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Post by babygeige on Jan 8, 2009 19:34:45 GMT -5
Wow, very impressive! Thanks for taking the time to post all that!
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2009 21:19:20 GMT -5
Thanks for alll the kind words about my tanks. Brenda asked if I would come post some pictures here, and told me I'd enjoy this forum. She's right, I do. She also complained that I didn't post the pictures of the Angels that she really likes. She told me she's not a big fan, but she likes mine...I'll get her converted yet! Glad you all enjoyed the pictures. I love to show off my tanks, and will be taking more pictures soon...I usually do them at least once a week.
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2009 21:22:16 GMT -5
WOW !!!! that's amazing, so many tanks lol, and my hubby says 5 is a lot, lol very nice setups thanks for sharing Believe it or not, my husband is trying to figure out how to put more tanks in our house. We've got a decent sized house, but we're running out of wall space for larger tanks. He is talking about building double stands...he's as bad as I am!!
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Post by brenda on Jan 8, 2009 21:27:16 GMT -5
That's a good thing though..YOu do have beautiful angels though. Carl has a really retty one as well, I think it is under his pics somewhere on this site.
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Post by jonv on Jan 8, 2009 21:35:33 GMT -5
I can't tell you how pleasing it is to have another cichlid keeper here and one that is fluent in the latin/scientific names to boot!! I should be getting the Christmas Fulu sometime next week. For the time being, as I really don't want to put them in my Malawi tank, I'm going to put them in my 100 gallon, which has 2 Madagascar species, (Pytchochromis Oligacanthus, and Paratilapia Polleni) and one Mozambique (Tilapia Bythobates) in there. I also have 35 one month old Labidochromis Careleus in there, which I don't consider to be a threat to anything, if anything at all, maybe a food source to the bigger male Pytcho LOL.
Eventually I'll phase out the Malawi Mbuna, but am leaning towards keeping my very peaceful Haps and Peacocks. They'll probably stay there, and I'll transfer the Madagascars over to the 180 also since their adult sizes are pretty bulky, and make the 100 gallon a Victorian tank, and my 75 just a mixed tank of keeper fry. My 15 and 20 are just holding/hospital tanks, no plans to long term house anything in those.
I need a wife like you or Brenda LOL. I had to throw out an extra 55 I scored off eBay, when I got a small group of Fullerboni back in May because she didn't want to see too many tanks!! I house the place up with tanks if I had my way.
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Post by Carl on Jan 8, 2009 21:37:04 GMT -5
Believe it or not, my husband is trying to figure out how to put more tanks in our house. We've got a decent sized house, but we're running out of wall space for larger tanks. He is talking about building double stands...he's as bad as I am!! Double stands are definitely a good way to go IMO. At my previous residence I had a converted bedroom that was wall to wall tanks, all on double stack stands. BTW, my Angels thanks you for the compliment Brenda! He is on my pics page, the montage at the top of, EA, & my Avatar too (although hard to see, bu he insisted on going camping with us, LOL) Carl
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Post by brenda on Jan 8, 2009 22:14:43 GMT -5
I can't tell you how pleasing it is to have another cichlid keeper here and one that is fluent in the latin/scientific names to boot!! I should be getting the Christmas Fulu sometime next week. For the time being, as I really don't want to put them in my Malawi tank, I'm going to put them in my 100 gallon, which has 2 Madagascar species, (Pytchochromis Oligacanthus, and Paratilapia Polleni) and one Mozambique (Tilapia Bythobates) in there. I also have 35 one month old Labidochromis Careleus in there, which I don't consider to be a threat to anything, if anything at all, maybe a food source to the bigger male Pytcho LOL. Eventually I'll phase out the Malawi Mbuna, but am leaning towards keeping my very peaceful Haps and Peacocks. They'll probably stay there, and I'll transfer the Madagascars over to the 180 also since their adult sizes are pretty bulky, and make the 100 gallon a Victorian tank, and my 75 just a mixed tank of keeper fry. My 15 and 20 are just holding/hospital tanks, no plans to long term house anything in those. I need a wife like you or Brenda LOL. I had to throw out an extra 55 I scored off eBay, when I got a small group of Fullerboni back in May because she didn't want to see too many tanks!! I house the place up with tanks if I had my way. I hear ya Jon on the issue of tanks...My husband is not to up on it...I am still getting another tank though regardless. Barbara is lucky her husband is as bad if not worse about getting more and more tanks. I too would have a house full of tanks if I had it my way!!! Down the road some when we get a bigger house (right now in a condo) I will have a fish room. Or if you all can help me get lovey smith (not sure how it is spelled) fired within the next 2 yrs I can get more tanks!!! He is the Chicago Bears coach.
