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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 11:36:26 GMT -5
Jon, I'd say that the Zebras and the Fulus would be fine together in that size of a tank. I'd think in a smaller tank there might be problems, but 100 gallons is a nice size for them to stake out their own territories. Plenty of rockwork would be essential, as my Fulus are utilizing what I have added. The Zebras also seem to enjoy the rocks, but they tend to be out more.
As long as you are watching your tanks, I would think that those two species would do well together. I'd hesitate in adding a third Vic species, unless it was something that was very obviously different. Neochromis Omnicaeruleus has done well with my Zebras, I've added some milder mbuna species to other Victorian tanks as dithers. P. Chromogynos is a more calm fish, and may not do well with the Obliquidens, or with the Fulus.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 11:41:27 GMT -5
Barbara, if you get any juvenile Omnicaeruleus, could I buy some from you and try them out? I'm going to have to rehouse the Mbuna I feel, out of the 180 gallon tank. I don't want a substrate type like those, around the substrate spawning types like the Polleni and the Oligocanthus. I think this would invite too high of a stressful enviroment, not to mention, the mouth on that male Oligocanthus, could probably rival a nice juvenile sized Oscar. No sense to tempt the guy to munch on some smaller Mbuna. So my idea was to home the Mbuna over in the 75, use the 100 as Vic tank, move the Polleni and Oligo's to the 180 since they get big and would need the space, and allow the Haps and Peacocks to stay with them in the 180.
If you feel Mbuna will be ok with Vics, this actually makes things a bit easier. I'll probably keep the Yellow Labs with them then, but move the Kenyi and Flavus to the 75. This is very helpful Barbara, thank you. If you think and don't mind, I'd like to try to mix a small group of Omnicaeruleus with the Vics in the 100.
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 11:46:46 GMT -5
I'd be glad to share some Neochromis with you, once I get the spawning situation under control. I am probably going to have more adults than I know what to do with here shortly, and I'll see what I can do.
I think milder mbuna such as Yellow labs would be great in a Victorian tank. I use Yellow labs and Rusties in with my Chromogynos, and yellow lab fry as dithers with my Kenya golds. As long as you aren't picking species that are very aggressive, this should be a solid mix. I wouldn't use the Kenyi in there, unless you have aggressive Victorians, but milder types should work great.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 12:11:41 GMT -5
Good deal then! I'm just waiting for my 75 to stabilize now and then the Mbuna short of the Yellows are going there. Then I'll wait to see how this egg nest plays out. If it fails, then I'll be moving the Madagascars over to the 180, so say by the end of the month or so, I'll have the fish where I want them, and I'll just wait for you to signal when you're ready Barbara. So the Vic tank would have the Zebra's, the Fulu's, and the Neochromis's, with the Yellows.
Btw, what's your thoughts on bottom feeders? I've been keeping cories of different species, Clown Loaches, Tiger, Red tailed Blue, and Polka dot botia's in with my species, and it's been working pretty good, for a Malawi setting. Would any of these be a problem with Vics?
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Post by brenda on Jan 10, 2009 12:13:44 GMT -5
I agree Fulu and zebra's will be fine...You could also try some of the P. Rock kribs if you really wanted more. The males are different as are the females...they actually get color and I believe they are a little more aggressive then my Chromogynos. Just trying to throw ideas out there...
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Post by Carl on Jan 10, 2009 12:16:14 GMT -5
Jon, my section on Natural Redox explains how this is replenished in nature. I include a quote from a Japanese scientist as well as to the importance of certain aspects of Redox. What is important is that there are many factors that affect both oxidation and reduction and all are important and scientifically demonstrated to do just that, yet I just read an article by someone we both know from YA that appears in the Aquarium Wiki that is so out of date and scientifically un-sound I wanted run my head through the wall (figuratively that is). this is why no one should ever trust any information that is found in these aquarium wikis, no scientific research is used and all that is quoted is anecdotal outdated journals. Carl
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Post by brenda on Jan 10, 2009 12:17:41 GMT -5
Jon, my section on Natural Redox explains how this is replenished in nature. I include a quote from a Japanese scientist as well as to the importance of certain aspects of Redox. What is important is that there are many factors that affect both oxidation and reduction and all are important and scientifically demonstrated to do just that, yet I just read an article by someone we both know from YA that appears in the Aquarium Wiki that is so out of date and scientifically un-sound I wanted run my head through the wall (figuratively that is). this is why no one should ever trust any information that is found in these aquarium wikis, no scientific research is used and all that is quoted is anecdotal outdated journals. Carl That's because you're awesome Carl!!!!
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 12:22:32 GMT -5
Oh I agree on that, in fact, almost any legit University will not accept any documentation from Wiki on any research papers written either. I failed to see that part because I got guilty of not reading through the whole thing Carl, sorry. But I'm still wondering, has anyone in the research field that you know of, started looking at the impact of like Acid Rain, CO2 levels and all the other crap that we've been putting up in the atmosphere, and then comes down into the tributary waters that feed the lakes and rivers, and the impact of that on the natural Redox?
