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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 17:56:04 GMT -5
I just looked in my guppy tank and wondered why one of my guppies, Rena was so fat and I thought she might be pregnant. I took her out and saw blacks spots (probably ulcers) starting to develop. The first one I thought was just a black spot of coloring. I also saw at one side, it looked like her scales and skin was eroding. She had the beginning of a red area on her. She was the one I treated for septicaemia a while ago and it looks like it came back. After looking at the rest of the tank and confirming that no other ones were infected, I decided to cull her... I chose to do the knife treatment instead of using the alka selzer since I wanted I to be over for her quick. I put a knife to her head and as I pushed harder, I could see she was still breathing. Then, after I thought she was dead, I used the knife to disecte her abdomenal cavity to see if there were any signs of a septicaemia. All I found was black waste and/or intestines. Then I noticed she was still breathing!!!! I used the knife harder on her head and that ended it but I also cut off her face by mistake. :'(I looked at it before I disposed of her. It was very hard to look at. I looked at the face of the beloved fish I had just killed. I just hope by the time I was cutting at her, even though she was breathing that she could not feel anything.... I hate culling. Sometimes I ask myself who I am to call myself a fish breeder and keeper if I do things like this to them....
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 27, 2008 18:07:34 GMT -5
don`t be so quick to do this Renee.....we may be able to help....btw....very disturbing and graphic image in my head....
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 18:12:06 GMT -5
The rest of the fish in the tank seem fine. I looked them over. This was the second time this guppy had septicaemia. I couldn't bear to see her go through treatment again, this time not withe her sister but isolated. I remember isolating a female guppy to give brith this Saturday and for 2 days, she hid and sulked, and wouldn't eat. Eventually, I figured out the problem and I added her back in with the others and she is fine now, eating and swimming very actively. I didn't want this gril to have to go through that but isntead it ended up being even worse...
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Post by jonv on Oct 27, 2008 18:14:09 GMT -5
Thanks Bill. I don't know how to say this and I might say something that comes off wrong here, but there's a few things you need to absorb Renee. Before you start treating and putting meds in any tank, you need to be absolutely certain that there is even a problem and you are treating the right way. Putting in meds just to put meds in is most of the time, only going to make things worse as it is. This could very well sound uncaring and cruel, but I tell you, sometimes your best course of action is to just let things be for a bit and see if a fish can make it through. Fish have immune systems just as well do and as bad as this might sound, I usually hold off acting on anything unless some fish start dying.
You can help your fish better then adding meds by keeping your water as nitrate free as possible and if this means doing water changes every day, then do it. We all make mistakes and I've lost many a fish as well. Don't get beat up too bad that you lost one, but use this as a learning experience like Bill said. Don't be too quick to act and don't be too hasty in judgement either.
Totally non related, but I see many times our group, we kind of post posts that are very social by content and discussion and I tend to not comment too much. I guess what I'm saying, many times, you learn more by just watching and observing then acting as well. I have lost at least 4-5 fish that I really really liked, but it is a normal cycle of life. Show me any living organism that doesn't die at some point in time. Please just stop adding meds to your tank unless you are 100% certain you need to and you know what is wrong.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 18:20:07 GMT -5
I never added meds to her tank for septicaemia this time. I had seen her body swelling and a spot I thought was septicaemia earlier but I ignored it and decided to see what happened. It appears she may have been carrying this dormantly or perhaps it disappeared but never totally went away. I remember the first time I was medicating her when she first got it, I gave a 1/2 dose of and it turned out 1 tablet was for 5 gallons, not 10 so I ended up being only 1/4 normal dosage. I didn't notice that until 1/2 way trhough treatment. Then I gave it to her for a longer time and the septicaemia disappeared. I'm very sorry that I did that. I wuish it could have been over sooner for her...
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Post by brenda on Oct 27, 2008 18:24:13 GMT -5
don`t be so quick to do this Renee.....we may be able to help....btw....very disturbing and graphic image in my head.... I agree Bill. I could flush a fish far before trying to cut it up.... I also agree that next time wait a while. I would rather move them to a seperate tank and let them die naturally, if they are going to die.
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Post by sammiesam on Oct 27, 2008 18:24:20 GMT -5
yeah I can't say I understand why you jumped so quick to culling the fish...but it still sucks either way
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 18:27:02 GMT -5
I'm sorry... I thought about it and I thought it would be the least way for her to suffer. I looked at her for several minutes straight to be sure but maybe I was wrong. I'm so sorry for killing her and letting you guys down like this.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 18:30:58 GMT -5
What can I do now to make up for my mistake? I wish I could undo this...
