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Post by brandon429 on Jan 31, 2019 1:48:17 GMT -5
Brandon here saying hi, wanted to state why I’m a fan and some intro details about the tanks I keep and enjoy in tracing out the lifespan of *Rufus the pacu*, please let me know if he is alive or not as of 2019 and your best guess even if unsure, I come across Carl’s aquarium work in the restaurant where Rufus lived. Spent an hour reading up on the details there, the work involved in the fish care and science and making your own way before mass internet exchange was avail. Keeping all those fish disease free is a big deal, I’m thinking of all the logistics and innovation involved with immersing ones self in that many aquariums for that long. I read about Carl’s personal challenges and enduring them, I read about heinous reefcentral treatment which I too have endured, who hasn’t come visit reef2reef that’s a great place for sure. I read on about Carls offer to aquarium science online and understand intently how unreceptive forum types can be, those raised on link battling with peer reviewed studies manipulated into stating anything they want to state in pages long post battles which never acknowledge experience and pattern analysis only experience lends. a link doesn’t necessarily exist for that Albert Thiel was a good online friend of mine, I’m staring at a signed and personalized front page book excerpt by him as we speak / I’m wondering if Carl ever crossed paths with him/Dupla over the years as Albert himself endured challenging online scrutiny (and bore it well, with experience and skill) I was just curious if Albert was friendly back in the early days of the hobby, I suspect he would have been. Carl might be in a neat position to inform me about prior decades with my friend Albert long before I knew him. Curious about that potential My passion is pico reefs. Very old very long lived micro reef aquariums, not novelty tanks. Coral mass exporting micro reefs that outlive most larger tanks due to design characters I know exactly the derision and vile typing that must be endured to bring new ideas into the hobby as this is what it took to prove we can grow any strain of coral you want to grow in a fishbowl... talk about early skeptics. Look up Maritza the vase reef on Facebook, my friend’s reef bowl. see how well fishbowls have evolved ~ top shelf sps producers I lost a few forum accesses proving my science in forum work, hoping to seek out open minded and like minded friends to advance our hobby and link ideas. This site seems exactly like that, so I was stopping by to state I was a fan and to hopefully hear about speculations regarding Rufus and any reminiscing that can be done about my friend Albert T from Germany, Sincerely brandon429 by the way, I love UV and harness it frequently in doing consultative online reef tank restoration. We seemed to have many common interests and I was interested in knowing about Carl’s experiences
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Post by Carl on Jan 31, 2019 14:46:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words and shared experiences. reef2reef is definitely much better place than Reef Central As for Albert Thiel, I have never met him, but know well of him as he has been cited by many as I learned. Please feel free to share here on Everything aquatic, as well as to help educated others (myself included) Carl
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Post by brandon429 on Jan 31, 2019 14:58:22 GMT -5
hey do you know possibly if Rufus that giant pacu is still around, nice to meet you B
I know he changed hands, possibly went to a private collector but I wasn't sure if he was ever known about after the 2014 timeframe
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Post by Carl on Jan 31, 2019 14:58:44 GMT -5
As for "Rufus the pacu", when the restaurant closed, he was there for some time being taken care of by an employee before a home was found. I do not know where he was moved or even if he survived the move (as he was a very large fish that would not be easy to safely move)
Carl
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Post by Carl on Jan 31, 2019 14:59:35 GMT -5
Nice to meet you too. Carl
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Post by brandon429 on Jan 31, 2019 15:08:53 GMT -5
