. In the area of human health (drinking hydrogen rich water - HRW) there seems to be a lot afoot in 2016. I used to market water Ionizers, when that was hot. But now I see they have become completely obsolete, with the introduction of a new Hydrogen Infusion Machine (see http://www.h2healthyliving.com), so there's now a new high tech route to HRW, but there are also these mineral sticks that can make HRW very cheaply, and they seem to be catching on. My plan is after I complete this month of measurements, in which the wonder shells are really the new element that I had never tried before, I am then going to try and use these hydrogen mineral sticks, and see what they do for rH, and how it affects the tank. Carl's point that fish "swim in their immune system" is really a powerful thought.

[childofiam]

Apr 7, 2016 6:57:03 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

Oh well, thanks for the comment... it was really fun to get into aquariums for the 3rd time after an almost 20 year hiatus... and now doing it with a new mindset. I am also grateful to have found AAP and this forum, where there is some serious dialog and information sharing going on, not to mention lots of experience.
In about two weeks I should be able to report a one month set of complete data, at weekly intervals, and at that time I also hope to have some insight into how the new tank cycle really worked in this case. For now it seems to be far longer than I ever imagined, but I've had some really bewildering experiences. I am 99% sure one amano shrimp died after about 3 weeks in this tank, but at the same time one female is now very pregnant, and of course I don't have facilities to go raise amano shrimp babies... we shall see.

I am really curious if the pursuit of rH will provide good insight in the long run. In the area of human health (drinking hydrogen rich water - HRW) there seems to be a lot afoot in 2016. I used to market water Ionizers, when that was hot. But now I see they have become completely obsolete, with the introduction of a new Hydrogen Infusion Machine (see http://www.h2healthyliving.com), so there's now a new high tech route to HRW, but there are also these mineral sticks that can make HRW very cheaply, and they seem to be catching on. My plan is after I complete this month of measurements, in which the wonder shells are really the new element that I had never tried before, I am then going to try and use these hydrogen mineral sticks, and see what they do for rH, and how it affects the tank. Carl's point that fish "swim in their immune system" is really a powerful thought.

I found the article www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html and it was like someone turned the light on for me. I too have returned to the Aquarium world after a stent of about 20 years absent.
I look forward to your work here and what I will learn from you.

Richard

[rogierfvv]

Hmmm, some interim results (using API water tests, therefore Ammo readings represent Total Ammonia/Nitrogen; Ammo readings daily, Nitrite/Nitrate weekly)
NB: I no longer believe anything I've read about cycling tanks, except for the article by Marco Colasanti, cited in the AAP section on cycling, which essentially points out that there are 3 bacterial processes which were not previously accounted for, so the cycle is more complex than we used to think. The puzzling fact here was that I was getting a Nitrate reading before I was detecting any Nitrite - these bacteria must have read the Colasanti article - they certainly did not go by "the book," where it was strictly sequential: ammo, nitrite, nitrate.
So here are some interim results from my 29G tank, which is aged 58 days as of today.
Started on 2/11/16, with just water, some plants and some Malaysian Trumpet Snails, some plants and a small amount of gravel from a previous tank. After about a week I added 6 amano shrimp. Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate reading all zeros through day 23. I added 5 pygmy cories, on ca. day 28.
Day 23-32: ammonia fluctuating between 0.25 to 0.75
Day 33: ammonia 1.0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0
Day 34-38: ammo reads 4.0, Nitrate/Nitrate 0
Day 39: ammo reads 8.0
Day 40-43: ammo reads 6.0
Day 44-54: ammo reads 4.0 note on day 51 Nitrate 5.0 PPM, nitrite still reading 0.
Day 55-57: ammo reading lighter... 3.5 (or so)
Day 58: ammo 3.0, Nitrites 2.0, Nitrate 20

As to pH, it has been fluctuating this last week trending down, and I've added 1/4 tsp alkaline buffer 4 days in a row, to keep it in the 6.8-7.0 range).
Throughout during the ammo spike of 4.0 I steadily added about 5 ml of Stability daily, and I also had used a bit of Prime. I ran an (extra, on top of my Hydor Pro150 canister) HOB filter with ammochips during the last week.
Today I did a 35% water change.
Day 42-43 rH was above 25
Day 44-52 rH bounced around 24, with a high of 25.2 (one day), and a low of 23.5 (twice)
Day 53 onwards rH was around 23, with lows in the high 22 range (three times)
In short during all this period rH has trended lower, while I was keeping pH in the 6.8-7.0 range with alkaline buffer.
KH has been in the 35 range (with help) since the beginning (read only once a week)
GH has been in the 3-400 range, but the 35% new water has a GH of 65, so it should be dropping. I had started out the tank with some Equilibrium, to bring my ,006 TDS water from my ZeroWater filter up a bit.

During this time one amano shrimp and one pygmy cory (who seemed to lag behind since the beginning) croaked, and one amano shrimp has been pregnant, and I have not seen the young, nor do I have any brackish water facilities, so they are not viable. Plants are roaring along.