I know that Lake Chad, as Gore demonstrated in his movie and book has all but dried up due to the climate change, but we keep cranking out all sorts of chemicals out there. I do hope someone's out there looking at the impact of that on the natural water chemistry. If anyone knows if this is being examined, you would Carl.
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Post by Carl on Jan 10, 2009 15:02:30 GMT -5
Oh I agree on that, in fact, almost any legit University will not accept any documentation from Wiki on any research papers written either. I failed to see that part because I got guilty of not reading through the whole thing Carl, sorry. But I'm still wondering, has anyone in the research field that you know of, started looking at the impact of like Acid Rain, CO2 levels and all the other crap that we've been putting up in the atmosphere, and then comes down into the tributary waters that feed the lakes and rivers, and the impact of that on the natural Redox? I know that Lake Chad, as Gore demonstrated in his movie and book has all but dried up due to the climate change, but we keep cranking out all sorts of chemicals out there. I do hope someone's out there looking at the impact of that on the natural water chemistry. If anyone knows if this is being examined, you would Carl. Actually I do not claim to have all the answers, in fact Redox is an area where I have had to change my hypothesis more times than about anything else when new facts arose. I am currently working on another update to add more clarity to this subject, but I still will admit that although there are many facts about Redox, how these facts apply themselves are often theories still. Since you mentioned Gore (& I hope I am not being to to harsh on others views here), I find this man's theories and so-called facts to be the worse kind of science there is. He makes hypothesis, then finds anecdotal evidence to fit his theories and then acts as though they are facts. Lake Chad has certainly gone down due to man, but man's intervention is primarily due to diversion of water (similar to Mono Lake in California, which is now increasing since these waters are no longer being diverted). The effect on Climate Change on this lake can be demonstrated by ebbs and flows in normal climate cycles over the centuries, long before man had any possible impact. See this article: Climate change and diminishing desert resourcesCarl
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 19:42:44 GMT -5
Interesting and eventful day. My husband Walt got home and we were looking at the Kyoga flamebacks. I swear they are all males, he is unsure. One was missing. He was wedged into the rock work, obviously the victim of an attack. We moved him quickly to my husand's 125 hap tank, where nothing is aggressive. He's got one cloudy eye, and has been fin nipped rather badly. We are unsure if he will live, but he seems to be doing better in that tank.
We moved the holding Mbipia cf. Lutea. Before I could get her out of the bag, she spit her fry. I counted at least 7, and she's between 1 and 1.25 inches! She's tiny to have so many. She tried to gather them back up, but they are quick! This was a fairly short hold as well, maybe 2 weeks, and I have free swimming fry.
I feed the tiny fry Hikari's First Bites and powdered Cyclop-eeze until they are ready to move on to crushed flake. I plan on moving this mom, she is a first time mother, in a day to two to a tank with some growing out Lutea. She isn't much bigger than they are, and I'm hoping to add them all to the main tank at the same time, in a week or so.
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 19:46:12 GMT -5
On the bottom feeder issue, I'd have a hard time saying what is good. I tried bristlenose, and with some species they just seem to get beat up. I'd say some type of Synodontis would be good, but I'm no expert on that. I have some growng out lucipinnis right now, and am getting a few more, but those are going to be for fry tanks. I don't have any advice for that...I'm still trying to figure out what works in some of these tanks myself.
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 19:48:27 GMT -5
Jon, another species you may consider researching is the Mbipia cf. Lutea. Interesting fish, and the females have distinctive markings. Rather aggressive, like the Neochromis Omnicaeruleus, but in the right numbers this aggression can be managed.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 20:01:42 GMT -5
I did see this one time and one time only offered on aquabid, but I got too fascinated with the Fulu I forgot to read it over, but I remember seeing that name. It looks like a difficult species to find. I know there are more then a few Sp. 44 Auctions out there too. I'll definetly keep Mbipia in mind comming from you.
You know, I haven't seen any of my groups go so far to get wedged into something running or hiding. John (Murdock) had that happen with his Rams though, which is a little odd. The weirdest thing I ever seen was I ended up scoring a full grown Nimbochromis Polystigma someone dropped off in the local store, got him home, and the Venstus were "playing" around with him, the next morning, I turned the lights on in the tank, the Polystigma jumped up, smacked himself on the hood, and bang, flat dead like a stone right to the bottom of the tank. That's the most unusual thing I think I've seen in my guys.
I was just thinking an hour or so ago, you know, it just dawned on me. One way you'd know how many fry you're getting is from stripping. I was pondering, how could you possibly know you were getting fry loss with the mom in there. Of course, if you stripped her, then you'd know the starting point LOL. My female just let her latest brood go. These guys go hiding into the plants so fast, and her last three spawns were all in the 35 range, I usually don't try to count because they never hold still enough to count. Maybe I just suck at it LOL.
