Fish Food

[Carl]

Thank you for your kind words and suggestions!

I too am ALWAYS trying to learn, and this includes from newbies to the hobby as well.
The problem is many persons often refuse to learn anything more once they reach a certain knowledge level, I find this especially problematic in the aspect of UV Sterilization, Aquarium Chemistry, and Aquarium Lighting.
As well, since Google Search now brings up so many spammy, cut & paste website with old anecdotal information, it is difficult to learn even for those willing unless they think past Google and use a different search engine such as DuckDuckGo

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

I also hope you and yours have a blessed Thanksgiving as well!

Carl

[clayn]

Hi Carl,

I would like to get your opinion on excess phosphorus. I go the extra mile to produce a superior product. I sieve the whole menhaden fish meal which removes 5.6% of the meal (see pic below). Of the 5.6% I am going to assume 5% is minerals. If my calculations are close this means 11% of the minerals not used by the fish is Phosphorus. I understand that the excess calcium etc. are a benefit. However the excess Phosphorus concerns me because of the potential to grow algae in a fish only tank. I understand that tanks with fish have nitrates however I don't like the idea of adding more "food" to promote algae growth.

If this is my only concern I think that overall I have done my due diligence in producing a quality product.

I can't get the photo to work. If you want to see it send me an email at [e-mail] andI will send it to you. FYI it appears to be cartilage, bones and scales.

Clay

[Carl]

Since you use whole menhaden fish meal, I doubt phosphorous is a serious issue, especially when you compare it to many popular but junk brands such as Tetra which use fish meals that are simply the left overs from human food production.

This is why I personally believe that one of the biggest differences between a "good" food and a "poor" food is the use of whole fish meal versus just fish meal.
In fact in my experiments many years back the tanks that were fed fish food that were fish meal leftovers such as TetraMin had a higher incidence of algae and tended to be more yellow/green in water color.

When "leftovers" are used, you get a product that is not balanced and is mostly bone, cartilage, and other parts that are going to be higher in phosphorus.

You can send me a picture to my email in my profile (I do not like publishing emails in the open forum) showing the seive

Carl

[clayn]

Check your mail. And that came out of whole menhaden meal.

I agree with you on the use of whole fish meal.

My pet peeves:
1) Carbohydrate ingredient splitting
2) Ingredient percentages protein etc. not adding up to 100

[devonjohnsgard]

This is a great conversation to follow! Thanks for shedding your fishy wisdom

[clayn]

Nov 29, 2013 15:47:13 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

This is a great conversation to follow! Thanks for shedding your fishy wisdom

I am glad that you are enjoying it!

To make it clear Carl is the Pro and I am the protege.

Clay

[clayn]

Nov 29, 2013 15:47:13 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

This is a great conversation to follow! Thanks for shedding your fishy wisdom

After looking at the food that I am making I am curious in regards to your thoughts on it.

[clayn]

I love this board. On any other message board that I am aware of this conversation would have digressed to the point of being useless. Individuals with an interest don't care much for honest conversation when its not in their best interest. I don't make a lot of money making fish food. I do it because I love the hobby and the people that try it like what it does for their fish. I don't think of my customers as a number as I consider them friends. We have lost the human connection with the amazon's and wal-marts of the world. I am doing/ my best to bring back customer service for fish food in thIs country. If you want to call me and talk about fish food or fish my number is at the top of the page on the main page of my website. www.premiumgreen.net

[Carl]

Clay, you sent me two pictures.

Here is one that appears more coarse, is this the first sieve?




This one is more fine



Carl

[clayn]

Yes the top pic is the matter sieved out and the bottom pic is the meal after sieving.

Before starting this process I would never have guessed that result.

[clayn]

My wife works for a large pet food manufacturer. That's where I got my first ingredients to play around with. They have to test every truckload or rail car's ingredients to make sure they meet specifications. Once they take the sample they hold the 1/2 lb or so sample for a month. At that point they throw them away. I can get her to ask for them and then do the sieve test on them. They get salmon meal, tuna meal and fish meal. I am interested in seeing what is left in the sieve with those.

[Carl]

Nov 30, 2013 14:54:43 GMT -5 clayn said:

They get salmon meal, tuna meal and fish meal. I am interested in seeing what is left in the sieve with those.

That would be interesting!

Which manufacturer does she work for (if you can say)?

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

After looking at the food that I am making I am curious in regards to your thoughts on it.

Well I'm no fish food expert, but I understand the importance in a quality food. In both humans and fish alike. I think nutrition is missed when a fish keeper gets a cheap, massed produced food. Who really knows what goes into these products and how it improves health. I think if I'm going to put good food into my body, my pets deserve the same.
You seem to know what goes into a food to make it quality, so I like the fact you have a food that's well researched, a great quality, and handcrafted.

[clayn]

Dec 1, 2013 19:05:28 GMT -5 Carl said:

Nov 30, 2013 14:54:43 GMT -5 clayn said:

They get salmon meal, tuna meal and fish meal. I am interested in seeing what is left in the sieve with those.

That would be interesting!

Which manufacturer does she work for (if you can say)?

Carl

My wife works for DelMonte/Meow Mix. I just spoke with my wife and she is going to try to get fish meal, salmon meal, tuna meal and seafood medley samples to sieve. The guy she was getting the samples from retired recently. They have a new guy so we will have to see how it goes.