[Carl]

Apr 9, 2016 9:57:37 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

Hmmm, some interim results (using API water tests, therefore Ammo readings represent Total Ammonia/Nitrogen; Ammo readings daily, Nitrite/Nitrate weekly)
NB: I no longer believe anything I've read about cycling tanks, except for the article by Marco Colasanti, cited in the AAP section on cycling, which essentially points out that there are 3 bacterial processes which were not previously accounted for, so the cycle is more complex than we used to think. The puzzling fact here was that I was getting a Nitrate reading before I was detecting any Nitrite - these bacteria must have read the Colasanti article - they certainly did not go by "the book," where it was strictly sequential: ammo, nitrite, nitrate.
So here are some interim results from my 29G tank, which is aged 58 days as of today.
Started on 2/11/16, with just water, some plants and some Malaysian Trumpet Snails, some plants and a small amount of gravel from a previous tank. After about a week I added 6 amano shrimp. Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate reading all zeros through day 23. I added 5 pygmy cories, on ca. day 28.

The cycle is definitely more complex than we used to think, however it is often variables that show this complexity.
One variable I noted in your log was adding plants right at the beginning as this will almost always "throw a wrench" into how and what bacteria colonize as the plants will often utilize nitrogen based nutrients from the aquarium before bacteria can even get going

From my Nitrogen Cycle Article:
"Newer research indicates that there are three more dynamic processes involved in our aquarium nitrogen cycle, in particular marine aquaria.
I have noticed this in my many both anecdotal observations as well as tests I have performed where many variables were changed, especially during the establishment of a new tanks bio filter (adding plants early on being one), so this new science based theory really helps explain this"

and

"As mentioned earlier, many plants such as Hornwort also remove nitrogenous waste.
I usually do not add all the plants I desire until the aquarium is fully cycled (regardless of method used), which is usually 2-3 weeks.
The plants will help carry the waste load vs. an aquarium without plants, in fact in a heavily planted aquarium, it is quite common for the plants to remove all nitrogenous compounds before bacteria can act upon these, thus neutralizing any bacteria based bio filter.

I personally like to see at least some bacteria establish it self before a full load of plants are added (but there are others with have no problem with such a method). Having plants in the beginning does help keep the dangers of ammonia (NH3) or Nitrites (NO2) from building to toxic levels, which allows for a quicker addition of fish to your aquarium.

What heavily planted aquarium keepers should be aware of is that if the plants suddenly shut down their photosynthesis and all nutrient uptake, this can result in sudden ammonia spikes. This includes light failures, medication or certain medication combinations, or any other factor that neutralizes plant bio functioning. For this reason, having a seeded bio filter, even if in another aquarium that can be moved over is important. The AAP Hydro Sponge Filters are excellent for such a use."

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

Carl

[rogierfvv]

That is an interesting thought. And it had occurred to me, but then others say: bring plants across from other tanks to import some useful bacteria... I guess now I wish I could be starting two tanks in parallel ;-)
I decided not to panick, and just to watch, and keep a close record to see what could be learned. Meanwhile today I did a water change, and I started the UV, and I'm not messing with the filter until this is settled, and I'm seeing zeros for Ammo and Nitrite.
The only other change I've made is to add a 3W/6700K LED spotlight to help shed some light on things through the cover of duck weed, and it looks glorious.

[Carl]

Apr 9, 2016 20:49:38 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

That is an interesting thought. And it had occurred to me, but then others say: bring plants across from other tanks to import some useful bacteria...

I would have to respectfully disagree with these persons, but not that plants cannot bring in beneficial nitrifying bacteria (generally among the roots), but that the problems the plants can cause in establishment of a healthy bio filter can out weigh the small amount of beneficial bacteria transported in via the plants.

This said, once a n aquarium does get established with healthy plant growth, this will suppress the bio filter. But this is generally not an issue from my experience unless there is a sudden die out or removal of these plants.
The bio filter is still important even in a heavily planted aquarium as the plants do not utilize as many nitrogen based nutrients at night, but I have to admit this is based mainly on observations.

Carl

[childofiam]

Would it be possible to get pictures of your tanks?

Richard

[rogierfvv]

Actually, the first week or two when I ran this new tank, the only plant in there was this Wisteria, which was in a pot, with some gravel from the old tank... I did that exactly because I wanted to bring over some bacteria from a healthy tank, but not start up a lot of plants alongside the new filter. Only after about a month did I add two amazon plants, which by now have had babies. And after that, I harvested some more plants from my other tank.




Clearly the issue of the competition between plants and filter is an interesting one. I have always had planted tanks, and except for my very first tank as a kid, I've always had power filters of one sort or another alongside the plants...

[childofiam]

I really like the Wisteria in the clay pot. Would the clay pot have any effect on KH or GH?

