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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 0:44:26 GMT -5
Generally a bacterial bloom is more an indicator than an actual problem, however these water borne aerobic bacteria do compete for oxygen, so it is definitely NOT desirable.
BTW, thanks for clarifying since I was going by memory from other threads.
I think your addition of the Prime was a good idea as I knew you were aware of the benefits of Prime.
The use of the Medicated Wonder Shells (which are not a strong treatment as I noted in the beginning of this thread) are generally a reasonably safe treatment in a tank of your age, and the Wonder Shell part of this treatment actually helps with clarity, so I doubt this was a cause (especially based on my own use in 100s of tanks). This is a good move in my opinion now that I note that this the tank you found the "moldy" fish in as an outbreak of Saprolegnia can be much worse than any side effects from the Medicated Wonder Shell
When it comes to treating a tank there is a time to treat and a time not to treat, and obviously there are pros and cons to each decision.
I will admit that now that you clarified your filtration, I am surprised that your ammonia level went up, however quite bluntly .25 ppm is very low and this kind of spike is not all that common NOR should it be one to get stressed over or for you (or others) to beat yourself up over. I will note that I have seen similar spikes in very established tank test I performed many years back (mostly testing HOB, sponge and Bio wheels), often these spikes from removing a filter (depending on the filter) recovered quickly, with the less effective bio wheel removals often being the quickest recovery since less bacteria were removed.
Carl
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Post by eve on Jan 12, 2009 0:46:50 GMT -5
I don't understand. With the big stand alone sponge filter, the bio grid in the HOB filter, the sponge prefilter sitting on the gravel and the gravel itself, why would the bacteria not have surface area to grow on? it does definitley have the surface however, it seems like it wants to grow more hmm, dont' know if that made sense now
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 0:49:38 GMT -5
I don't understand. With the big stand alone sponge filter, the bio grid in the HOB filter, the sponge prefilter sitting on the gravel and the gravel itself, why would the bacteria not have surface area to grow on? The surface area is already full, and if ammonia shows in the water, it would be in excess of what the current colony can process. You don't show ammonia in a mature tank, because the colony size is able to immediately oxidize any incomming ammonia instantly. If you are reading ammonia, that means it's in excess to what your colony can cope with, and will trigger the bloom. If your surface area is already full, it really doesn't have anywhere to go, so it stays suspended in the water, causing the cloud. Most clouds like that would dissapate in a few days, once it found a permanent home, so if you see a continual cloud, I'd have to say thats a good sign, your media is already at max capacity.
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Post by eve on Jan 12, 2009 0:50:59 GMT -5
ok, what i wonna add here to carl, is what i saw in my own experience
previously, about 2 years back, for 10 years i would always replace my complete filter cartridges with new ones
this always brought on cloudy tanks for sometimes up to 2 weeks it also brought on, a mini cycle, as the good bacteria had to grow on the new media all over again and always an ammonia spike, didn't have a nitrite tester at that time, so no clue about that
however, once i found out, i don't need to do that, i started just rinsing the filter media and i replace the carbon in the bags and cartridges even sponges i just rinse out
since then, all my tanks clear up in a matter of 24 hours of doing a water change no long time cloudiness no ammonia spike
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Post by kagome on Jan 12, 2009 0:51:21 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot, getting punchy cause it's late, I have not recently replaced the carbon filter in the HOB filter tank. Only rinsed with dechlorinated water and reused. Should I change it tomorrow?
edit: replaced carbon, just not actual cartridge, sorry, gonna go to bed now, really tired, will catch up tomorrow
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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 0:58:58 GMT -5
ok, what i wonna add here to carl, is what i saw in my own experience previously, about 2 years back, for 10 years i would always replace my complete filter cartridges with new ones this always brought on cloudy tanks for sometimes up to 2 weeks it also brought on, a mini cycle, as the good bacteria had to grow on the new media all over again and always an ammonia spike, didn't have a nitrite tester at that time, so no clue about that however, once i found out, i don't need to do that, i started just rinsing the filter media and i replace the carbon in the bags and cartridges even sponges i just rinse out This is essentially what my controlled tests confirmed, and I went further, essentially as I alluded to (and discuss in my Bio Wheel article in Aquarium Answers) is that the removal of any filter medium that is carrying any sort of bio load will result in a ammonia spike. The larger the bio load of the media in quation the larger and longer the spike will be before other bacteria take up the slack. This is part of the reason I do not care for bio wheels as the spike was small AND short lived indicating a small bio load. Kagome, you filtration is good, so please do not get overly concerned, this just confirmed that your small Pre Filter was doing more work than suspected, but your other filters WILL take up the slack. OH, & only rinse your cartridge Monday Carl
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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 1:14:51 GMT -5
actually, ima disagree here prime will give you a false reading on the ammonia test, i'm sure someone else will say something different on that subject Admittedly there is much controversy here, but IMO there should not be. Basically a A Nessler based kit such as API will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime since these cannot test between free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the NH4 ionized form is not toxic)). The SeaChemuses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia. Most Nessler based ammonia test kits will show similar results before and after Prime Treatment, but this is still useful than no test at all unless you have the before mentioned and more expensive ammonia test kits that can detect the ionized from non ionized ammonia. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 12, 2009 10:48:40 GMT -5
My test kit only shows total ammonia, I don't have one of the cool ones that distinguishes between free and total.