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2009 22:22:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't call myself fluent in Latin, I can't pronounce any of them! Well, that's not true, I hang with some Vic geeks like myself, and they are forever correcting me. I am lucky enough to live near Dave's Rare Aquarium fish, and not too far from Greg Steeves. I've met him, he's a pretty awesome guy. I've gotten to hear speeches by Paul Loiselle, and Anton Lamboj. I just live in the right area for this...all luck!
Vics are my big interest. I like fish, all the way around, but I am big into Victorians. I should be getting one more species, Haplochromis sp. Ruby or Ruby Green, and then I think I have to be done. There are a few species out there, mostly in Europe, that I'd do anything to have...but getting them imported might just be impossible. Haplochromis sp. Limax for one.
I do, however, love my angels. They were my first love in fish, and I will probably always have a tank of them. I love their behavior, their looks, the size, just everything. We bought mine at about dime sized, and they have just grown like crazy for us.
My husband is an avid "bottom bouncer" guy. He loves his plecos, his cories, his loaches, anything that lives on the bottom of the tanks is his. His summer goal is to build a pond with a mud bank to get his Rhino plecos to spawn.
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Post by barbara on Jan 8, 2009 22:24:11 GMT -5
I hear ya Jon on the issue of tanks...My husband is not to up on it...I am still getting another tank though regardless. Barbara is lucky her husband is as bad if not worse about getting more and more tanks. I too would have a house full of tanks if I had it my way!!! Down the road some when we get a bigger house (right now in a condo) I will have a fish room. Or if you all can help me get lovey smith (not sure how it is spelled) fired within the next 2 yrs I can get more tanks!!! He is the Chicago Bears coach. OK, yes my husband loves the tanks....but with him gone, who does all the work? He will come home and do water changes, rearrange rock work and all, but for the most part, I do all the work on the tanks. So, for him to talk about adding more...fine and dandy, til he has to clean them all!! I definitely don't mind taking care of my tanks...but I don't know how many more "big" tanks I can handle. I know I need 3 more, at least 40 breeder sized, but I'd like 55's. I just don't know how many more HE has in mind!
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 8, 2009 23:09:13 GMT -5
you 2 are a definate match made in heaven. i am enviouse of that relationship....lol. anyways....thanx for all the pix.....love all the species in the tank.it is great to have ya here and i know you will be a top contributer....
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 12:17:12 GMT -5
The one problem I am having, and I hate to even talk about it, is I am getting deformed fry from my Neochromis Omnicaeruleus. The first spawn had one, and I wasn't all that concerned with one fry out of 11. The deformity is in the tail; it seems to have curve to it. I asked someone who I consider an expert on this, and he said let the fry grow for a month or two before culling. We are at a month right now, and while this fry has more control, I do see a difference between this one and the others. Smaller, and less able to move.
I just got my second spawn from these. Half of the fry seem to have some sort of a problem. When I questioned the genetics, I was told that this shouldn't be the issue. That I was reacting too early on this. But, although this species isn't endangered, it does seem to be extremely rare in the hobby.
So, here is a run down of how I keep these fish, and what happened with the second batch, which makes me suspicious that maybe these fish were held too long.
The mother was placed into a 10 gallon isolation tank within a couple of days of holding. The females of this species are as aggressive as the males, and I have had a holding female killed in the tank. The females in isolation are very paranoid, and spend a lot of time hiding. I have just barely seen the fry, and she quickly scoops them back up. I noticed that with the first batch, the female had released fully developed, free swimming fry at 12 days. This one has held at least 2 1/2 weeks, and still collects the fry whenever I approach. The fry that seem normal are larger than their problem siblings.