Richard

[rogierfvv]

I don't think the terracotta pot has any effect on KH/GH, at least not that I can tell. The idea for the experiment really came because I had already ordered my substrate, and then was reading Walstad and Owens, who advocate using organic potting soil for substrate. Thus I decided to do this pot as an experiment. The plant certainly seems to be doing well. It was puny when I started 60 days ago. In the pot is a layer of tank substrate, and then a layer of organic potting soil, topped by some gravel from the smaller tank I have.

[Carl]

Apr 11, 2016 11:51:31 GMT -5 childofiam said:

I really like the Wisteria in the clay pot. Would the clay pot have any effect on KH or GH?

Richard

this is an interesting thought.

I have used clay pots for years and I have to admit I never thought of this nor tested this.

I am no expert on clay pots, but if "fired" I would think they would be inert, but I know I used to live in an area of clay soils which were high in limestone since the hills I lived in were ancient seabeds that were raised by the Whittier Fault line.

Maybe placing one in DI/Distilled water then testing before and after

Carl

[rogierfvv]

Great idea. But, by the by, this Wisteria is doing extraordinarily fantastic, in that pot with some organic potting soil, covered with gravel, while its offshoots that I have since planted in my super duper substrate have been slow to catch on, perhaps in part because of the shade of the parent plant...

[devonjohnsgard]

Apr 12, 2016 9:43:02 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

Great idea. But, by the by, this Wisteria is doing extraordinarily fantastic, in that pot with some organic potting soil, covered with gravel, while its offshoots that I have since planted in my super duper substrate have been slow to catch on, perhaps in part because of the shade of the parent plant...

Need some root tabs in the sub.

[childofiam]

Apr 12, 2016 9:33:26 GMT -5 Carl said:

Apr 11, 2016 11:51:31 GMT -5 childofiam said:

I really like the Wisteria in the clay pot. Would the clay pot have any effect on KH or GH?

Richard

this is an interesting thought.

I have used clay pots for years and I have to admit I never thought of this nor tested this.

I am no expert on clay pots, but if "fired" I would think they would be inert, but I know I used to live in an area of clay soils which were high in limestone since the hills I lived in were ancient seabeds that were raised by the Whittier Fault line.

Maybe placing one in DI/Distilled water then testing before and after

Carl

I just happen to have a small clay pot so I will place it in a SS pot with RO and see...

Richard

PS Right now I have a rock in a pot with RO testing to see if it will have an effect on the GH. The rock is a flint but it also has a unknown vein of rock in it as well as a green vein. Testing for copper with the green vein.

[rogierfvv]

OK, the first 62 days are complete, and by day 62 Ammonia and Nitrite were zero... the rest is plants and water changes. Duckweed going crazy.

Details here: 3xaquarium.blogspot.com/2016/04/tank-cycling-revisited.html

[childofiam]

Apr 13, 2016 15:30:23 GMT -5 rogierfvv said:

OK, the first 62 days are complete, and by day 62 Ammonia and Nitrite were zero... the rest is plants and water changes. Duckweed going crazy.

Details here: 3xaquarium.blogspot.com/2016/04/tank-cycling-revisited.html

What is the target ORP I should look for in a healthy Aquarium?

[devonjohnsgard]

It comes down to application... It could vary.

"I have mostly discussed Redox Reduction and its misunderstood importance, however there does need to be a balance between reduction and oxidation for proper chemistry within a fish or most all living animal organisms.
The best current research seems to indicate a Redox reading of approximately +125 (freshwater) as a balanced Redox with optimum electromagnetism of the water.
However Redox Potential is often in “flux”, so I personally believe following healthy aquatic husbandry methods (that consider the affect on Redox) is an aquarists best bet in maintaining this balance. This includes a higher Redox (as high as +350) when oxidation is necessary due to high organic decomposition."
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#balance

The idea is to just focus on reducers to combat the acids. We want oxidation, but a shift of reduction as well. Not just all oxidation.

[childofiam]

Apr 14, 2016 12:47:09 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

It comes down to application... It could vary.

"I have mostly discussed Redox Reduction and its misunderstood importance, however there does need to be a balance between reduction and oxidation for proper chemistry within a fish or most all living animal organisms.
The best current research seems to indicate a Redox reading of approximately +125 (freshwater) as a balanced Redox with optimum electromagnetism of the water.
However Redox Potential is often in “flux”, so I personally believe following healthy aquatic husbandry methods (that consider the affect on Redox) is an aquarists best bet in maintaining this balance. This includes a higher Redox (as high as +350) when oxidation is necessary due to high organic decomposition."
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#balance

The idea is to just focus on reducers to combat the acids. We want oxidation, but a shift of reduction as well. Not just all oxidation.

Thanks Devon, I have beed reading the Redox_Potential article over and over. Learn something every time I reread it.

Richard

[devonjohnsgard]

Apr 14, 2016 13:45:51 GMT -5 childofiam said:

Thanks Devon, I have beed reading the Redox_Potential article over and over. Learn something every time I reread it.

Me too Lots to learn