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Post by kagome on Nov 14, 2008 0:02:37 GMT -5
And now i HAVE A BIGGER PROBLEM This morning when I wasnt thinking and didn't have much time i put the quick cure in the main tank. I know this doesn't help with your current problems exactly, but it is actually OK to put Quick Cure in your main tank. I know this is confusing because it is blue in color, but Quick Cure is actually a combination of Malachite Green and Formalin and is meant to treat your display tank. I'm sorry that you have lost so many fish. As usual Carl is right, if this was a case of Ich your fish wouldn't die that quickly after just a few signs of being sick. My 10g has had some sort of protozoan infestation going on for several weeks now and I haven't lost a single fish even though one is a clown loach. The problem is now being beaten back with Medicated Wondershells. But anaerobic bacteria can be highly poisonous, to people as well as fish so it's not surprising that that could be the culprit in this situation. |
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 14, 2008 6:31:11 GMT -5
So sorry to hear that Cashay. I hope things get better.
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Post by cashay on Nov 14, 2008 7:26:47 GMT -5
why did the prime kill my cardinals with in minutes?  ?? I started taking out the water immediately and starting putting more water back in at the same time, and I think that is the only thing that saved my skirts! they were floating upside down ,laying at the bottom.. what i did after i changed (or during) I started grabbing them by the tail and pulling them backwards, to help clear their gills lungs what ever it is they breath with, and it worked!!!! they started coming around and this morning up and swimming normal, but i tell you seeing that all my cardinals died with in a min of putting in that prime! and my skirts on the brink of death, I will never use that again, I only used a few drops! the whole house smelled like sulfer,.but here is what they looked like this morning...  I have two more in a seperate tank that has pop eye, and ick, the melfix I have didnt say anything for Ick so i put them in a seperate so i could treat that also since the others dont have pop eye, or no symtoms anyway... so right now it is a treat and wait game... BUT I STILL have all 6 skirts!!! barley |
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Post by Carl on Nov 14, 2008 10:22:10 GMT -5
Prime is made from complexed hydrosulfite salts which when used up to double dose are perfectly safely, that is where sulfer smell came from. I am not sure why this reaction would happen unless there was something else done at the same time, and what is more important is that Prime is a Redox Reducer which further HELPS the fish and as well aids in slime coat generation due to this. I have literally added thousands of dose of this (& my old maintenance business still uses this product). My guess was there was something else in the water during this water change, possibly chlormines that the Prime , although almost instant, it still takes a few minutes to work (I generally add Prime or other water conditioners in small doses while filling a tank) Kagome made a good point as to Quick Cure and its "blue" color (it is a blue/green vs. the bright blue of MB) I think the use of a separate tank is good for the fish displaying the problems. I still feel either a gravel change or treatment with Potassium Permanganate is in order as well some medicated MB/salt baths for ALL fish so that these problems can be stopped dead in their tracks. Good Luck, we are all pulling for your fish, and you are really making an awesome effort to take care of them  Carl |
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Post by cashay on Nov 14, 2008 11:02:25 GMT -5
I have taken every thing out of the tank, the only thing left is the heater and sponge filter, only thing that was in the water at the time was the quick cure, But the cardinals seemed to be doing great when i got home, along with the skirts , But as soon as i added the prime from seachem they all started freaking out... going all over the tank, even the skirts were trying to jump out, then they started sucking for air at the top, then all rolled over on bellies cardinals dropped dead that quick.... and i thought I lost a skirt that quick but like I said I started taking the water out so fast.. and adding regular tap water, and it came back.... I dont know what it was but that was the reason they died. maybe that stuff does not mix with Quick cure, Both are safe just not together...
Thanks to everyone for pulling for them, I think as long as I dont do anything else and just give the meds time to work they should be fine fingers crossed, will keep you updated... and you know I will.. i like talking about my fish! ;D
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Nov 14, 2008 12:53:32 GMT -5
Sherry...prime should not have killed the fishies...I use it in all my tanks including my Red Cherry Shrimp (which are sensitive to water changes).
I have tried to break it down (keep in mind that you can use 3x as much...some say 5x...prime and it still be safe):
1 cap is 5 mL and treats 50g of water (each thread is 1 mL)
1 mL treats 10g of water (your tank is a 14g)
2 mL treats 20g of water (more than enough to treat your tank)
3 mL treats 30g of water (still safe for your tank)
I second what Carl said (again LOL) that the conditioner should be mixed with the new water prior to adding it to the tank. It does not say on the bottle...but I shake everything up. I just feel better about it (I even find myself turning a bottle of drinking water upside down to mix it..LOL).