thanks tons for the follow up, I knew you'd have the best info on the matter, I spent hours last nite trying to find out simply because I found a fish that old and large in captivity fascinating. I even called Damons randomly and the lady answering said she thought it was with a private owner as well lol Ok I have a fun discussion and science topic, hard to find things you haven't seen in 40 years of aquariology Im aware ~ but I think I have one: have you ever seen an sps/lps reef tank that did not evaporate... used a fully sealed lid and accomplished all gas exchange interally (merely relocated the locus of exchange, it still occurs) -the lid wasn't permanently locked, of course it was raised for servicing, feeding and stocking but it sealed with weatherstripping and did not allow one iota of evaporation. I grew tabletop sps in it within 2 years, never shifted from .023. The lid was raised usually twice a month for servicings, and most feed was through a little corked hole I paid a glass cutter to drill into the lid. So it was accessible, but I used to leave it weeks at a time untended and it never left .023 ok lemme know, ever seen non evaporating reefs B
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Post by brandon429 on Jan 31, 2019 17:26:56 GMT -5
Meant to spell above: gas exchange internally
We use an internal refugium area under the sealed lid, a portion of the actual display, for plants to assist in co2 uptake--it doesn't have to be with the ambient air like the conventional method. The subdivided section has its own lighting, to run 24x7 as the display portion runs normal mode
We're driving a co2 absorber and o2 pump by just constantly lighting the plants or just counterlighting them to the display tank the systems aren't fish heavy / they're coral heavy + shrimps and crabs is balanced 02 command for sealed setups
Any of today's common algae turf scrubber box type setups, internal mount ones, will be the same pump setup in a sealed attempt as handy arrangement of available items. The plants handle the gas exchange if fish loading is considered. The actual reef and coral mass is fairly balanced overall for oxygen demand in a 24 hour period, in a sealed system its close to being self-regulating but a little boost from a brightly lit ATS system will put it in + oxygen mode, strong redox as I read it in your article. We judge this actually not by testing but by observing what benthic creatures like snails and micro brittle stars do; if they keep their niches there is no oxygen deficit, and if they migrate to the top there is/ pretty handy for tuning. what the tiny creatures do is the meter of balance along with coral health. We have accounted for system organic stores in the rest of the tank and we keep up with water changes.
we keep the sandbeds clean, exported. Lower BOD lower bacterial loading better for small systems, though this method can be upscaled into full size setups now since today's lighting doesn't run so hot, we used to have to fan our sealed systems to cool them
LED and better circulation options make for interesting work still ahead for sealed reef tank systems. Non evaporative systems, but still accessible for work etc. changes are still coming to the hobby in terms of rule bending, I think one day the method will become more popular. We should build a test version here.
I'm trying to see how to post pics... is there a way I can load a couple pics of the setup
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Post by Carl on Feb 1, 2019 10:16:53 GMT -5
This is very interesting and no I have not observed a totally sealed system as you described. Removal of CO2 was the first thing that came to mind as I started to read through your post, but it appears this is covered by the refugium & co2 absorber.
I found this point a simple but great idea since creatures that live in benthic zones would not normally leave this zone in a healthy environement:
Carl
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Post by Carl on Feb 1, 2019 10:20:35 GMT -5
As for pictures, you can either host a picture then use the "insert image" tool above or use the "Add attachment" button (also above the reply box) to add a picture or other file (although this many go away as AAP is being forced to cut back expenses due to non existent sales and this is something we pay extra for)
Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 1, 2019 13:34:54 GMT -5
Very neat.
I've seen these vases and they are very creative. Impressive, because you get a very packed coral colony very close together.
I've seen a closed planted system that someone had for like 20 years, It was just a large corked container. Great plant growth. Very low maintenance. I'm not sure how it maintained co2/o2 levels. Would be interesting to see with a reef.