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Post by Carl on Oct 27, 2008 18:40:13 GMT -5
I'm sorry... I thought about it and I thought it would be the least way for her to suffer. I looked at her for several minutes straight to be sure but maybe I was wrong. I'm so sorry for killing her and letting you guys down like this. Renee, you let no one down, we all have our own ways to cull fish (my way is different from many, but is effective) Second, Jon raised some good points that I have tried to make as per Septicemia in particular, I honestly have never felt that this or other fish you have mentioned have had Septicemia, and your partial Necropsy proves this more. Septicemia is a systemic (generally blood, but other systems such as lymph can be involved) infection that is not a disease of its own (although Aeromonas is the most common cause). Water conditions can play a major role in this, and as Jon already noted, medications can be a double edged sword that if used for anything, especially for the wrong problem can only add to your fish' problems. Now this said, some medications such as Melafix are quite inert, and do little peripheral damage, but is also not all that effective past being used as an antiseptic type treatment, not a general cure. This is why water quality is th first step always, followed by anything that can be done outside the display tank (I realize that this is not always possible, especially with large fish) Please take all the comments here (by EVERYONE) as trying to help and support you, not as ANY failure. Carl
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Post by brenda on Oct 27, 2008 18:41:54 GMT -5
All you can do at this point is move on...Next time just give her more time before making such a decision. You didn't let us down...We all make rash decisions sometimes. Just learn from your mistakes.
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Post by jonv on Oct 27, 2008 18:42:30 GMT -5
Nothing now, once a fish passes, it passes. But now you know that the assessment of what was wrong, was wrong in itself. Maybe it was just another fish that got aggressive on it. Maybe it was a reaction to some inert chemical in your water. Could be many things, but if you don't see it spreading out to other fish and fish start showing signs of problems in mass, you just have to let it go is all you can do at this point. I'm sure it won't be the first guppy to die on you, nor will be the last guppy you ever have. Again I know that sounds uncaring, but all living things pass at some point in time.
When I lost my female Flavus because I kept her in a tank too small and with another holding female, I was more mad then hurt because that was really stupid and not thinking. But it happens from time to time. Now I have about 15 of her babies that are all juvenile and I'm watching over them and hoping I have some females in that group and before you know it, that species will be up and breeding again in no time. You have to find the positives in things and not let the negatives of things keep you down.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 18:47:34 GMT -5
I'm so sorry. Carl, I thought you had said it was septicaemia earlier. That's why I thought it was septicaemia again. It looked the same as before.... I guess it wasn't septicaemia and that's why no other fish got infected. I'm very sorry about the message I wrote, if it offended anyone and how graphic it sounded. I'm very sorry fro this. Next time I will post for help before I cull.
Sincerely, Renee
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 27, 2008 18:53:46 GMT -5
in mine and carls previous field of work....and john(8) ....we have all dealt with sick fish....but there is a time for killing and a time for waiting. none of us want a suffering fish......but we don`t want a suffering grandparent either. before drastic measures are done, we need to give their bodies a chance to fix itself. when you are sure of a problem, then that is the way to go, but when you arent, give them time.also, in the future i would stick with the alka seltzer. your method was good.....but the head and body still moved. i promise you tho Renee....that was only nerves. this animal was dead right away....
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 18:58:22 GMT -5
I tested the guppy's water and got the following
PH: 7.0 GH: 180 KH: 200 Chlorine: 0 Nitrate: 10-15 Nitrite: 0 Ammonia: 0
I was treating the fish with Fungus Clear becuase one of my males has a tail fin that is slowly getting eaten away over the past couple weeks. I figured it was from the PH being too low from my tap water which has a PH of about 6.8. I could try checking my tap water again. I will be out the guppy's tank Wenesday because that is when the Fungus Clear treatment is supposed to be done.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 27, 2008 19:01:23 GMT -5
get those nitrates down and those levels are admirable....
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 19:03:03 GMT -5
I'm glad she didn't feel anything. I'm really sorry I did this but it is not the first time I've done something like this. I've had to kill animals that my cats badly wounded before that would have no chance if I left them. Maybe that was wrong too. I'm not sure. I always tried to end it for them to quickly too. My mom lets the cats outside and won't listen to me when I tell her that it is bad that the cats are killing wild animals or bringing them to us half alive.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 19:05:16 GMT -5
Should I do a water change to remove the nitrates now? It would also remove the medication. Should I do a water change now I just leave everything until the medicane wears off Wednesday?
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 27, 2008 19:06:26 GMT -5
that is a situation you have no control over Renee. you do have control what happens in the environment you created tho. and just remember....all science is based on observation and questions....we are all here to help
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 27, 2008 19:09:11 GMT -5
I hope none of you were offended by this. I will stick to alka selzer from now on and before any culling, ask here first. I realize now that whatever she had, it probably wasn't contagious. Some of the other fish would have had it if it was but none do. I was wrong and I will make sure this doesn't happen again. Thanks by the way for all your helpful advice about this.
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