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Post by Carl on Jan 24, 2009 20:54:23 GMT -5
You are right that a carnivore such as Betta that is not eating well is more likely to go after live or even frozen foods more than dried or prepared pellets/flakes. This is why the soaked Brine Shrimp may be very beneficial to him. Newly hatched Brine Shrimp are likely too small for your adult Betta though, I would consider getting even half of an ounce of live Brine Shrimp or maybe live blackworms (soak these if possible in the slurry we have already discussed). Frozen would be a good second option with FD brine/worm the 3rd option Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 25, 2009 18:37:16 GMT -5
Good news! I fed Critque a guppy fry and he ate it! Unfortunately, it took a long time for the guppy fry to die as he took a long time to catch it and then spit it out again several times before it died. It was very hard to watch. Personally, I would gladly feed him something else if I could but I don't see any other options where he will accept the food I offer. Hopefully he will be faster next time since he knows how to get the fry without them getting away. I will try his normal food again soon. But I wonder, is one guppy fry per day enough to keep a betta going? Critique is about 1 1/2 inches long and the guppy fry he ate was about a week old judging by its size. The reason I ask is it might take a little while for Critique to get enough of his appetite back to eat his normal food so I may have to feed him guppy fry for a few days.
Thanks so much for everyone that has helped me with this.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Jan 25, 2009 18:52:19 GMT -5
As much as this was hard to watch, this was an ecellent idea on your part Renee! I would do this for as long as it takes and consider "gut loading" the guppy fry with powdered Flake prior to feeding (Spiruina based for immunity would be best) Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 25, 2009 19:06:23 GMT -5
Thanks. I actually fed the guppies Spirulina this morning so that should help. I will feed him another tomorrow and feed the guppies spirulina before.
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 26, 2009 16:50:28 GMT -5
He spit out the guppy I fed him last night. I removed it. Then I fed him another today but he wouldn't touch it so I put it with my other baby guppies. Then I tried to force feed him spirulina and his normal food with an eyedroper but with all the netting and rough handling that went with it, he was on the top when I put him back in. I discovered that after I removed the dead fish, there were also some parts I hadn't notcied that were fuzzy. I did a complete water change. I just hope that since some of that water from the betta container got in the baby guppy tank whne I put the baby guppy in he wouldn't eat, that it won't spread. I am very upset with all of this. My ebtta seems to be a little better sinc eI last looked. I added Metronidizole. I will be picking up some Omega 3 tablets tomorrow to hopefully get him to eat. This has left me very upset. I just wish this could be easier....
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Post by Carl on Jan 26, 2009 17:40:49 GMT -5
As we spoke on the phone, I think you are doing the best you can Renee Obviosly this is not an easy situation, as we may be dealing with just the symptoms (lack of appetite) and not the cause. Hopefully your use of the Metronidazole will help with this, as may the medicated wonder shells when they arrive. When I force feed a fish (usually just the slurry), I use my hands rather than the net, however you can coat the net with slime enhancing water conditioner or pour a little Prime or similar water conditioner on your hands. Admittedly this is not easy, and not always successful, especially since we may only be addressing symptoms. You can also add medications such as Metronidazole or Neomycin to this food slurry to go after disease pathogens. You may just soak Brine Shrimp, worms, etc in this slurry, this is sometimes enough to stimulate appetite since Omega 3 fatty acids are an appetite attractant, As well Omega 3 will ease inflamation in the gut. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 26, 2009 18:23:09 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. I will do that. My betta seems a little better now. I think he is starting to recover a bit from the stress. I am relieved. Sorry about sounding so upset on the phone. I was very worried about losing my fish and I felt awful after putting it through that. I will try again tomorrow and hopefully he will eat.
My mom says we have Omega 2 capsules in the house but it is in fish oil capsules. Will that work for Omega 3?
Thanks.