Carl..what about bleaching the decor that can be bleached?..or will the Potassium Permanganate take care of that?
Lori
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Post by Carl on Nov 14, 2008 13:28:26 GMT -5
Bleaching Decor is an excellent point Lori  Potassium Permanganate can take the place of it WITH fish present (in the correct dosage), however bleach is a more powerful oxidizer, but must be performed out of the tank followed by a Reducer (which is the opposite of an oxidizer), which most all water conditioners (Prime, Start Right, Novaqua, etc.) are. BTW, quick cure can be used with Prime, HOWEVER NO water conditioner can be used with Potassium Permanganate since they are opposites (oxidizers vs. reducers) In fact for those of you who like little science experiments here is a quote from my Aquarium Answers article: Aquarium Conditioners"Add Potassium Permanganate at double strength solution (according to manufacturers instructions) to a container of water, then add your water conditioner at recommended dose; the purple color of the Potassium Permanganate should immediately disappear indicating the effectiveness of your water conditioner and demonstrating how quickly it can remove chlorine (which is an oxidizer like Potassium Permanganate, while the water conditioner is a reducer often containing Sodium Thiosulfate)." Carl |
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Post by cashay on Nov 14, 2008 14:41:54 GMT -5
Ok then I'm really confused then, What killed them all of a sudden like that? they were fine and as soon as I added it they freaked outed and were rushing to the top gasping for air like they couldn't breath and then died.... there was nothing else in the tank, I don't doubt anything you guys are telling me, I just dont understand it... And as soon as I took all the water out and put clean water in it and kept them moving they were fine? ? There was no other conditioners, no salts, no gravel, no decor,no other meds, just quick cure from that morning.... this si so frustrating, maybe I shouldn't try to figure it out,,, and just chalk it up. but I would hate to make the same mistake again.. I felt so bad for them, they were freaking out! sorta like "I" would act if I was being sufficated! |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Nov 14, 2008 15:44:29 GMT -5
I really don't know why they reacted that way  It does not make sense. I have never had that reaction and I have been using it for 3 yrs now. Did you add it directly to the tank or mix it in with water? I have only added it to water before adding the water to the tank. Maybe it burned them? I don't know...I am only grasping here. I'd contact Seachem at www.seachem.com and see if they have a support area. |
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Post by cashay on Nov 14, 2008 15:54:07 GMT -5
Actually I did add it straight to the tank.
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Post by Carl on Nov 14, 2008 16:39:26 GMT -5
Actually I did add it straight to the tank. Although this should not have been a problem, I generally add this either to a bucket/container of water to be added or slowly when water is being added via hose or other pump device. If a fish swims through some of the straight Prime, it may cause temporary irritation to the gills, but that should be it, temporary. I assume you had changed water prior to using, correct? I also wonder if too much was accidentally used (although I have spilled bottle of the stuff in aquariums without this kind of reaction, although I did change water immediately). Carl |
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 14, 2008 17:11:48 GMT -5
Ok, here's what I am thinking. This is just a guess in the dark but is it possible that you gave too much Prime and I mean WAY too much? I believe you give a capful fo Prime per 50 gallons, at least according to my bottle the last time I checked. (I can't find the bottle right now). For a 13 gallon tank, you'd want to give 1/5 of a capful. Is it possible you were giving a 50 gallon dose evertime instead of a one for about 10 gallons?
Also, I'm not sure what's going on with their reactions but I would discontinue using the Prime for now and next time you do water change, use regular water conditioner. That might give you some prespective to if it is the Prime, the water yo are adding, or something else. As odd as this sounds, I've had fish have reactions to the mildest meds while others were ok with normal dose. For example, I had a female betta a few months back that was tilting sideways and had a gill cover sticking out. I gave her a bath of MB and she went into shock but survived. Then I gave a goldfish a bath of MB, possibly too much and it didn't react whatsoever. My point is very rarely, fish will react to medications for unknown causes, even if they are gentle. Of course, this does not happen much but I am saying there is always the slightest chance. (Not to disrespect anyone here who uses Prime and find it excellent, personally, I have used it and it worked fine. I am just trying to help Cashay and in saying this and find out what is wrong. for me, a lot of answers to my past problems with fishekeeping ahve come from some of the oddest places.)
