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Post by angelminx on Sept 19, 2014 12:50:58 GMT -5
I think some of the problem lies with the source-stock, some of it may have to do with care/age, but a lot from genetics. My biggest problem is that, other than thru the internet (where you usually can't pick out one specific individual), I only have 2 sources anywhere near where I live from which to purchase fish: Petco and Petsmart. Except for my last Betta (a beautiful, and active, Dragonscale male), who committed suicide, my last 3 (purchased thru both stores) developed large tumors and eventually died--probably because of them--after I had them less than 6 months at the most. King is doing great so far.
Maybe, if you can find a different source for you fish, you should try once more, using the knowledge you've gained. Just find a way to block any large openings on the tank, to keep the fish from "running away" like Dragon, and others I've had, did. My sister-in-law's Dad used to raise Bettas, but that was before we ever moved out here to Illinois. Possibly, by going to one of the big Betta Clubs' websites, you might find a suggestion on sources.
Don't give up yet. I know I've wanted to a few times, and even though I've been at this for a while, I still feel like a novice.
Angelminx
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 19, 2014 16:20:08 GMT -5
I hope some of the information is helping. Fish and even bettas shouldn't be to difficult with some simple understand and if their health is pretty good when you pick them up. Don't rule yourself out of fish just yet. Your just learning what you need to do, so it would be a shame not apply it.
I would suggest keeping salt in the tank, if this is the last treatment. Also try to keep good parameters.
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 20, 2014 11:39:47 GMT -5
Hi,
Angelmix,
When I brought Kam home he was an active, beautiful, healthy-looking Dragon-scale betta. Changing the PH on him too quickly is what caused his immune system to be compromised.
The bettas I've bought, have also come from the two major pet, chain stores you mentioned. There was one dying betta that I bought from 'wally-mart'. He was the last one in the store and I couldn't leave him in that filthy cup. He came home and had warm water and the taste of bld. worms. His color came back and he was a n orange betta. He died from dropsy four days later. It's such a vicious cycle, when we buy the bettas from the stores because it keeps the breeders in business. With Kam, I had not gone to the store to even look at bettas. When I was walking through the store I noticed that the betta cups were stacked on top of each other. So I went to tell the store manager, and you can tell that they're not at all concerned, so I went to un-stack the cups and voila...a new betta, Kam!
Devon,
Keeping salt in the tank, how do I keep it at a safe, level? I usually will change out approximately 1 cup of water everyday, by sucking out poo with a turkey baster, and removing a little surface water build up. Sometimes only 1/2 a cup, just depends. Is salt in the tank something I should be doing for Kim and Kams' tanks, also?
Another subject: The 5 gallon tank I'm fishless cycling with ammonia. Well I let the nitrates build up way too high, a couple of times. So now, the day after I feed the tank w/ammonia, I test ammonia and nitrites. The nitrites are 0 but, the ammonia still shows a trace to about .25. Is there anything I can do to fix the bio or just tear it down and start over?
Many Thanks and much appreciated.
Cheri
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 20, 2014 13:35:43 GMT -5
Hi,
Angelmix,
When I brought Kam home he was an active, beautiful, healthy-looking Dragon-scale betta. Changing the PH on him too quickly is what caused his immune system to be compromised.
The bettas I've bought, have also come from the two major pet, chain stores you mentioned. There was one dying betta that I bought from 'wally-mart'. He was the last one in the store and I couldn't leave him in that filthy cup. He came home and had warm water and the taste of bld. worms. His color came back and he was a n orange betta. He died from dropsy four days later. It's such a vicious cycle, when we buy the bettas from the stores because it keeps the breeders in business. With Kam, I had not gone to the store to even look at bettas. When I was walking through the store I noticed that the betta cups were stacked on top of each other. So I went to tell the store manager, and you can tell that they're not at all concerned, so I went to un-stack the cups and voila...a new betta, Kam!