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 26, 2009 18:34:50 GMT -5
I just noticed a tear in the middle of Critique's tail fin. No doubt, it was from the rough handling head had today. I will see how fast it fheals. I've found that to be a relatively good indicator of health although the time fins take to heal can varies greatly.
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Post by Carl on Jan 26, 2009 20:13:19 GMT -5
This is perfect! You were fine on the phone Renee, I know you were very upset, but that is because you care, nothing wrong with caring Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 27, 2009 15:19:02 GMT -5
Thanks. Glad you undertsood that. I am going to be force feeding Criqtiue within the next hour. He is resting on the bottom right now.
Wish me luck!
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 27, 2009 17:06:54 GMT -5
I fed him and I could not control the shaking of my hands. He escaped from me into the container with water I was feeding him in several times and his tail fin is a mess after the feeding from the rough handling. I was put his head above water and fed him and suceeded in getting some food into his mouth but I saw him spit it out. For a minute after I put him back in, I thought he would die. He was at the top tilted to the side a little. He is doing sligthly better now that its been a few minutes but I do not think he can recover if I keep on doing this. He will eat when he is well but I cannot ever expect him to eat if has to go through stress like this every day. I will try to keep his life as stress free as possible from now on and offer him food but not force it down him. Perhaps if I give him some time and stop messing with him so much, he will eventually eat again.
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 17:23:12 GMT -5
Sorry again that you are going through this Renee, I think since this is very difficult for you to do, you would be better off not attempting this "forced feeding" anymore.
As John/8 said in another thread of yours today, he has had fish go for a week without eating and they were fine.
So my advice is to continue so soak the food so as to both amplify nutrition and as well palatability.
Make sure to try and address possible causes of this malady as well (such as using the Metronidazole you have and the Med. WS when they arrive)
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 27, 2009 17:30:39 GMT -5
I will be but I am almost out Metronidizole. I will have to get some form my local store since that is the fastest way.
I will continue to soak the food. Should it be in the spirulina slurry? I am working with either tiny pellets or flake food that could easily get lost in the mix.
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 17:48:27 GMT -5
I will be but I am almost out Metronidizole. I will have to get some form my local store since that is the fastest way. I will continue to soak the food. Should it be in the spirulina slurry? I am working with either tiny pellets or flake food that could easily get lost in the mix. Since Flakes are part of this slurry, they will not work. Pellets would be better, or better yet would be worms or brine shrimp (this is by far where I have had the greatest success in stimulating appetite) You could however try simply adding a little fish oil to the flakes prior to feeding them to see if this helps Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 27, 2009 18:22:59 GMT -5
Adding fish oil will work then. My betta is not used to any other food besides the pellets and flakes. Even my healthy bettas reject food for the first few days even if they go nuts every time they're fed it later. So in this case, switching his food would definietly not work.
I noticed Critique's belly was round like he recently eaten which is strange unless he somehow got food today or from the guppy he ate previously, or ate something I while I was not looking although whenever I put food in his 1 gallon, he acts like it is not there and gives it no attention.
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 19:33:13 GMT -5
You may have succeeded in getting at least some food in him as well during the force feeding. However not to be disagreeable, but when you have fish that is by nature a carnivore such as a Betta that has a poor appetite or none at all, the most successful food would be live or frozen foods such as live brine shrimp or live worms. I can tell that I have had many a Betta that would not eat over the years, that live food would be just the ticket to success, and this slurry or even just the Omega 3 oil would help all the more. This is not to say that you can not be successful with pellets or flakes, this is what I mostly fed my fish and my clients for convenience & the Sanyu/Hikari Betta Pellets along with many others on the market are excellent products, but even an excellent food is no good if the fish will not eat it. I do not want to stress you more by making you feel you need to do something more, but I would not be being honest if I told you that just using a pellet or flake is your only alternative. If you recall we had a member that tried all sorts of Betta foods including the Sanyu I sell, but he had no success. However he did not want to use live foods, which unfortunately in difficult cases is necessary. I would certainly give it a try, keeping mind to not stress too much (also keep in mind the good tip that John/8 offered up as well). I think the force feeding is probably too hard for you, so my apologies for suggesting this, but if offering the dry foods soaked in the slurry do not work, consider live foods soaked in this with some Metronidazole thrown in as well, as this is where I have had better success (the Metronidazole helps with internal gut issues as well, so would Neomycin). Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 27, 2009 19:53:30 GMT -5
Well, I do not have live food. My brine shrimp only live a few days after they hatch so they will never be a good food source. I also do not have worms and I am out of guppy fry (the females ate the rest) unless another gave birth. And as of late, he has not even accepted guppy fry. I will try the BBS once he is less stressed.