Keep faith Cash, I'm sure your fishies will get through this!
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Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 14, 2008 22:47:43 GMT -5
maybe it is a bad batch of prime....check the expirey if there is one?
just grasping here tho
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Post by cashay on Nov 15, 2008 6:54:17 GMT -5
well this morning, Fish are still doing fine.... YAY I have done another water change, and added the quick cure again, still a little afraid to use the prime.. once they are totally better I will add it in with a water change, using drops at a time.. Great news on the two skirts that had ich or whatever AND pop eye, (in the hospital tank..) they look sooo much better, the actual eye is back in the heads! still looks a little blurry, and a little big But it's only been 2 days and their treatment is for another 5 days so hopefully they will be good to go back in their tank then, If they dont look 100% better they will stay in their med tank! will the fins look better also though? looks like my gold skirt has fin rot. the one in med tank.... I will try and get a close up of it, but their fins are so see through now, it will be hard to see on camera!  |
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Post by Carl on Nov 15, 2008 11:14:25 GMT -5
Good report Cash!
Keep up with the water changes, and I noticed in your last picture that the fish looked normally active and that most of the gravel was gone, which is good.
One question that I did not get an answer on was if you had had done a water change immediately prior to the use of the Prime?
Carl
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Post by cashay on Nov 15, 2008 11:30:09 GMT -5
YES! when they all started flipping over on their backs and floating yes as fast as I could get from sink to tank, I was pouring straight tap water as fast as the syphone hose was bringing it out! until it was a complete change,,, then i started grabbing them by their tails and gently pulling them back wards to flush their gills it worked!!!! with in an hour they were swimming up right again but groggly, next day ..... like nothing happened! oh and all the gravel is out except for a few pieces i couldnt get with fingers. will try and get those on next water change with syphone hose...  no gravel, cleaned the java ferns really good before putting back in, and the tall fake one is brand new, straight out of the pack so no diease's |
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Post by cashay on Nov 15, 2008 11:59:47 GMT -5
maybe it is a bad batch of prime....check the expirey if there is one? just grasping here tho It's possible, it could be a bad batch I can't find the date on it anywhere....  |
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Post by Carl on Nov 15, 2008 13:22:37 GMT -5
maybe it is a bad batch of prime....check the expirey if there is one? just grasping here tho It's possible, it could be a bad batch I can't find the date on it anywhere.... While anything is possible, the chemistry of this product does not lend itself to such a situation, which is why I asked the question about adding water IMMEDIATELY PRIOR to adding Prime. My reason was to confirm a thought that maybe your municiple water had Chloramines as your fish reaction is EXACTLY that if choramine poisoning, NOT Prime. It is also noteworthy that although Prime neutralizes chlorine almost instantly, chloramines which asr ammonia & chlorine bonded together (for vastly more chemical stability) takes longer for the effect of Prime to work. I also spent some time this morning investigating your local water company whether they use chlorine or chloramines and I came up with this from Charlotte, NC Municipal water: "All municipal tap water contains chlorine or chloramines" This is not proof that twas your problem but is certainly strong evidence. I would recommend adding new water VERY slowly and adding Prime slowly during this process. Carl |
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 15, 2008 13:32:35 GMT -5
It looks like everything is looking up guys! Gret job.
But this kind of raises a question for me. I never mix the water I get from the tapp with dechlorinator. I alwasy put the dechlorinater, salt, etc. in the tank midway through the water change or before I start readding water. Why don't my fish have a reaction? I do this sometimes even in fry tanks and the fish just swim around normally as the new water goes in. Then I add the dechlorinator, (actually maybe a little too much since it drips out fast) and nothing happens. I wonder if this is unusual or cuased my my tapwater lacking much chlorinne or chloromien or something...
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Post by Carl on Nov 15, 2008 14:50:16 GMT -5
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?? I started taking out the water immediately and starting putting more water back in at the same time, and I think that is the only thing that saved my skirts! they were floating upside down ,laying at the bottom.. what i did after i changed (or during) I started grabbing them by the tail and pulling them backwards, to help clear their gills lungs what ever it is they breath with, and it worked!!!! they started coming around and this morning up and swimming normal, but i tell you seeing that all my cardinals died with in a min of putting in that prime! and my skirts on the brink of death, I will never use that again, I only used a few drops! the whole house smelled like sulfer,.but here is what they looked like this morning...