I will keep your points all in mind though Barbara. You never can know enough things when it comes to Africans, and probably cichlid keeping in general. Maybe I'll just leave those Zebras with the Mbuna all togeather since they are a pretty rough species as it is and they seem to be just fine with Flavus, Labs, EB Fryeri, Kenyi's, and a few Ps. Elongatus. Right now, my two male EB Fryeri's are beating the hell out of each other over the female.
I will confess one thing. I am guilty of not always keeping the right ratio's, mostly because I can't get my stock that I have locally. They just don't have enough cichlid stores. 95% of my stock, I got off eBay or aquabid and I don't have the money to buy and ask for females only. I balanced this as being ok since they were in 180 gallons of space in the main tank. I should mention for you Barb, I have an active 180, 100, 75, and the 15 which is my holding tank. I have an empty 20, and a 2.5 Betta tank I'm not currently using.
So just to make sure, the plan is going to be, by maybe Spring/Summer time, 180 will be the Madagascars and the Bythobate Tilapia's, the Haps and Peacocks, and the Malaysian Golden Jardini. The 100 will be as close as I can get a Victorian tank, with the milder Yellows in there. The 75, a juvenile grow out tank, and mostly Mbuna. And keep the 15 as hospital/maternity. I have one of those wives that's like, "another tank???" And I don't want the place to look like a fish store. That's why I've been thinking to clone myself as Brenda's husband so I wouldn't have to hear things like that LOL.
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Post by brenda on Jan 10, 2009 20:30:09 GMT -5
Jon...I think that is an excellent idea...My husband says the same things.
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 20:36:53 GMT -5
Jon you are not shopping at the right places. I don't know if it is OK to advertise outside of sponsors, so I won't add links. But, I have the best cichlid place going...at least in my opinion. I will be glad to share, if someone can let me know the rules on this.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 20:46:29 GMT -5
As far as I know of Barbara, I don't think there's any conflict of interest if you mention where you buy from. I've linked in aquabid auctions and eBay auctions to get opinions on what was offered. If this is some sort of problem, I'll take the blame for that, and we could always just delete the post. Brenda's linked up places she's got fish from as well before.
I do see now, from July 07 when I first started ordering and bringing in my African Malawi's that I didn't realize just how common and ordinary the stock I got were. I fell for that oh that looks nice and has a nice price tag on it bug. I advised Brenda to go with the Red Empress after having found that species too late, when I already had Taiwan Reefs. Nothing wrong with TR's. A very very mild and peaceful Hap in my opinion, but if I could have picked again, I'd definetly go with an Empress instead. I'm just of the mind set that ok I got these guys, might as well care for them. Maybe try to sell what I can to make room, but I don't expect much for them since you can get my species from most any Tom Dick and Harry.
I'd be very happy to hear where you feel is a good place to look. I'm assuming there's a pretty hefty price tag though on most of the ones you'd suggest?
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 21:12:03 GMT -5
www.davesfish.com/I think it would depend on what you consider a hefty price tag. I find quality and service to be as important as price when buying live animals. I think the shipping will be the hard part for you, but I think Dave has reasonable prices and the best selection I've seen. He's also easy to work with, and is very knowledgable about the species he keeps. He will be able to advise you of mixes better than I can. I know Brenda shops with him as well, and he's local to me, so I can go there and see the stock.
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Post by brenda on Jan 10, 2009 21:22:34 GMT -5
This is where I have also gotten my last 2 batches of fish...Dave is awesome, and I don't think his prices are that bad, I think they are pretty fair, especially when you know you are getting good stock. I will be receiving a shipment from him on Tuesday.
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Post by eve on Jan 10, 2009 23:33:24 GMT -5
i actually think it's a good idea
maybe we can even start a board on that where we all buy with different sellers and give our experience with them
i think it would be a great addition to the board
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 0:30:38 GMT -5
Looks pretty good. Brenda posted this guy before I think, maybe in private, not sure. I think I actually emailed Dave and asked him if he'd like me to supply him with the Protomelas Steveni's Albino, since there seems to be some increased interest in this. He indicated the volume he'd want, I probably am not going to be able to deliver. Probably a good thing too. The last two times the female spawned, for some reason or another, she just ditched the brood when I isolated her. I did get 63 from her on her only and first spawn though. And this is a female that was a spawn of my own, in Dec 07, now adult and spawning with a male from a different group.
I'll be checking on Dave though from time to time, to see if he ever gets in Paratrolopus Menarambo's. That's actually the Madagascar I've been wanting for a long long time. It looks very much like a SW Tang actually, and the listings here locally, they guy wants like 125 per adult. I will settle for fry or juveniles believe me. I'm going on 9 months now with the Polleni and Bythobates, 2.5 months on the Oligocanthus.
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