cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 24, 2014 17:59:27 GMT -5
Only change water when changing out Medicated Wonder Shell, otherwise you will lower effectiveness. The Wonder Shell when used correctly will not add enough medication to make the water toxic. From Wonder Shell Web Page: "*Do not dilute the aquarium bowl water by changing more than 10% water during treatment with a Medicated Wonder Shell, this only lowers effectiveness of the MWS."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlThe main point is this shows a very active Betta, so if he is showing such behavior, I would not go over board with treatments. As per the Aquarium Disease Prevention article, too much care can be an issue. Please Read: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#overcareThe above article is one I feel very strongly should be followed as closely as possible, as it is backed up by many controlled tests proving the steps effectiveness. No, I have switched between the two many times in the past and actually had better results with Chlormines and ammonia using Prime. Unfortunately if no improvement has been seen by now, likely no improvement is going to be forth coming. Sadly pop eye is often very difficult to treat. You might switch out Erythromycin for Kanamycin Also Reference Aquarium Medications; Change Meds Section: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#change_medCarl Thank you Carl for your honesty and articles.
I am one of those who test the water parameters, too much. Yesterday, I made up a new ready-to-use bucket of water. This morning I tested the water and the results are off, compared to what the betta tank waters are. The nitrates in the bettas tanks are all approximately 5.0, and the bucket waters nitrates is 10ppm. The bettas PH range 7.5/7.8, and the bucket water is 8.0. The bucket waters KH 6 dkh and GH 9 dkh. The bettas waters KH 5 dkh and GH is higher because of the wonder shells. I read the article you posted on 'over care', and that's me. I'll give it a try not to be so worrisome but the nitrate and PH in the bucket are quite high compared to what the bettas are in, now. So, I unplugged the bubbler in the bucket, because doing this the PH has always come down, .2 to .4. I think over medicating can be a detriment, also especially because the water parameters aren't right, and I didn't keep B-blues water at 75 degrees, I didn't keep adding the ice to keep the water temperature down. (Although using ice is an excellent way to go!) I'll stay with salt in the tank for now. I agree that B-blue is an active betta fish and to keep on medicating, may make things worse for him.
I want to show you how B-blue and Kim are looking, as of today.
When I get another heater and tank; I plan to use the already seeded sponges and then one by one get the bio going before the bettas go into the tank with the sponge filter. So...I know that I'll have questions when the time comes. Hoping that'll happen soon.
Thank you again Carl. I don't want to keep throwing medicines at them, either. If there is something I missed, please let me know. Here's their pictures.
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2014 18:29:31 GMT -5
I would not be concerned with the nitrates, as even 20 ppm is a good/safe number. Generally I do not get too concerned with freshwater fish until over 50 ppm. From Aquarium Answers; Nitrate Control: " As a generalization, I recommend levels UNDER 40-50 ppm for FW, 20 ppm for Saltwater fish, & under 5 ppm or less for reef aquariums. For planted freshwater aquariums, about 15 ppm is suggested (not much lower). If levels exceed these generalized numbers for a long period, not just a day or even a week, coupled with other water parameter factors such as poor Redox balance, this can and will affect long term fish health."Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.htmlAs to pH, I will admit this is a bit more of a concern if only to prevent pH shock when changing water. I recommend aiming for not more than a difference of .5 in pH between new water and old water. Further Reference for Aquarium Cleaning (Refill): www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html#refillAs to your Bettas, these definitely look very weak, but maybe backing off and feeding the best diet possible, along with good water parameters will help too. The Medicated Wonder Shell is not as strong as many other meds, but that is also its advantage along with adding mineral Cations while delivering the meds. Carl
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 24, 2014 19:39:35 GMT -5
Carl, Is it pretty common for tap water to change in nitrate levels so frequently? I'm happy that even though the nitrates are starting out at 10ppm, that the bettas are 'safe'. Again, in the past I had been taught that bettas should be in a 5.-7.ppm only. Some of the time I get hard headed...so confused. Sorry!
What if I hold off for a week before starting in on the medicated wonder shell? Just to let their bodies re-coop some from the other medicines? Your opinion?
B-blues' picture in my last post...have you seen this kind of rapid color loss before? In the right light, the white-silver color loss, has red in there, also. Infection? I haven't seen this before, and so quickly! Sweet lil' Kim, her eye just got bigger in the past 2 days. Now, I'll have to remove the plants on driftwood when the medicated wonder shells are added. Is it going to be ok to put all their plants into one bucket during treatment, as long as they all get a dip before going back into their tanks?
I really appreciate all of you for being so patient and answering all questions no matter what. You're truly devoted to helping everybody no matter the question asked. Thank you again, everybody for all the help that's here.
