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Post by eve on Jan 11, 2009 23:44:53 GMT -5
totally awesome
so i guess that solves your problem regards picking out unfertalized eggs yourself then
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 23:57:52 GMT -5
Thanks Steph and Eve. Well she's transporting them as she sees them, but you know what's funny? I'll watch her doing her thing, and scan really close into the gravel, see a few tails wiggeling in the gravel, and she just goes right by them. I wish I could tell her, hey, you just passed over a couple of your kids struggeling to move around LOL. I'd consider just taking the shells out and clean them off to eliminate any chances of a fungal spread, but she keeps going back to that shell over and over, though it appears 95% of all viable fertilized eggs are now gone. I'll give her another day or so and see if she even bothers with it. Given that Polka dot Botia had dinner off the other site, I think if they stop watching the shells, he just might clean it off for me.
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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 0:27:03 GMT -5
Congrats Jon!
Is that a fry I saw at about .04 on the second video near the bottom of the tank?
Carl
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 0:34:55 GMT -5
It's possible Carl, but I tell you, these guys, they are very very small, maybe like in the 1/16 of an inch range. The only way I could tell they were on the shells hatching, was getting up on the glass and peering and squinting in. I'd see what looked like clear debris or something flailing off one of the eggs, and when I fine tuned in to see, it turned out to be it was a tail flailing around and basically, like a fish with the yolk sac still attached, but trying to get off the shell surface. Mom would just come along and detach it, move it to the pile behind the shells and dad just sits there over the site. Between those two, no one's getting to them, but I'm wondering if I should or shouldn't be trying to mix in smaller foods for them
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Post by brenda on Jan 12, 2009 0:36:35 GMT -5
That is awesome Jon...Congrats....
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 0:43:53 GMT -5
Thank you thank you thank you!! I'm still like wow here, and they have to make it still. Mom and dad are doing a wonderful job looking out for them so far, but until I see something like 1/4 to 1/3 inch size ranges, I'm still gonna be worried and wonder LOL. I really have no idea how many to expect either. I estimate she laid about 300-500 eggs, but who the heck can really count that many anyways. All I see left on the shells are just the white ones. I'm guessing there should be about 200 or so pulled off the shell because I saw a rather large amount of black dots in the group yesterday. To me, and keep in mind this is my first time with an egg laying species, it seems to be a very very rapid incubation period. She laid those eggs sometime between thursday night and friday morning and now by sunday night, they are hatching.
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Post by brenda on Jan 12, 2009 0:51:38 GMT -5
Holy cow that is fast!!!! Even if they didn't make it this first time at least you got them to spawn...That says something and you haven't even had them that long.
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 15:25:11 GMT -5
Now it appears very much that the female is done with her work, since they hatched. Now it's 95% all the male watching over the hatchlings and the female is out and about the tank. This is truly a new and gratifying learning experience here. All my other times with the Malawi and other Africans, dad plays little to no role at all other then sperm addition, and is actually the biggest threat to the fry. What I am seeing in this species now, is pretty much what I'd expect to see out of a South American, rather then an African.
I tell you, this really leads me to wonder or think, based on the sheer appearence of many Madagascars, and now seeing this parental care levels by the male, there must have been at some point in time, a connection to South America. The looks of the fish themselves are almost alike in many species, plus the male's role I see in fry care.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 12, 2009 18:27:53 GMT -5
congrats bud.....hope ya have a huge healthy spawn....pretty rewarding experience.
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Post by jonv on Jan 13, 2009 22:24:31 GMT -5
Thanks Bill. Given the sheer size of these guys it really is impossible to have any idea of what number of fry or eggs made it. Seriously, you know what they look like right now? Water fleas. They are in the gravel, being watched over, and you have to put your face to the glass to have any chance of seeing anything. Left over crushed flake foods and small bits of waste material are bigger then these guys. If you wait and watch the area mom moved them too, every now and then you can see them jumping up and down in the area.
Now comes the problem. It's starting to get quite an accumulation of waste debris and small foods here and there, and it's beginning to cloud the tank up slightly. I am very afraid to do even just a water change, as the incomming water is likely to create a current in there unless added extremely slow, and scatter them all over the tank. Not to mention, I have no confidence at all I could gravel vacuum out that debris and not effect those fish. Suggestions anyone?