Devon,
Keeping salt in the tank, how do I keep it at a safe, level? I usually will change out approximately 1 cup of water everyday, by sucking out poo with a turkey baster, and removing a little surface water build up. Sometimes only 1/2 a cup, just depends. Is salt in the tank something I should be doing for Kim and Kams' tanks, also?
Another subject: The 5 gallon tank I'm fishless cycling with ammonia. Well I let the nitrates build up way too high, a couple of times. So now, the day after I feed the tank w/ammonia, I test ammonia and nitrites. The nitrites are 0 but, the ammonia still shows a trace to about .25. Is there anything I can do to fix the bio or just tear it down and start over?
Many Thanks and much appreciated.
Cheri It's 1 tsps per 5 gallon for therapeutic and 1 tsps per gallon for treatments (30 min bath). That article on salt has studies about how much salt has been proven for these two. The Nitrites are fine and .25ppm ammonia is not that bad. " *Initial stage; This starts when fish, plants, food or any organics (even small amounts of air born organics) are introduced to the aquarium. These organics are broken down via aerobic nitrifying bacteria into either ionized (NH3) or unionized ammonia (NH4). Any amount of NH3 is toxic, however amounts under .05 ppm are generally not an issue and often .0% ppm will appear even in healthy aquariums in the ebb and flow of the nitrogen cycle" www.fishbeginner.info/home/nitrogen-cycle/Just use a little Prime.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2014 21:34:21 GMT -5
Yes, with salt you replace what you remove. It can get into small amounts especially if you're only replacing the amount for 1 cup, which is 1/16 of a gallon.
I wonder if in that case you could do it in a similar approach to what you relayed for powdered meds. So at the strength you're working with, make up a solution large enough to let you add a measurable amount of salt like 1/2 teaspoon, then extract 1 cup of that to put in the tank... just a thought.
A couple things if you haven't worked with salt before... It needs to be fully dissolved so I often dissolve it in a small amount of hot water first then add to the larger volume.... and you need to be aware that salt does NOT EVAPORATE. This means if water in the tank evaporates making the water level lower, just be aware it has NOT lost any salt. Therefore if you top up the level of water, do not add salt. Very important because if you do add you are increasing the total quantity of salt in the tank.
Devon, just checking my own understanding on ratio of salt. By 'tsps' do you mean teaspoons or tablespoons? My understanding has always been ( and less is fine of course) but that the typical ratio for say quarantine or ongoing use.. which I think you mean by therapeutic.. would be 1 TABLESPOON to 5 gallons water ( ie. 3 teaspoons as 3 teaspoons= 1 tablespoon). not sure if we just use different abbreviations or if my understanding is off? At this rate it's a .6 tsp/ gallon going up to 1 tsp/ gallon like you say for baths. Think I'm over doing it?
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Post by Carl on Sept 22, 2014 8:59:39 GMT -5
Here is a snip from "Aquarium Answers; Salt Use in Freshwater Aquariums" "As a generalization when it comes to sodium chloride salts, I have found 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons works safely as a preventative for many community aquariums. For therapeutic levels in aquariums or baths, 1 Teaspoon per one gallon is a good starting point (it can be higher in many cases)."Keep in mind this is a very basic generalization and not a hard and fast rule Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.htmlCarl
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 22, 2014 15:10:43 GMT -5
Thanks Angelmix! That's a good idea to make up a solution of salt & water to keep on hand, to replace the amount of water that's removed from the tank after using the turkey baster, and skimming off surface water.
Very important reminder. Do not top off evaporated tank water with the salt & water solution. Use RO water or treated tap water to top off evaporated tank water. Also, I know that salt must be dissolved before adding it into a tank or in a bath, otherwise it'll burn the fish.
Devon, So in time, with good water parameters and water changes, are you saying that the trace amounts of ammonia that continue to remain in the, fishless ammonia-fed only tank, should eventually come around to 0 reading?