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Post by brandon429 on Feb 1, 2019 21:54:03 GMT -5
Devon thanks for responding as well nice to meet you I’m Brandon I began searching to see if any old threads happened to have pics of the sealed systems and I found one that does, handy since they’re all in one thread to see. Was going to link to r2r to show pics then discuss here some of the neat aspects of those micro tanks www.reef2reef.com/threads/pictures-of-first-pico-reefs-post-any-older-if-known-found.223754/Glad you would mention the chemical warring, there’s an odd habituation switch that occurs and it’s amazing. They never accounted for the method that I could find in library books before people eventually just tried squeezing more and more coral into small volumes, I knew serious rule breaking was going down when clavularia agreed to live in half a gallon with a brain coral and sixteen other varieties lol it’s such a strange mechanism / still don’t know the hows but somehow little tiny frags that mature together somehow get along but they’re def not immune to mesenterial battle. That hydno Killed a couple frags with sweepers and I cut it out. Invisible cuts/ earlets of polycarbonate plastic which are clear underwater are positioned in there to prevent touching, it’s just hard to see them. I wanted to make the reef equivalent of a ship in a bottle. Tweezers and super glue and time positioned that wall stack of frags then they grew into place. The vases are evaporation restricted but not sealed. They’re airstone driven, excellent co2 drivers given good safe ambient levels, so the positive pressure has to vent out under the lid. An inner diameter fitting lid, however, ends all salt creep and sets the pace for once weekly top off using no ato gear at all. We evap restrict the vases down to weekly or bi weekly topoff using distilled water, by adjusting airflow rates in. the little square reefs were the sealed ones, those show early designs for rebreather reef tanks
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Post by brandon429 on Feb 1, 2019 22:21:44 GMT -5
Hey on that guys sealed planted tank I’m so jealous mine would’ve gone chlorotic without boosters
I’m jealous of his consistent magnesium and iron turnover heh
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2019 10:56:46 GMT -5
Hey on that guys sealed planted tank I’m so jealous mine would’ve gone chlorotic without boosters I’m jealous of his consistent magnesium and iron turnover heh My experience has been that there needs to be at least some outside input to a closed system, which technically even an aquarium that is not sealed is compared to nature. Although as per iron to prevent plants from going chlorotic, I have generally found that iron rich substrates can go a long ways in providing enough iron without outside input. I've even experimented with "rusty nails" as per another's tip many years ago ad found this to work for plant yellowing. Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 2, 2019 14:33:50 GMT -5
I was going to say the substrate too. I don't believe this person ever had to trim back plants in 20 years. Just VERY slow growth, which nutrient rich substrate would easily handle.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 2, 2019 14:35:40 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2019 17:00:40 GMT -5
You've been at these "pico reefs" fro some time based on the date stamps. I amazed at healthy these are for being so small. I have to admit I have never ventured much smaller than 10 gallons as I found more issues the smaller the tank, but you seem to have proven otherwise. What did you do for chemistry maintenance in these tiny reef tanks? Carl
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Post by brandon429 on Feb 2, 2019 18:41:34 GMT -5
salinity/evap was the main excluder from going smaller, so once we got that under control with a lucky arrangement of lids the chemistry was absolutely nothing fancy beyond weekly or bi weekly water changes making it copyable by anyone with a salinity measuring device (I’m on swingarm I don’t need refract) and a preset tank heater, ultra bare bones. We don’t use reef test kits on these, as nobody’s salt mix adds up to lethal params, all variances work, no metabolite overloads exist with weekly or bi weekly changes because these aren’t fish-heavy systems, they’re coral-dense systems. Gem boxes ha. we want to show this science can be repeated by anyone if the physical steps are followed, the chemistry part works itself out just shy of salinity and temp which we must control. We didn’t get yellowing of water even without skimming, because we eject detritus from the rocks and sand occasionally, usually just by pouring water back in the tank this alone is powerful storm upwelling action in a pico. *one key facet of care is we don’t feed daily / accumulation mode / it’s right before the water change, whenever that is. Look how much feed is input, 10x more than needed so every polyp eats fully, they don’t have to eat daily. Interim support are the micro benthic creatures food web...and the quality live rock we try and use for quick maturation in the system in terms of micro feed diversity corals can use This is how we avoid starving the large colonies of coral that command feed, yet