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Post by kagome on Jan 11, 2009 18:31:28 GMT -5
My water has been cloudy in my 38g since I added the air stone. I checked the ammonia, it is hovering between 0 and 0.25. They eat all the food within five minutes of me putting it in the tank. I feed them Hikari sinking catfish wafers and a little bit of Flake Frenzy flake food. In that tank are the three small loaches and the 6" common pleco. The tank has been cleaned and vacuumed less than a week ago, so technically it's due to be cleaned but it is by no means filthy. Could this be just more air mixed into the water?
Current water parameters:
nitrate--20
nitirite--0
Gh--300
Kh--120
pH--6.8
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Post by brenda on Jan 11, 2009 19:52:54 GMT -5
It could just be a bacteria bloom, this is common in newer tanks. The airstone I don't think should have any effect on making it cloudy, and since you have a touch of ammonia I'd say bacteria bloom...If it is it should clear up in a couple days. If you don't already...use prime water conditioner as it will neutralize the ammonia so it is not harmful to your fish.
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Post by Carl on Jan 11, 2009 20:03:21 GMT -5
I 2nd Brenda. Often these clouds take of themselves as the filters become more established. Is this the tank you removed the pre-filter on? If so, maybe adding this back will help. Sorry for my lack of memory, but was this pref-filter a Filter Max 1, 2, or 3. If it is a #3, that is unusual to slow your flow too much except when clogged. If other models (or even the #3) you could "speed" it up by cutting some small holes with scissors. Back to the cloudy water, their are products that can help as well such as Crystal Clear and Permoxin, HOWEVER I consider these as a last resort (or at least the Permoxin which is an oxidizer). The Crystal Clear is a particulate coagulator and does not interfere with bio processes. I have more tips in my Freshwater Bsics article in the Cloudy water section: Freshwater Care and Basics; Cloudy WaterCarl
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Post by kagome on Jan 11, 2009 22:10:27 GMT -5
Carl,
It is the filter max 1 because it was originally in the 10g and that was the only size that would fit in that tank. It cut the flow down so much that I got worried about the lack of flow in the tank. But since I have the air stone in there I'm not worried now that there is enough aeration in the tank so I will put it back on. I'm worried about it being a bacterial bloom because some of the fish are still breathing rapidly. I guess I should order some of the medicines that we talked about and treat the tank. I've had the medicated wondershell in there for a while now but they still seem to be showing symptoms. I looked over the cloudy water article but the only thing that seems to fit is the slightly elevated ammonia.
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Post by Carl on Jan 11, 2009 22:41:10 GMT -5
The FM #1 is definitely small for this size tank high a high flow filter, but it is still better than nothing, and removal to the bottom (which will take it out of the water flow and oxygen provided there in, will cut back on de-nitrification more than one might think as my tests over a decade shoed that even the smallest sponge filters often out perform many larger HOB filters) What are the symptoms that your fish are still showing, and which fish are showing? The Medicated Wonder Shells are best for Velvet, Fungus/Saprolegnia, and mild to moderate cases of Ich (or prevention or follow up treatment after a stronger treatment such ParaGuard. Sorry you did not find more as to the cloudy water from the article, this is generally a relatively simple problem at least as to causes that is. I think ammonia, bacterial bloom as Brenda originally noted is the original cause, As well, most medications (& that includes Medicated Wonder Shells) can exasperate the problem, even if slightly. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 11, 2009 23:00:36 GMT -5
The only symptoms the fish are showing is the rapid breathing. The largest loach is doing it the most. The medium sized loach is doing it a little bit. The smallest loach is not doing it at all, neither is the pleco. All are active and eating, but the effected loaches are breathing rapidly even at rest. Otherwise their behavior is normal.
I also added some Prime to make sure any built ammonia is detoxified.
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Post by Carl on Jan 11, 2009 23:05:44 GMT -5
Medicated Baths with Methylene Blue can help for this, as well as the addition of Prime as ammonia can cause this as well.
Is there any flashing or shimmying?
Is their rapid breathing near the surface?
Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 11, 2009 23:13:28 GMT -5
No, they are not hanging around on the surface. They're doing their usual thing of hanging around mostly on the bottom and mid tank level. I have not seen any flashing. They have mostly been resting under the big stand alone sponge filter, but they always do that. That's been their favorite spot since I put them in the tank.
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Post by eve on Jan 11, 2009 23:37:50 GMT -5
argh, sorry but why would you add any kind of medication?
or any other chemical then a dechlorinator to your tank?
or at the max aquarium salt?
i'm sorry, but i'm a person, where meds are the last resort to anything a cloudy tank, usually indicates a bacterial bloom
caused by a new tank setup, or a replacement of a filter cartridge dont' know if you have done either
but don't medicate a tank if it's just been setup recently
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Post by eve on Jan 11, 2009 23:39:04 GMT -5
oh yeah, and if you're using prime, and are testing for ammonia, it's a waste of testing
as the results will be wrong as well
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 23:54:48 GMT -5
I'm wondering here if the addition of the air stone and the inflow of the O2 may have dislodged debris from the sponge? I bring this up, since I use dual cannisters in my 180, but when I water change and vacuum in the tank, debris that I kick up from getting the siphon in, will temporarily cloud up the tank. Granted, the cloudy effect is rather brownish tinted rather then white, so color might be a key to this.