Also, you say to add Prime. That'll be okay in the fishless tank because Prime is what I dose it with. For the tanks that the bettas live, I use Novaqua+/Amquel+. I made the switch from Prime to Novaqua+ Amquel+, back around June-ish, at the time B-blue first started biting off his caudal fin. The local LFS told me that several customers had stopped using Prime as their fish started getting burnt. Now they stopped selling Prime. They thought maybe that's what was irritating B-blue, and causing him to bite his fins. I don't know. He did stop biting himself, and now this...whatever this is it's so aggressive and continues to keep spreading... I took this picture 2 days ago.
I just want to let you all know, that I fill a 5 gallon bucket with 3 gallons tap water, a bubbler, and driftwood and then I add 18 drops of Amquel+ and let it settle for 1 hr. to 1/2 a day. Then I add 2 gallons of RO water and 1 teaspoon of Novaqua+ and 1/2 teaspoon Replenish. I let all this settle for at LEAST 24+ hrs. before I begin using it for the fishes tanks. I just use out of it what is needed at the time and when it gets down to a gallon or less than I start it over always keeping 'ready water' on hand. Usually by the 3rd or 4th day I add 1/2 small wonder shell. But, I always keep 1/4 wonder shell in the bettas tanks. I use to have a heater in the bucket but since it broke I warm some of the water in the microwave, add it back into the bucket to bring it very close within a degree or two to match the bettas tanks. I hope to buy a heater soon before the weather gets colder. Right now the water warms up pretty close to the same temp. as the bettas tanks. Nice!
Thanks so much. Cheri
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 16:06:49 GMT -5
That's a good idea to make up a solution of salt & water to keep on hand, to replace the amount of water that's removed from the tank after using the turkey baster, and skimming off surface water.
Very important reminder. Do not top off evaporated tank water with the salt & water solution. Use RO water or treated tap water to top off evaporated tank water. I was only really suggesting making up the correct dose that way,not to 'keep on hand'. I guess you could but then there are PH, temperature changes to consider. The amount isn't that much. I'd likely just make it each time with treated tap. (unless R/O is your usual drill I guess)
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 22, 2014 16:34:28 GMT -5
Thank you for the correction not to keep an 'on hand' supply of the salt water mix. Maybe it will be okay then to take some of the premixed water out from the 5 gallon bucket I use, and add salt to it as needed?
Thank you.
Cheri
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 22, 2014 18:09:02 GMT -5
Cheri,
This sounds like a great way to get water ready for on-hand use. I would use put the salt in the betta tank, as needed.
As for the betta biting his caudal fin. This is the second post in the forum today about betta's biting their fins. I have never heard of this and don't think it is something that actually happens. I have also not had a problem with Prime burning anything (when used properly). This burning sounds more like high ammonia/nitrites.
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Post by Carl on Sept 22, 2014 20:09:30 GMT -5
I would have to respectfully but firmly disagree. The formulas of Amquel Plus and Prime are very similar using complexed hydrosulfite salts. Considering the fact SeaChem spends more time in research than Kordon and supports professional aquarium suppliers versus Kordon's move to discounters; I also have more trust in SeaChem than Kordon. More importantly with opinions aside, I have been using Prime for almost 2 decades with a variety of fish. Including large aquariums and small bowls and nave never seen this product burn fish when used correctly. Likely there is another issue that is/was being missed. It is often easy for misinformed LSFs to blame what might seem like the obvious, when if fact the science simply does not support this (at least via a controlled test). A good example is the so-called Melafix dangers to Bettas which was nothing more than a hoax based on bad science. Reference: www.fish-as-pets.com/2008/12/melafix-dangers-labyrinth-fish.htmlCarl
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 21:07:52 GMT -5