This morning only the big loach is breathing rapidly. He is still eating and acting normally. The smaller loaches and the pleco seem totally unaffected this morning. But I would think that the biggest loach probably has the highest oxygen requirements since he is more active than the pleco and larger than the other loaches. I am going to do the water change later and try and buy a net that I can catch this guy with. I think I'll get the smallest size pond net I can find so it will have a long enough handle and I will be able to corner him and he won't be able to swim around it.
The water is still a bit cloudy, but it has not gotten worse.
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Post by eve on Jan 12, 2009 10:52:52 GMT -5
as long as it doesn't get worse, it's a good sign
just wait it out and see what happens dont' over clean your tank due to the cloudiness though
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Post by jonv on Jan 12, 2009 10:58:02 GMT -5
I would feel that if the Loach is having problems breathing Kag, it can only benefit from a Meth Blue bath. Basically, Meth blue will negate or start to reverse the effects of nitrogen compounds, and if you can isolate him into a small container or bucket, dose the water in the container and let him sit in the meth blue for about 20-30 minutes, I think you'll find him breathing much easier later in the day. I'm assuming like probably everyone else, this is an effect from nitrogen compounds.
I just pulled a male adult Taiwan Reef from my 75 that went all to hell from not cleaning the gravel, an the ammonia went very high. His gills still show some blue in where the exposure to that was. The damage of course was pretty extensive, more so then what your Loach might be having, and I've meth blue bathed him like four times. He's not like he used to be right now, but he was on death's doorstep. The meth blue, without question has given him a chance due to it's ability to promote and assist oxygen absorbtion
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Post by kagome on Jan 12, 2009 11:00:00 GMT -5
I will just do a normal cleaning. Take out about 30% of the water because that's what it takes to get the gravel vacuumed. Hopefully my husband will be available to help, I don't seem to be able to stop throwing up this morning. I may not be back on for a while today, wish me luck.
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Post by Carl on Jan 12, 2009 11:07:49 GMT -5
I will just do a normal cleaning. Take out about 30% of the water because that's what it takes to get the gravel vacuumed. Hopefully my husband will be available to help, I don't seem to be able to stop throwing up this morning. I may not be back on for a while today, wish me luck. I wish you well Kagome! Do not stress over your cleaning too much, it does not need to be perfect, just doing the 30% change with the vacuum should be fine. Do not worry about every spot being vacuumed. As Jon just noted, if you can, try & perform the Medicated MB bath. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jan 13, 2009 0:25:09 GMT -5
The water looks much better now that I have done the cleaning; it was really rough going because I have felt just awful all day. I poked holes in the sponge prefilter with a pair of really skinny scissors and now there's enough flow coming out of the HOB. I found my big net in the storage room from when I had big SA cichlids. Ironically enough though, I cannot find my bottle of MB so I had to put in an order to Carl for some. Hopefully it will get here soon. Last time I did the priority shipping Carl shipped it on Saturday and it got here on Monday. Hopefully it will be that quick again and I can give him a bath when it gets here. He's still breathing rapidly.
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Post by eve on Jan 13, 2009 11:06:22 GMT -5
I'm glad your tank looks better and i hope he will make it until you can get the meds
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Post by kagome on Jan 14, 2009 15:42:05 GMT -5
OK, so I checked the ammonia in the tank today and the test showed it to be at 0. Yeah! The loach is still breathing rapidly, but not nearly as fast. I don't know if this is a good or bad sign. I want to feel hopeful that with the ammonia being down that he feels better. I guess I worry that he is breathing slower because he feels worse and is losing energy. He did eat this morning and was doing some loach dancing, so hopefully he feels OK. The other loaches still seem to be totally unaffected.
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