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Post by eve on Jan 14, 2009 1:54:38 GMT -5
actually, i personally would just go ahead and do a water change, as they really need fresh water
in the area of the fry, i would go in with a turkey baster actually, and try to siphon as close as possible to that area
try to drop food at least a foot away from the fry are i kinda have the feeling that the parents will bring the food to them
with the actually siphon, i would try to stay away at least half a foot
as for siphoning in general, if you do by any chance siphon up any fry, and you use a bucket to do the water change, you still always have the chance to net out the fry from there
but hey, that's me
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 14, 2009 2:08:33 GMT -5
i recommend doing a full water change....but this one time don`t syphon through the gravel....just syphon from the top of the tank. when they are larger and show color in a couple weeks do an extra good gravel clean. as far as pouring the water in.....the mother should have them in a corner with a glass wall protecting on one side......pour the water into the other side or a hose direct from the sink to the tank. add a cap or 2 of declorinater afterwards
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Post by jonv on Jan 14, 2009 8:03:26 GMT -5
Good options out there Bill and Eve. I may actually consider trying to get all of them out with the baster and transplant them to the 2.5 gallon tank. My concern over trying to move them is, mom and dad seem to be doing a very good job of looking after them in a medium sized stock setting and some really nasty aggressive Tilapia in there. I can say, in the future, Carl mentioned that most egg laying spawns he's done or worked with, the use of a non gravel tank worked well and I think it sure would have in this case. I may just try to move the males and females into a gravel empty tank, maybe my 15 if not being used otherwise, when I try to spawn them.
If I try baster removal of the debris, which I'm not saying is a bad idea, it's likely to turn cleaning that tank out, seriously, into an all day project. It might however be the only option I have if I want to remove the waste though. Verizon is comming tomorrow to change out my cable and ISP service, so whatever I'm going to do, would be best to do it today.
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Post by Carl on Jan 14, 2009 10:50:47 GMT -5
A freind of mine in LA who professionally breeds Discus and Angels kept the tanks bare with just Sponge Filters and an over flow through water change system (these over flows had a sponge to prevent fry from being removed) He used both air line tubing and a baster as Eve noted for removal of debris on the bottom. I myself have used similar, but for the over flow system, which if I ever got back into this (maybe when I have an "empty nest") I would definitely employ the additon of the over flow system as I really believe it made a difference (I believe this even more now based on my newest research in Redox Balance, Reduction, Potential) Carl
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Post by jonv on Jan 16, 2009 16:15:00 GMT -5
I can see the fry a little easier now. I can see that they are well free of any egg yolk sac and are about the same size as maybe Convict fry at about a week or so of age. What I can see of them, is like tiny black dots moving around and swimming, no longer jumping up and down from the substrate to up in the water, but moving around in the substrate. The water by far is still too cloudy to try to get any images at all.
Next time around I am going to try to isolate females and male into the 15 in an empty substrate and just a few shells in, and see if that changes things. I also strongly believe that I have a female Obliquedin holding also. Mouth is always closed up pretty tight, and staying away from the rest of the group, and I don't or haven't seen her go after food. The only thing missing is the typical pouch you see in the mouth/throat area. The mouth being closed up tight though, usually is another good sign.
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Post by jonv on Jan 16, 2009 19:01:13 GMT -5
The count on the fry for the Yellow Lab, fourth spawn in the last six months, so far is an easy count of 19, but I didn't move any of the decor around. I'm confident that if I took everything out of the tank, and the mom out, there would be at least about 25 or more in there. When I clean out the tank I'll get an accurate count. So far without looking very hard and deep, I was able to find 19 so far.
For Brenda, asking what Mbuna I have overall, well keep in mind this is spread over three tanks so it's easier to say what's in each one.
180 for Mbuna has: 2 male, 4 female Kenyi 2 male Yellow labs (the female will be in this weekend, she's still in the 15 gallon) 2 known male Ps. Flavus, but there are also 15 juveniles that I can only clearly see 2 females out of them. It'd probably safer to just say 17 Ps. Flavus and not look at gender because I really can't tell still 1 male Johanni 1 male Auratus.
There are a couple other Mbuna in there that I cannot clearly ID as they have a close look to about three species. I suspect they are Acei's but I don't see a distinct yellow on the dorsal and tail fins. It's tinged slightly yellow but might also be orange, hard to say. It's not deeply showing either. There are 3 of these, and all appear to be male.
