Columnaris or Lymphocystis?

[pufferpunk]

 

I have been battling this disease in my fish for over a year now. It started with a wild-caught pleco I bought (1st photo). It comes & goes. I have been able to heal several fish with salt & Indian almond leaves. I recently moved some of my fish from Chicago to SC & there were no visible signs of this disease at the time but within a few weeks I saw it appear again. I used the same method & it was gone, so I ordered several thousand $$$ of fish. It reappeared on a few plecos (Royal plecos seem to be the easiest infected & most have actually died) & had affected a few of my cichlids, which also died. I lost a 6" Royal pleco (bottom pic) but was able to heal the other plecos, including a young Royal. It seems it often starts on the gill plates (middle pic).  I usually can get rid of it, if that's all it is.  I've treated with Clout, salt, Pimafix & recently a week's treatment of Metro & now a pleco is showing signs again. I started treating with Kanaplex but all these meds were used, because of  overwhelming diagnoses of columnaris.  I now do not believe it to be columnaris but lymphocystis.  I have a 180, 120 & 45g tanks & all have showed signs of this disease at 1 time or another. I don't think baths are the answer, as there could be time where there is no sign of this disease for months & then a fish will become sick, so I need to eradicate this in ALL my tanks. I have bleached the siphon tubes & all the nets. I have been in this hobby 40 years & have never needed to use more than antiseptic medications, so I am quite concerned about overmedicating & possibly crashing the system. I also have a rather large, 17 year old Fahaka puffer fish who is sensitive to medications & I have nowhere to move him to. Please tell me what is the best course of action to combat this disease once & for all?

[Carl]

Welcome to Everything Aquatic!

While I am not 100% positive what it is, I am 100% positive what it is not and that is Lymphocystis.

This is based on how it is appearing on the fish as Lymphocystis will appear on edges of the fins and is NOT fatal other than allowing the fish to be weakened where another disease then affects the fish.

I would need a more close up picture to be sure, but this looks a lot like it is Saprolegnia which has many similar appearances to Columnaris, but a close up would help me know better. Either way it is likely one or the other based on what I can see so far.
However causes are often different.
One consideration for the identification of Saprolegnia/fungi is that out breaks often occur in an aquarium/pond with large amounts of decaying organic matter, with low pH, and poor circulation in the area of decay. Sometimes this even occurs in dead spots in filters such as canister filters that are not cleaned often or in under gravel filters, especially the tubular under gravel filters.
Columnaris is more common with stressed fish, lack of good osmoregulation, poor Redox, and genetically weak fish

Knowing parameters are important, so please provide all including KH & GH. also your filtration is important to know.

If you have had or do have Columnaris, most of what you have done to this point is not all that effective and in fact the fact you have used some partly but not fully effective treatments such as Kanamycin without combining with Nitrofurazone will allow for Columnaris to be even more resistant and difficult to treat in the future.
Honestly from my experience with fish treatments over the last 3+ decades is that not following a treatment regimen completely, which includes addressing water parameters and stressors that are often root causes will result in multiple failure.

So making sure you have good water circulation, filtration, 0 ammonia/nitrites, a stable pH, constant mineral ions and a balanced Redox goes a long ways in disease prevention and effective treatment when a disease out break does occur.

I strongly urge reading these articles:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

please supply a history of water maintenance, along with when certain meds were added along with the fish reactions after each procedure

Carl

[pufferpunk]

180g: pH 6.4, 0 ammonia/nitrate, NO3 5, 3x Eheim 2217, 50-75% weekly WC.
120g: pH 6, 0 ammonia/nitrate, NO3 10, 2x Eheim 2217, 50-75% weekly WC.
I do not have hardness test kits but I can guarantee you the water is quite soft, as I keep mostly South American fish & have Indian almond leaves in the tanks at all times. The best meds I have seen help these fish were the leaves & salt. Nothing has completely eradicated this.

[devonjohnsgard]

That what I thought. Saprolegnia

Temperate can also help, if you can bring it down to 75. I would also want to see a KH/GH test. Make sure there's no pH swing issues and good mineralization. A consent supply of electrolytes has shown helpful in these cases/prevention. Carl linked you to some information about that.

[Carl]

Jan 8, 2016 11:05:03 GMT -5 pufferpunk said:

I do not have hardness test kits but I can guarantee you the water is quite soft, as I keep mostly South American fish & have Indian almond leaves in the tanks at all times. The best meds I have seen help these fish were the leaves & salt. Nothing has completely eradicated this.

The fact you might have had some results with Indian Almond leaves and salt leaves open the possibility for both Saprolegnia and Columnaris.

Large amounts of decomp and DOC can be a contributor to Saprolegnia.