On another note, betta No. 2 doesn't want food. From the same tank from the female that beat the other 2 up, a female named Dawn who has had the problem swimming upward for quite a long time who has been functioning fine now doesn't want food. She has not eaten for 2 days and when I put my finger by the tank, she is normally very enthusiastic. She just lay on the bottom while the other 3 in there begged for food. I already can't heat two bettas due to the size of the container filled with water I am using to heat my male bettas and my females that are sick. If I put Dawn anywhere, she would have to go in a 1 gallon container and be heated like the other sick females which would mean taking one of the males out and subject him to the temperature change. This is not looking good. I am going to wait and see on this. None of the fish seem to be messing with her so she should be ok (unless she is somehow canabalized like some of my other fish this has happened to the only difference being they hid and I didn't know they were sick.) I will post more on her if it continues. But for now, I'm not going to. This is certianly not my week for fish!!! My patience and energy with this is growing very thin.
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 20:28:30 GMT -5
Well, I do not have live food. My brine shrimp only live a few days after they hatch so they will never be a good food source. I also do not have worms and I am out of guppy fry (the females ate the rest) unless another gave birth. And as of late, he has not even accepted guppy fry. I will try the BBS once he is less stressed. The BBS are not adequate for an adult Betta, does the local Pet Store not have live Brine Shrimp? Usually this is offered for around .75 per 1/2 oz., but hat was in my previous business, maybe it is less available and more expensive in Michigan. Live worms are generally similar in price. Again please take this as tips to help your Betta, not to add more stress, but I am trying to tell you what I would do if you were a client of mine, and if I rubber stamped things that are not as likely to work, I would not be being honest. Carl
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Post by Carl on Jan 27, 2009 20:42:28 GMT -5
I will try and summarize for you what I think is the best coarse of action, please keeping in mind that this is not an exact science and even when we know the exact cause of a sick fish, we still cannot always effect a cure.
(1) Maintain water quality, this includes mineralization for osmoregulation and Redox
(2) Treat the tank with Kanamycin & Metronidazole (even a Melafix/Pimafix would be better than nothing). Later switch to the Medicated Wonder Shells with a water change in between ALL treatments
(3) Make the fish food slurry we have discussed and soak live worms or libe Brine Shrimp (Brine Shrimp are preferable as they tend to swim around in front of the fish’ nose)
(4) Perform Medicated baths with salt, MB and Metronidazole in this bath, do this for 30-45 minutes, once to twice per day.
Again there are no guarantees, so I do not want you to get too discouraged, however this would be the coarse of action I would take.
I am sorry this is not your week for fish Renee
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 28, 2009 15:57:49 GMT -5
I agree with your above statements except a one thing. My betta is so stressd lately with what I've put him through I don't think the MB baths will be beneficial enough with the stress of transport. Transport is always stressful to my fish with my shaky hands and how bad I am at netting.
My local store does not have any live food. The closest store with live food has adult blackworms which are too big (as far as I know) and that's all they have.
I will be trying shrimp pretty soon. (I actually could not find my Mycis shrimp in my cupboard full of fish stuff but I will look again. In the mean time, I have krill that my bettas love.
By the way, for soaking his food, since I can't use krill or mysis shrimp all the time, how would I soak his flake food or pellets in Omega 3 without them dissolving or making the water oily?
Thanks!
Renee
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