Thank you for the correction not to keep an 'on hand' supply of the salt water mix. Maybe it will be okay then to take some of the premixed water out from the 5 gallon bucket I use, and add salt to it as needed? Thank you. Cheri Cheri, I just meant that I hadn't thought of the keeping a batch on hand idea, so that part is YOUR idea It's a goodie I think.. I'm just hesitating on being too specific about what water to use as I haven't read through carefully enough to know all your methods. I use 78º fresh treated tap water for water changes so it wouldn't work so well for me, but if you normally age water in a 5 gal bucket and use it at room temp then there wouldn't be any change in temp or PH, so that sounds perfect to me. Just for example (though you decide what ratio of salt you want to use): If you're working with 3 teaspoons (1 tablespoon) per 5 gallons water, that equals .6 teaspoon per 1 gallon. You could simply add .6 tsp to 1 gallon (I sometimes just round it down to .5 for ease) and then when you draw out 1 cup, replace with 1 cup of this water.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 21:13:05 GMT -5
As for the betta biting his caudal fin. This is the second post in the forum today about betta's biting their fins. See, it's not just me! lol Just a little fyi guys, I'm just oging to post some pics of my 'presumed' cases of fin chewing in my post about it.. Diva Betta rejecting HOB filter... take a look and lemme know your thoughts, k
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 23, 2014 13:34:16 GMT -5
I would have to respectfully but firmly disagree. The formulas of Amquel Plus and Prime are very similar using complexed hydrosulfite salts. Considering the fact SeaChem spends more time in research than Kordon and supports professional aquarium suppliers versus Kordon's move to discounters; I also have more trust in SeaChem than Kordon. More importantly with opinions aside, I have been using Prime for almost 2 decades with a variety of fish. Including large aquariums and small bowls and nave never seen this product burn fish when used correctly. Likely there is another issue that is/was being missed. It is often easy for misinformed LSFs to blame what might seem like the obvious, when if fact the science simply does not support this (at least via a controlled test). A good example is the so-called Melafix dangers to Bettas which was nothing more than a hoax based on bad science. Reference: www.fish-as-pets.com/2008/12/melafix-dangers-labyrinth-fish.htmlCarl Carl, Thank you. I didn't actually believe the LFS that Prime was the cause of B-blues irritation, and his biting the caudal fin. But, I was thought maybe there had been some drastic change in the counties wells that caused some sort of reaction when adding in Prime... But not understanding fully about water chemistry, even though I continue to re-read your articles, I just haven't gotten that, Ah-ha moment, yet . (To be truthful, I have trouble with comprehension. So sometimes it takes longer to get even basics).
B-blue, the Furan 2 & Kanamycin treatments have run their course. I have 1 tsp. aquarium salt as in-tank treatment. I want to know what can be done to help him, if anymore can be done to help him. I stress out too badly when I give him baths. (oddly, I give Kim & Kam daily baths and they go well). He's so lively, ambushing me as I walk by, curious, loves to eat(feed me Seymour). Is there anything else I can do for him, other than keeping him comfortable?
If I switch back to using Prime, will this cause any stress on the bettas? I previously would add 2 drops of Prime to 1 gallon of tap water. I's also add 1 drop of Prime to RO water, just to be on the safe side from possible chloramines. Using Prime was always an easier process when preparing 5 gallons of bucket water, because I can mix the tap and RO water in at the same time and add 8 drops of Prime, and 1/2 tsp. of Replenish and than let it age for 24+ hrs. with an air bubbler and driftwood.
Seapetal, I appreciate what you said...and I do agree that making up the salt mix as needed is actually lots better. That way there is no guessing on the correct amount. Me too...I like to round measurements to the nearest even number and using a tad less when adding salt; .5 tsp. per gallon sounds better.
I read your thread on the 'Diva betta', and I hope the very best will come about for your beautiful fish and you. I see the caudal fin where he has taken bites. I agree that he has chomped on his caudal fin. B-blue, when he was first put into the 2.5 gallon tank, there is a silk plant with cup-like flowers, as a resting place for him. And then I noticed his caudal looking ragged. So I started watching and sure enough, he would curl up in the flower, where his caudal caught his attention, and then he would chomp on it! This is a picture of the damaged fin taken about 6 weeks after he started biting. I'd been using Bettafix. Then started getting 'white areas' on his caudal and now... I noticed, that since I put live Java ferns in his tank he hangs out in them and not the silk plant. Yea. Rarely, though sometimes I see him circling around to bite his caudal.