Clay

[clayn]

Dec 5, 2013 14:10:06 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

After looking at the food that I am making I am curious in regards to your thoughts on it.

Well I'm no fish food expert, but I understand the importance in a quality food. In both humans and fish alike. I think nutrition is missed when a fish keeper gets a cheap, massed produced food. Who really knows what goes into these products and how it improves health. I think if I'm going to put good food into my body, my pets deserve the same.
You seem to know what goes into a food to make it quality, so I like the fact you have a food that's well researched, a great quality, and handcrafted.

Thank You! I am always interested in hearing opinions after you have taken a look at what I am doing. I like to educate (not brainwash) people on fish nutrition so they can make an informed decision. If they want to buy my food thats fine and if they want to buy another food that is fine also.

[clayn]

I am waiting for the new guy to go through the regulations. I told my wife that if the regulations say it is to be discarded after x number of days to ask if she can be informed when it is discarded to go and retrieve it.

[clayn]

Hi Carl,

A few significant things have happened since I last posted. After studying this study ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00003586/00001/1j extensively I extrapolated what I believe to be the "total energy" number range to prevent fatty liver condition. I do not count protein as energy as it is primarily used to replenish and or build tissue. I calculate energy using a 2.25 multiplier for fat and a 1 to 1 rate for starch and sugar. The target energy number is 24 to 25 which if my calculations are correct will keep less than 9% of the fish's liver covered in fat. As you said here www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html fish don't store starch well so it needs to be limited. As you can imagine it is not easy to cut the numbers back to get within that narrow range. I had to cut back on the whole menhaden some because of the fat content. Its a very delicate balancing act. The energy number needs to be tested but I believe the calculations are close. Here is the latest and final diets:


Carnivore
49.4% Protein, 5.4% Fat, 15.6% Minerals/Ash, Starch 10.1%, Fiber 12.5%, Sugar 2.5% and Moisture 4.5%. 24.7 Energy
Ingredients (Listed first to last by dry weight): Shrimp Meal, Green Pea Flour, Whole Menhaden Fish Meal, Egg Whites, Human Grade Spirulina Powder, Astaxanthin, Paprika and Cayenne Pepper.

Omnivore
42.9% Protein, 4% Fat, 17.5% Minerals/Ash, Starch 12.8%, Fiber 15.4%, Sugar 3.1% and Moisture 4.3%. 24.9 Energy
Ingredients (Listed first to last by dry weight): Shrimp Meal, Green Pea Flour, Human Grade Spirulina Powder, Egg Whites, Whole Menhaden Fish Meal, Astaxanthin, Paprika and Cayenne Pepper.

Herbivore
43.9% Protein, 3.2.% Fat, 15.3% Minerals/Ash, Starch 14.1%, Fiber 15.4%, Sugar 3.7% and Moisture 4.4%. 25 Energy
Ingredients (Listed first to last by dry weight): Green Pea Flour, Shrimp Meal, Human Grade Spirulina Powder, Egg Whites, Astaxanthin, Whole Menhaden Fish Meal, Paprika and Cayenne Pepper.

Grow
48.7% Protein, 16.3% Fat, 12% Minerals/Ash, Starch 7.5%, Fiber 9.2%, Sugar 1.8% and Moisture 4.5%. 46 Energy
Ingredients (Listed first to last by dry weight): Shrimp Meal, Green Pea Flour, Whole Menhaden Fish Meal, Egg Whites, Human Grade Spirulina Powder, Astaxanthin, Paprika and Cayenne Pepper.
The idea with Grow is to grow them to juveniles in 8 weeks. At this point they have significant fatty deposits on their liver. Fortunately when switched to a normal diet they use up the stored energy growing.

I would appreciate your opinion on the new diets and the use of more shrimp meal. The use of more shrimp meal was used to cut the level of fat in the food. How close is the digestible protein in shrimp compared to whole fish meal? I have looked but can't find anything useful.

Thanks,
Clay

[clayn]

After more digging I found that shrimp meal ranged from 84% - 89% digestible protein versus 93% digestible protein in the whole menhaden meal that I use. It appears that shrimp meal is comparable to spirulina and as you stated inferior to whole fish meal. As I said earlier the Herbivore food in particular has limited whole fish meal to limit fat content. I tried trading shrimp for green pea flour and that didn't work well as it raised the starch level too high. I am more comfortable knowing that shrimp meal is in the same range as spirulina as its amino acid profile and digestible protein level is very good.

shrimpmeal.wordpress.com/2012/08/02/shrimp-waste/

[devonjohnsgard]

Jun 19, 2014 20:38:55 GMT -5 clayn said:

I would appreciate your opinion on the new diets and the use of more shrimp meal. The use of more shrimp meal was used to cut the level of fat in the food. How close is the digestible protein in shrimp compared to whole fish meal? I have looked but can't find anything useful.

Thanks,
Clay

Hey Clay, just so you know, Carl is out of town until the beginning of next week. I'm sure he'll have some insight about the shrimp compared to fish meal. I wish I could help more, but much of what you are talking about I'm just not sure about.

I wonder if Carl would be interested in carrying your line to have another healthy alternative for his customers?

I like the new picture btw

[clayn]

Thanks Devon for the heads up!

We discussed that previously. It is certainly open for discussion.

Thanks! I like yours as well!

I feel like a school kid who is about to have his final graded by the teacher.