Cheri
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Post by angelminx on Sept 25, 2014 3:32:16 GMT -5
Carl,
This is just a thought that popped into my head, and may have nothing whatsoever to do with what's happening. But maybe the tail-chasing has something to do with some sort of irritation, or maybe a nerve problem. Is it possible that there is something that occasionally affects fish like when we get an occasional itch or something that "just has to be 'scratched'", or as in cats with hyperesthesia that causes them to attack their own tails/bodies (or sometimes other people or housemates)?
Angelminx
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Post by Carl on Sept 25, 2014 9:48:21 GMT -5
Nitrate variations can be common. Here is a quote from Aquarium Answers; Tap Water: "Nitrates are allowed up to 10 ppm, yet at levels above 10- 30 (depending on studies) in human studies infants under 6 months can become ill and suffer symptoms such as Blue Baby Syndrome."Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/01/what-should-i-know-about-tap-water-for.htmlAs per Bettas being kept in water of 5-7 ppm, this is patently FALSE as per the earlier references I cited, as well as practical experience. I have kept delicate marine corals in nitrate levels of 15 ppm; why would a fish that can live in puddles during dry season not survive above 7 ppm? Honestly, whatever the source that told you this should be avoided IMO Yes, this is an excellent idea! Yes, unfortunately I have seen this in cases of fish TB, which is very difficult to treat and fish are best isolated. BTW, confirmation of this disease are best done by a qualified lab. Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2012/04/tb-in-fish-mycobacterium-tuberculosis.htmlAs for removing the plants, some such as Java Ferns are not all that affected by Medicated Wonder Shells, so removal is not always necessary Otherwise a dip can be used prior to reintroduction, but again this all can be more damaging to the plants than the MWS itself Your welcome! I am sure this is possible, however every video as well as my own observations of Bettas has shown this to be a Betta showing aggression. My experience has shown that fish with irritations will "flash" which is a fish quickly rubbing against an object, not bite itself. Biting seems to be a warm blooded animal behavior. Example of flashing fish: www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-qsUGr_l98Carl
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 26, 2014 21:48:12 GMT -5
Hi,
Well, Nice to know that B-blue can keep the hearty, java fern in his tank, if I use a medicated wonder shell.
I'm not so sure that putting him through more medication, even a milder dose, would help him or just weaken him. With the few days of baths and the 2 rounds of the other medicines he just went through, it seems that there should have been 'some sign of improvement'.
I think that until I get the 5 gallon going with the Hydor sponge and proper water parameters that any medications I add to his tank, next week, may just compromise what quality of life he has now.
For what length of time should salt be added to his tank?
Yesterday, when I read your response Carl, that it's possible B-blue might have TB...It's just so sad, but I thought something was bad wrong with him.
The nasty nitrates are only lasts for a season here, thank goodness. Right now, straight from the tap the nitrates read between 20/30ppm.
Thank you once again for the good information.((:
Cheri
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cheri
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Posts: 55
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Post by cheri on Sept 26, 2014 21:55:44 GMT -5
Carl,
Is there a particular diet or food that would be beneficial for the bettas?
Now they eat frozen/thawed to room temperature blood worms, spirulina brine shrimp, and pre-soaked pellets Sanyu betta gold, and Aqueon betta food. They also get frozen/thawed pea pieces with a day of fasting. What can I add or subtract that would be healthful for them?
Cheri
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Post by Carl on Sept 27, 2014 10:52:54 GMT -5
This is a very important observation! I point this out tin the Aquarium Medications article Part 1 too. Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.htmlIf treatment regimens, including baths are not productive, the meds need to be either switched or stopped. As well water parameters often need to be reexamined, feeding too is important (although your feeding regimen is good IMO). Sometimes it comes down to a genetically weak, weak from previous permanent damage from poor care (often prior to the current fish owner), old, or a fish with an incurable disease (or a combination of the previously mentioned points) I think you are doing an excellent job with what you are feeding, including the Spirulina Brine Shrimp. While I have not fed the Paradigm Carnivore Diet to a Betta, this might be an excellent addition to his diet (you would want to crumble it a bit). Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ParadigmFoods.htmlYour very welcome, your compliments are much appreciated! Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 27, 2014 14:05:25 GMT -5
For what length of time should salt be added to his tank? If it's the therapeutic dose, you can keep it in the tank and readd during water changes. Looks like a good diet to me too
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 29, 2014 11:42:22 GMT -5
Hi,
At this time, I'm not giving any medication to the fishes. I don't really want to just 'give-up' on the fish, but until the water issues are corrected, well giving them medicines, may just weaken their systems, and I don't want to do that to them, either. The salt in B-blues' tank is therapeutic (I think). I know that what I add is less than what the articles say. I am adding 1 1/2 tsp. for 2 gallons...and...I forgot to re-add the salt on this last water change. Geeesh.