I plan to order another heater to replace the one that broke, used for the 5 gallon bucket.
My apologies for so long a thread. Thank you.
Cheri
Pic of B-blues caudal on the heal. This happened back in June this year.
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2014 16:06:34 GMT -5
The salt is definitely therapeutic is at 1 teaspoon per 1 gallon. Since often a factor in defeating bacteria such Columnaris, is mineral Cations. So regular use of a Wonder Shell is helpful. You can use a Medicated Wonder Shell up to once per month. Have you actually observed this? If so a picture or video would be very interesting as I have never observed a Betta biting his own tail Carl
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2014 16:35:01 GMT -5
I found some videos where persons were claiming that their Betta was biting their tails. I still was not able to see the Betta successfully bit his tail, so it may be damage from spinning around as he chased his tail. MORE IMPORTANTLY; in every instance the Betta was showing classic Betta aggression which would indicate a healthy fish, not a sickly fish. Adding a mirror or something else to focus his aggression elsewhere might help Here is one example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1n0T2gP3_YCarl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 23, 2014 16:52:19 GMT -5
The only other thing I can think of for some serious results is the fish baths. Only if your conformable.
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 23, 2014 21:43:07 GMT -5
Hi,
OOPS...I only added 1/2 tsp. per gallon. I'll add 1 more tsp. tomorrow to the 2 gallons of water. I keep 1/4 of a sm, wonder shell in the tank. If I add a sm. medicated wonder shell into the tank, how often and how much water should I change out, so not to let the water become toxic?
As far as baths for him, I get so nervous trying to get him out of the tank and then out of the bath, and that's very stressful on him. He is so fast and escapes the different ways I've tried to catch him, he's difficult to get. Both Kam & Kim are in their 6th day of baths, and no problem to scoop them up. Kims' popeye isn't showing any improvement. Should I continue the last 2 doses of the Erythromycin, salt, MB, or try something else?
I wish I would have taken a video of B-blues' tail biting. The U-TUBE link on your post Carl, well that's exactly what B-blue did! His tail would catch his attention, and he would just go in for the attack. It started happening so often, that as soon as he'd start to circle for his tail, I usually could get his attention off his tail...but not always.
Sometime the bettas would get a little 'mirror' time. Every time they poo'd. So, what I did for B-blue was to set his tank closer to Kims. I hesitated in doing it because he is so aggressive I didn't want her to be stressed, but with a plant in between the tanks, and the side of his tank that's next to hers is mostly covered. It seems to be working out, good. When B-blues watching her and she swims over his way, he takes off swimming to the opposite side of his tank. I really don't know why he stopped biting his tail. I don't know if it has anything to do with the Java plant, or being able to see another fish? Whatever it may be I am very happy he's done with the biting, for now...
Thank You for quick responses and Thank you all for the help and support. Cheri
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cheri
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Post by cheri on Sept 23, 2014 21:47:13 GMT -5
Hey, If I switch back to using Prime as the conditioner, will this cause stress to the fish?
Thanks, Cheri
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2014 9:14:03 GMT -5
Only change water when changing out Medicated Wonder Shell, otherwise you will lower effectiveness. The Wonder Shell when used correctly will not add enough medication to make the water toxic. From Wonder Shell Web Page: "*Do not dilute the aquarium bowl water by changing more than 10% water during treatment with a Medicated Wonder Shell, this only lowers effectiveness of the MWS."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlThe main point is this shows a very active Betta, so if he is showing such behavior, I would not go over board with treatments. As per the Aquarium Disease Prevention article, too much care can be an issue. Please Read: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#overcareThe above article is one I feel very strongly should be followed as closely as possible, as it is backed up by many controlled tests proving the steps effectiveness. No, I have switched between the two many times in the past and actually had better results with Chlormines and ammonia using Prime. Unfortunately if no improvement has been seen by now, likely no improvement is going to be forth coming. Sadly pop eye is often very difficult to treat. You might switch out Erythromycin for Kanamycin Also Reference Aquarium Medications; Change Meds Section: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#change_medCarl
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