A low ph as you have can contribute to both Saprolegnia and Columnaris. This is not to say a low pH is necessarily bad, but it is also allows for a higher risk of these infections.

As for not knowing KH and GH, and assuming just because these fish are from SA, is a dangerous mistake many will make.

From my Aquarium Chemistry article (PLEASE read in full too)
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html:

"
This section not only discusses method for lowering pH & KH, but providing for a more "soft" mineral water environment, assuming this is truly necessary based on what has been explained and documented to this point in the article, especially since much of the concern over GH in particular has not been scientifically proven, and in fact quite the opposite has been shown as per needs for mineral Cations and how GH truly affects fish.
From the GH Section of this article:
More importantly as to respiration, the surface epithelia of gills and body surfaces are protected from direct interaction with the environment by mucous and intercellular junctions. Fish mucous has been postulated to have calcium binding properties.
Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier and thus is dependent on calcium for normal function."

More from this article:
"Calcium is also very important to Amazon basin fish as well as other fish too albeit in lesser quantities than say Mollies or Rift Lake Cichlids (despite some old school commentary to the contrary) and the lack of calcium minerals is not usually as evident in short term observations, however long term health and disease resistance will suffer.
Without a constant supply of trace amounts of calcium and other reducing mineral cations, this can result in diseases/ailments such as HITH disease in Oscars and other fish.
Reference: Aquarium Answers, Hole in the Head Disease

I should also note (despite common misunderstanding about water chemistry) that the addition of these mineral ions does not directly effect pH only GH.

Calcium should also be included, and many electrolyte replenishers (such as API Electrolyte) do NOT add adequate amounts of Calcium.
Please note that I am not putting down such products, as I have used them and they are very good for replenishing some electrolytes including some chlorides, they are just not complete as per continual replenishment of positive calcium cations (necessary for Redox health).
Original Wonder Shells can also be used with these products to provide better balance in this area, although when added to the aquarium I generally only use 1/4 the suggested size of Wonder Shell for Amazon River/SE Asia biotope water."

And from my Columnaris article:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

"With Columnaris, it is important to learn the effect stress has in outbreaks as well as the importance positive mineral ions and the role these cations play in adhesion of Columnaris by reducing surface potential and repulsive forces."

And finally from my Redox article:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html

"Maintaining a proper Redox Balance (or Potential) which includes the reducing side of the equation is a lot like having an anti-oxidant vitamin in the aquarium water (although a more accurate description would be magnetically charged water).
The Aquarium Redox is also just one more parameter towards good disease prevention and long term fish health and growth."

Sorry to be blunt, but my point is you cannot ignore this important aspect of fish health and expect treatments to work, especially when used in incorrect combinations

Carl

[pufferpunk]

As far as stress--I did move a bunch of my fish from Chicago to SC (overnight shipping) 6 months ago but none of those fish are sick. The rest of them were shipped to me within the past 4 months. Everyone seems happy & healthy. There is one bitch female Geophagus steindachneri who chases everyone relentlessly (especially the male, who developed the "ducklips") but the other fish are pretty tough & hold their own.

I have been in this hobby many decades (40 years) & have never had to be so concerned about my tank's chemistry as you write about. It sounds overwhelming to me. I've alway been a big proponent of large weekly water changes & healthy variety of vitamin-enriched foods. I'm not really clear where I go from here.

[Carl]

I too have been in the hobby since the late 60s and professionally since 78.

Good feeding is definitely a major part of healthy fish keeping, especially such as Spirulina 20 and Paradigm foods

Water changes are also important, but too large can actually cause some large swings in chemistry

What I am telling you is not complicated at all, with all this coming from my years of research and includes what you pointed out.
However water parameters are also a key aspect of what has proven to keep fish with lower incidence of disease and more longevity


One of the articles I have asked you to read is the one about fish disease prevention and includes feeding and water changes.
Most of what is in there is not complicated at all.
Maintaining mineral Cations is party done by your water changes (depending how they are performed though), but also by simple products such as the AAP Wonder Shell.
Level 1 capable UV Sterilizers also make a difference in disease prevention.

Here is this article again (PLEASE READ in full):
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html

Another article about Fish Nutrition:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html

Unfortunately I can assure you that only using half treatments for diseases such as Columnaris is a recipie for failure, and this is backed up by my 1000s of aquariums I have professionally maintained and 100s of experiments and 1000s of hours of research

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I'd say for best results, follow Carls advice. The combinations and recommendations are based on keeping a lot of tanks, so you can really see improvement in health in different kinds of set-ups vs others. Electrolyte minerals is a major one. Sounds like you have a handful of good recommendations to start with.