Back to the water. In the 5 gallon tank that I use to seed sponges, driftwood, and matrix; I think what has happened is it's turned into a nitrate tank. When I add in ammonia plus Prime, and then test the water in 24 & 48 hrs., the ammonia is still partially there, and the nitrites are 0, and nitrates are getting higher. But, I don't know what to do to correct the ammonia issue. ( In the beginning, after the tank first cycled, the ammonia would be gone in 1/2 a day). I usually add 2 drops ammonia, sometimes 3 about every other day, and after partial water changes, sometimes 4 drops ammonia. This is on going long after the tank had cycled back in May. I did mess up a couple of times and didn't keep the nitrates down so maybe this has something to do with the ammonia issue? Is there anything I can do, or is it best to tear it down and just start over. The nitrates are at a constant 40ppm, even doing 50% water changes weekly.
I might try the Paradigm food. It has a lot of goodies and it's all in one package! Thank you Carl and Devon, saying that their diet is good.
Cheri
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 29, 2014 11:49:02 GMT -5
With the cooler weather, their tank water temperature has hit 75 degrees. Since B-blue and Kim aren't on any medicines right now, should I go ahead and start raising their water back to 78 degrees?
Thanks!
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Post by Carl on Sept 29, 2014 13:44:06 GMT -5
Yes, this is a good idea to correct water parameters. This is also why I often promote Fish Baths, as these do not further mess with a tanks bio filter and over all parameters Why are you adding ammonia to a tank that should be seeded? This should not need to be done, maybe adding a very small amount of dissolved fish food 40 ppm nitrates is not a problem as per the Nitrate Control article, especially if this tank is for seeding Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.htmlYes, this would be OK Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 29, 2014 17:13:01 GMT -5
Wondering why Ammonia is being added as well. 40 Nitrates are not bad, so I wouldn't put to much worry into it.
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 30, 2014 12:21:42 GMT -5
Hi, It's now 72 hrs. since ammonia plus Prime was added to the tank, and the reading this morning is 0. Yea! Wow! It's such a relief to know that the nitrates at 40ppm aren't so bad in a tank for seeding purposes. You both asked, 'why am I adding ammonia to an already seeded tank'? I thought that the bio-bacteria still needed to be fed... I thought that adding ammonia would prevent unwanted bacteria, while feeding (keeping alive) the necessary bio-bugs. Showing my ignorance.|: So, to keep them alive, I should be feeding them 'liquefied' fish food; and this will not contaminate the good bacteria, or adding in bad? How much, how often should the tank be fed with this kind of food? I'm asking, because I don't want to over or under feed the tank. I hope soon buy another heater so I can get a 5 gallon established for one of the betta fish. I just don't have the space for a bigger, 5 gallon tanks, but I don't have enough confidence to keep the smaller 2.5 gallon tanks with filtration; although, for Kam I won't be putting him into a larger tank because of his weakened condition. Well then, I'll have to keep a 2.5 gallon that will be filtered.[: I'm very interested in giving the fish baths, over in-tank medication. Thanks! Thank you so much. Cheri
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Post by Carl on Sept 30, 2014 12:25:18 GMT -5
There is no way to accurately measure how much since each tank is unique.
I would use your nitrates as a gauge, if your nitrates start falling below 15 ppm, you likely not getting enough food for the bacteria. However at 40 ppm, your bacteria are more than well fed.
Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 30, 2014 17:23:00 GMT -5
+1^^. The food and your fishes poop is doing a fine job of feeding the 'good' bacteria
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Oct 1, 2014 11:55:21 GMT -5
Hi, Thank you, Carl for your excellent help and guideline regarding the nitrates!
Devon, The 5 gallon tank that I was talking about is the one being used for seeding purposes only. No fish live in this tank.
I'm pretty excited to getting the bettas tanks running with filtration. I'll be doing one tank at a time though. I am ordering two heaters today, and when they arrive, I will start a new tank with some of the seeded matrix, and sponge filtration and I want to be sure that it all gets established, before introducing the betta this time.
Also, I want to keep bio-lif in the tanks because the PH is so high, and for the medicinal benefits. Will the bio-lif have any adverse effect on the bio-bugs while the tank is getting established? Will Seachems stability help with the process? I haven't tried this yet, but I'll order some just in case.
Your help is much appreciated and educational.
Cheri
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Post by Carl on Oct 1, 2014 13:33:16 GMT -5
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Oct 1, 2014 13:55:38 GMT -5
Hey Carl,
I already placed my order and bought some Stability. I won't rush in to use it...but will have some ready, if it's needed.
From a past order, I still have 3 packets of the Bio-lif on hand, and would like to use these first. I'll need a good source to buy Almond leaves from, eventually. If you have a recommendation...much apprectiated.(: When I start running out of the Bio-lif, by switching over to the Frog moss, would that be a shock or cause the bettas any stress,...what's your thought? If not, then I will go that route.
Thanks!(:
Cheri
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 1, 2014 18:08:27 GMT -5
ok. Just using fish food (and Stability as an aid if you want), will seed the filter. You don't need to keep adding ammonia once you see an ammonia spike and have it come back down. Watch for the cycle. Should be enough. BTW, I use the frog moss in my HOB and it works well for me
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