The presence of ammonia makes me think that Brenda has it on the bacterial bloom, but it is also a very small amount you are reading. I think Carl posted in his articles, and I just don't have it off the top of my head, about the surface area content to house the bacteria, so if debris was getting kicked up, that could have been the influx of the ammonia from there, and trigger the growth. If your media has no room to house new bacteria, this is why you see a continual bloom. Bacteria is trying to grow because it has the fuel source and bountiful O2, but has no where to go and grows but then dies off.
Maybe I'm shooting in the dark here, but a nice good vacuum of the substrate, maybe even twice in a day after you vacuum once, wait about half an hour and do again, might cause the cloudiness to stop. By taking out all the excess waste materials as best you can, you cut off the fuel source for the blooming. Just a guess here.
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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 0:04:52 GMT -5
oh yeah, and if you're using prime, and are testing for ammonia, it's a waste of testing as the results will be wrong as well The testing will still yield ammonia, as the test kit cannot discern between NH3 (ammonia) or NH4 ammonium. But I do not think it is s waste of time, as this way she can know whether or not her ammonia levels are going up or down. The Prime is for converting this ammonia to ammonium thus rending it non-toxic (only the ammonia present at the time is converted though). As per Medication, obviously it is a last resort, which is why I prefer a medicated bath if the symptoms indicate the presnse of a disease or if there is gill damage or internal tissue damge to speed healing and allow for better oxygen availabilty. Methylene Blue is effective as an antidote for other forms of poisoning including damage to the liver and kidneys caused from poisoning (assuming damage is not past the point normal regeneration) due to being reduced by components of the electron transport chain (a chemical reaction between an electron donor and an electron acceptor to the transfer of H+ ions across a membrane, via a set of mediating biochemical Redox reactions). Carl
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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 0:08:34 GMT -5
Jon, I think your theory makes since, especially since a filter has been removed (if understand correctly the flow of events leading up to this).
Honestly, the cloud problem is not all that complicated, and does require any drastic actions IMO, at least at this time, the bigger problem as I see it is whether the bacterial bloom has anything to do with the rapid breathing, or whether their are more serious causes, or both.
Carl
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 0:09:10 GMT -5
The Meth Blue is one of those things I can't say how pleased I am I picked up from you Carl, since they really don't sell this locally. Meth Blue IMO which is limited, is probably the very best thing you could use for a fish suffering any nitrogen compound effects, and as you instructed me as well, I am very careful not to apply this to the tank as a whole due to how harmful it is on bacteria.
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Post by kagome on Jan 12, 2009 0:23:07 GMT -5
Eve--The wondershells were added as a preventive measure to stop the potential spread of mold. This was done at Carl's recommendation. The prime was added to make sure that any ammonia that has built up since my last water change is detoxified. I am aware of the fact that even if I turn the ammonia to ammonium with the Prime that it will still show up on the test. This was done as a precaution to make sure the fish were not suffering from ammonia toxicity.
I think that I made some things unclear in earlier posts. I still have the actual big stand alone sponge filter running (Via Aqua 480 powerhead with a filter max 3). What I removed was the sponge prefilter I moved from the 10g HOB filter to the 38g HOB filter. It was reducing the flow and since the Botia need extra aeration and flow I was concerned and put the sponge on the bottom of the tank. In the morning I will put it back on the intake of the HOB filter and poke a few holes in it to help with the flow. I will also be doing a thorough cleaning and vacuuming.
For my own clarity, is this sort of bacterial bloom harmful to the fish? If this is a bacterial bloom is this what is causing the fish to breath rapidly? So should I just take a wait and see attitude since they are showing no other symptoms?
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 0:31:33 GMT -5
The bloom itself Kag really isn't, IMO. It's the actual nitrogen compounds that are doing the damage, BUT, Carl help me out here, blooms like that could possible deplete the O2 in the tank I think. If I had to guess or bet money, I'd worry more on the nitrogen compounds Kag then the bloom hurting anything. It's just basically a transitional effect you're seeing as the bacteria suspended in the water has no surface area to grow on.
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Post by eve on Jan 12, 2009 0:35:23 GMT -5
actually, ima disagree here
prime will give you a false reading on the ammonia test, i'm sure someone else will say something different on that subject
as for the wondershells, i guess they're not a problem, as carl has tested them
as for the rapid breathing, it could be that you have ammonia in there, which is not detectable
my recommendation on that one do 25% water changes every other day until the cloudiness goes away it sounds like a mini cycle, which won't hurt your fish to much
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 0:39:59 GMT -5
Eve, the wonder shells are basically a Calcium, Magnesium and other electrolytes and minerals you need, in a block that dissolves into the water, to improve on Redox and Osmoregulation and basically, just keep a proper electrolyte balance in the tank. About the only way I can see Wonder Shells possibly clouding a tank would be if you had extremely hard water.
Depends too on the tester. If the tester blocks out NH3-, then your readings do not reflect ionized ammonia. Some just combine them too. You'd have to see what the tester tests for to figure if the Prime is skewing it or not. Basically, if your tester says NH3 and you get a reading, that's not good. If it's showing NH3-, you'd have to be slightly skeptical as to if there is a problem or not.
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Post by kagome on Jan 12, 2009 0:41:31 GMT -5
I don't understand. With the big stand alone sponge filter, the bio grid in the HOB filter, the sponge prefilter sitting on the gravel and the gravel itself, why would the bacteria not have surface area to grow on?
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Post by kagome on Jan 12, 2009 0:44:11 GMT -5
my ammonia test kit tests for NH3/NH4+ it is a liquid test kit
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