[pufferpunk]

I am doing my best to get through all this reading you have given me, as I have ADD & it is very difficult for me to follow long test. About the Wonder Shells--Am I to use these in my tanks indefinitely or just while treating? For my soft water species, how much of this do I use? Should I get the medicated ones?

It seems I need to be treating with Kanaplex & Nitrofurazone. I am not sure how much to buy to treat my 180,120 & 46g tanks for as many days as are necessary. And I should also be adding salt, correct?

[Carl]

One package of Kanaplex treats 150 gallons as per the website while one package of Furan 2 treats 100 gallon

You would need three treatments every other day if treated in the main tank.
If used in a Fish Bath, this would be treated at double tank dose once per day.

I would decide based how many fish are affected whether an entire tank needs be treated.
For instant if only one or two fish is affected out of many, you might consider just the baths (which also include Methylene Blue and Salt)

As for salt, I would temporarily add 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons in any tank that has had an issue and reduce temperature to 75F.

As for an AAP Wonder Shell, I strongly suggest constant use, but for a soft-water tank, use just 1/4 dose as per the AAP Wonder Shell Page.
For instance full dose for your 120 gallon aquarium would be two large AAP Wonder Shells, so 1/4 does would be 1/2 Lg. WS or one full Medium WS for this 120 gallon aquarium.

If you decide to just pursue a bath due to few affected fish out of many, I would suggest a full dose Medicated Wonder Shell in the main aquarium that you elect to not treat with the stronger medications. This would be a one time treatment until the Shell is disolved, then follow this with a water change and the Regular AAP Wonder Shell at 1/4 dose.

Carl

[pufferpunk]

I have seen different fish in all 3 tanks infected by this disease. Considering that this disease comes & goes & even newly purchased fish have become infected with this, it seems to me it is either IN the tanks or other fish that appear healthy are carriers of this disease, so I would like to rid all 3 tanks of this once & for all. None of the fish now, seem to be suffering from life-threatening symptoms but there are a few showing signs, including one I had completely cleared this up on for at least a month & now I see it coming back at the base of its dorsal fin again. With this in mind, what would you recommend?

[Carl]

A lot of times in my experience just taking care of (sometimes even euthanizing) problematic fish is all that is needed rather "nuking" an aquarium with strong medications (which can have its own issues, which is why I am such a big proponent of disease prevention that includes baths/quarantine of new fish, addressing all aspects of water quality, optimum nutrition, and use of level one UV Sterilization).

This said, I would treat all tanks, follow with a water change, then possibly still use a Medicated Wonder shell.
After this another water change, and work on maintenance of water parameter outlined in my articles such as stated in the "Aquarium Disease Prevention" (consider a level one capable UV sterilizer too)

Carl

[pufferpunk]

Add 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons and reduce temperature to 75F. 3 treatments with Kanaplex & Furan 2, medicating every other day. Add 1/4 treatment Wonder Shell for each tank.  After the 3 doses are completed, do a 50% WC & add a full treatment medicated Wonder Shell for each tank.

Will any of this be too much for an old puffer (17) with no scales or any of my plecos?

[Carl]

Jan 10, 2016 21:47:42 GMT -5 pufferpunk said:

Add 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons and reduce temperature to 75F. 3 treatments with Kanaplex & Furan 2, medicating every other day. Add 1/4 treatment Wonder Shell for each tank.  After the 3 doses are completed, do a 50% WC & add a full treatment medicated Wonder Shell for each tank.

Will any of this be too much for an old puffer (17) with no scales or any of my plecos?

No, this should not be a problem

As side noted, keeping a puffer in an otherwise South American tank is generally not advised, but if you have done this for a long time it goes to show that there are no absolutes for fish keeping

Carl

[pufferpunk]

No kidding! Especially, since 99% of these fahaka puffers are notorious for killing every fish in their tank! I got very lucky with this friendly fellow.

[devonjohnsgard]

I think the prevention recommendations are a good one... I'd also look into a sterilizer to help kick this issue once and for all. Will boost their immunity too.

[pufferpunk]

Do you have a good UV sterilizer to recommend to me? Can it be moved from tank-tank?

[Carl]

The best UV is one that is run continuously on just one aquarium.
For this the Vecton is among the very best for level one sterilization and can be plumbed in line to canister filters (on the exhaust side):
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/TMCUVSterilizer.html

For a simple reasonably good UV, the AAP/SunSun Submerisble UVs are simple to mover around and are fully self contained (no additional plumbing needed):
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/InternalUVSterilizer.html

Further in depth information:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I have an 18 Watt Terminator.

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/CompactUVSterilizer.html

[pufferpunk]

I've got the 1st dose of all the meds Carl advised today in my 3 tanks. All the fish in my largest tank are looking stressed & breathing VERY heavily. I'm really worried about them! The fish in the other 2 tanks look fine.