never pollute the tank with accumulation. Feeding is done during CPR water change time, a paired event. youtu.be/xbhzdKSzPswMaritza my friend even demonstrated well that simple instant ocean brand water is fine, even for the finest sps they show, so the back and forth about required salt mix brand / mix level doesn’t apply. Use whatever brand is handy. The vases are the easiest and most stable way to control salinity since any inside-diameter fitting lid like is shown in the pics will nearly -stop- dangerous fw loss and it works in every case...very reliable. From wal mart parts that’s a vase and a planter dish from the garden center The system isn’t stagnant because it’s airstone driven, very nice redox readings I must surmise from the physicality we can see, smell and detail observe when handling the tanks and watching them over the years. We simply arrange the heater, pump and lid and vase, put clean rinsed caribsea sand in it so there’s no initial clouding, input the highest quality live rock out of someone else’s aged reef tank ideally (skip cycle rock transfer) and input some corals and begin changing all the water weekly, or bi weekly, 100% change. They all adapt fine and so do all common shrimp and crabs we may want. That little bubbling noise heard in the video is the noise a reefbowl makes, chugging along decade after decade. Frag corals, glue them on little magnets and trade them out over time, these produce coral mass v consume it. Designed for export and longevity repeating basic arrangements and care steps. i shine a kessil a 160 e on mine, but here’s a 25 $ light that blows it away in terms of spectrum and color. I preferred the kessil cuz it’s a nice tight look, but the abi tuna is cheap, lasts, and grows any coral you want, no need to experiment with various lights. Doesn’t overheat small setups www.amazon.com/ABI-Coral-Optimized-Spectrum-PAR38/dp/B01LWP37SD/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1549151284&sr=8-3&keywords=abi+tuna+blueyou could buy a $350 Jason fox sps coral frag and it would grow under that light. Not having to go through different approaches to find the right light saves so much time...that one is guaranteed ideal and quite cheap.
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Post by Carl on Feb 4, 2019 14:40:18 GMT -5
Interesting! The idea of feeding just before cleaning makes sense. With the larger aquariums I have mostly maintained, constant water changes and the amount needed was both time and cost prohibitive. As for the PAR Lights, we dealt with these for some time, but while the light output was good for the price, the quality control was terrible and in the end I did not feel confident selling these to my clients. The Kessils are definitely better as per quality, but there have been SOME issues here too from others we deal with Honestly I am not a fan of dealing with anything via Amazon unless this is the only choice as they are literally destroying our industry to the point many are disappearing and if this year does not change, we will be the next causality. Reference: www.fish-as-pets.com/2018/03/buying-aquarium-products-via-amazon.htmlCarl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 5, 2019 14:13:57 GMT -5
Pretty genius actually.
I've fallen into the trap of making everything over complicated, which just leads to crashing the tank
I bet you could get away with adding fish into these smaller systems also too, just feeding once a week and then doing the water change after. I've keep a handful of systems where the fish do fine feeding once a week.
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Post by brandon429 on Feb 5, 2019 21:16:24 GMT -5
Thank you guys very much for posting, let me tell you why I didn't lead above with a fish in my half gallon pico pic, which ive now edited into the last entry on that r2r thread above would you take one more look ~ your observation was keen so I had to come clean heh 1. the world might explode and it still will. the tang police are real, they hunt for violators. Hope to not bring the heat on your site, consider this an exceptional experiment but you saw it as well and called it... these systems have untapped support potential, I had to show my iteration of that. we are thinking of the same possibilities. In all the reefbowls Ive coached online / not recommended fish, so its well known Im not turning out fill kill boxes. but darn it, doesn't science advance between the lines? where finding a way drives us forward against a gradient of something? even if for a brief observation 2. a half gallon sps already breaks nine rules of status quo reefing even though it works fine lol, so adding a fish that I feel is environmentally matched to the system and well fed, factored in as bioload, as feed command, seemed ok just this once in the early 2000's/ my current systems are fish free not because it wont work, but because I love to leave them bubbling for days on end without care while I travel- and a dead fish will cycle my whole tank out... Im not home enough to guide another fish-in experiment. That was was ran for a while then went to coral only. these systems 100% will support fish and the new trimma gobies we can get, sorry to admit what Im thinking in 2019
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