In the 100:
35 2 month old Yellow Labs, and 1 very bumblebee looking one. I think this guy got leftover out of an auction of Fullerboni I took from Wayne NJ back in Sept. I swear it looks like a Bumblebee, but I'm not sure. Very deeply yellow with black stripes in a pattern that looks like a Kenyi. It's not a Kenyi though. The yellow on it is very very deep golden yellow and the stripes stand out more distinctly thena Kenyi. There's just one of it, and it's still only 1 inch long. That's it for Mbuna.
The 75 over in Hackettstown has 2 Ps. Elongatus, males, 4 Yellow Labs, 6 months old, appears to be 1 male and 3 females. This is the group left over from what I gave John. I moved 15 over, but that chemistry issue killed most of them. 2 male Fullerboni, and I also moved that big blue Metriclimea Zebra over there because that pervert kept trying to cross breed with that same female and 2 of my Peacocks.
It's also worth mentioning, the 180 currently houses those Obliquedins, and also has the Tropheus Dubosi in there.
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Post by brenda on Jan 18, 2009 9:59:43 GMT -5
So not too many mbuna. Just a lot of rearranging to get it all the way you want it.
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Post by jonv on Jan 19, 2009 22:55:26 GMT -5
Wish the lighting didn't screw this up so bad or that the Venustus didn't interfere with them so much but I watched the Protomelas Steveni's spawn today, this time, not a water change, but about an hour or so after a heavy live food feeding. She would drop about 4-5 eggs at a time. Just couldn't get close enough to show the eggs. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_1156a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_1156b.flvI tried really hard to capture what I can see with my eyes, but appears I may be able to clean on this side of the tank now. This is about a week into growth from hatching and now they are able to stay out of the substrate and upper into the water now. The parents have really cleared out this area to where you can see the glass and are both watching over this area very well. Guesstimate on the number, about 50? s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2207a.flvPseudotropheus Crabro I picked up on Tuesday, the Fulu moving around and the 2 month old Yellow Labs, and at the end, the Tilapia Bythobates which are from Mozambique. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2207b.flvThis is a much better shot of that deformed Tilapia Bythobate. I call him Gargantuan. He's so much bigger then all the others of his species, I am just assuming this is a male. Messed up mouth and all, he still grows and grows and is a rather nasty guy when it comes to playing with others. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2207c.flvThese yellows don't seem to much care they are right outside of the spawning pit of some much bigger meaner Africans, and the fulu just watches on LOL. 2 months old and these males want to have a show down in a 100 gallon tank, go figure. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2208a.flvOne of my 2 Paratilapia Polleni that are really getting their spots in well. These guys get quite nasty among themselves as well. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2208b.flvTried to give an idea of what I think a male and female as based on the spots. Best I could get for now of the ones displaying well, and how plain looking the others are. As I understand this species, the males will get most of the spots and will get jet midnight black. These are the two showing very well and the ones more plain are the ones I suspect are female. If I have this right I have 2 males and 4 females. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2209a.flvThis again is the Bythobates, and what I feel is dimorphism in them as well. The much darker one is one I suspect of being female, but I really do not know. I tried to illustrate the size and color differences best I could. In this shot which is a good backed out view, you can see the whole community in action. The yellows' the fulu's , the Bythobates, and in the background, the spawn nest of the Oligocanthus. What I can also say, Tilapia Bythobates look EXACTLY like Tilapia Synderea, and the only way to tell the difference is the size. Bythobates get about 12-13 cms full grown, Synderea, about 6-7. Otheriwse, they look exactly alike. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2210a.flvTried again to get shots of the Oligocanthus fry, but very difficult. I'll try again tomorrow after I do some cleaning in there. Look past the fake leaf towards the bottom. That's where they all are. A nice size group of them. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2211a.flvFrom slightly higher up, I shot this looking downward so you could see, just how much excavating these two have done. This is right down to the glass. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2211b.flvFinally to close out, one of the five different cory species I have. This one is my favorite. I think they are Cory Plateus? Something like that? I really like the looks of this species. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=011909_2212a.flv
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Post by brenda on Jan 19, 2009 23:21:37 GMT -5
Cool vids!!! Your Pollenis are looking AWESOME!!!
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 19, 2009 23:22:41 GMT -5
what are the blues swimming w/ the yellows? johanis?
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