Now, I do know that the parent fish are probably related, and possibly from the same spawn. They are very hard to get, and I am assuming that a batch was sent out from one spawn.
I have a chance this weekend to get more. The new group came in larger than the group I have, so I am assuming that they are at least from a different spawn, if not from different parents. My plan is to mix and match...take the males from the old group, and use them with the new group of females, and use the new males and use them with my existing colony. If this solves my problems, then I know it is a genetic issue. If it doesn't, then I'm unsure of how to procede. Do I begin stripping the mothers at 11 days post spawn? Should I be doing this anyway?
I'm looking for some insight. I have received some advice to cull all the fish, including parents, and start over. Easier said than done. I may not be able to get these fish again. If I determine that one fish is the problem, it being male or female, I am willing to cull, not happy, but willing. But I refuse to scrap the group over this. Not going to happen.
I am not going to distribute fry from either spawn I have gotten. I will keep the fry and try to mate them with a different spawn from this new group I am getting. That's my best option right now, other than culling the fry. I'd like to see how they breed.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
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Post by Carl on Jan 9, 2009 13:11:09 GMT -5
I will start by qualifying, that this is not my area of expertise (yes I have bred though). I agree with how you are preceding and certainly I do know that many fish should have a recovery period between breedings. One area I am more versed in is water chemistry and feeding and its affect on fish; and often a fish that is not in optimum condition cannot produce healthy offspring. This may be a shot in the dark as your fish may already be in good water parameters; 0 ammonia/nitrites, high electrolyte levels (GH), a balanced Redox, etc. As well nutrition is likely good as well. What is the diet you are feeding? Otherwise, this may be a genetics problem, which will have to be taken one step at a time. Carl
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 9, 2009 13:27:14 GMT -5
I have noticed the "curved" or "bent tail" characteristics during my tenure as a raiser of live bearers and have always attributed it do to inbreeding or a genetic flaw - I discovered this when "accidental breedings occured between pairs that I had not intended to let breed or who were fertilized again after the initial conception by the intended male - swollen bellies and humpbacks were other traits I noticed as well which probably wouldn't be as apparent in cichlids.....hope this helps
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 15:48:08 GMT -5
Food wise, I am feeding mix of Cichlid flake and Spirulina flake with an occasional feeding of some high protein food, such as frozen brine shrimp or frozen bloodworms. These fish are herbivores, and I try to not overfeed the meaty foods.
My water is fine, actually comes out of the tap ready for Cichlids. I'd have to test, but I know my water is about 8.0 ph, I can't remember the hardness off hand. I'll have to do a retest, but I do water changes of 50% every 7-10 days.
These fish seem to be excellent mothers, so I allow them to stay with the fry for a week or more after release. I just wonder if being mouthbrooders would play any part in this....I have bred some other cichlids and not noticed any problems, but they don't seem as skittish as the Neochromis Omnicaeruleus are.
I will be mixing them up tomorrow, if this deal comes thru. My females are in isolation right now, as I didn't want to leave less females than males in the tank with aggressive tank mates. We'll see what the next batch holds.
Thanks for the input. It's hard to deal with rare and endangered fish, and then run into problems.
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Post by Carl on Jan 9, 2009 16:51:24 GMT -5
I thought that water parameters and feeding was not the problem, but I thought I would ask. I would make sure that you have adequate Calcium, magnesium, and potassium. With the lack of Calcium in particular fish can lose (leak) substantial quantities of other important minerals into the water critical for normal heart, nerve and muscle function. I think your feeding regimine is excellent IMO. I think genetics is the likely culprit, as murdock also noted. Carl
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 17:00:08 GMT -5
I think you are right. I will mix the groups that I am getting and see where it goes from there. It's really the only thing I can do.
The rewards of breeding fish that are rare are high, but when problems occur, it seems to be harder to work out the fixes. I am having some problems with my Kyoga Flamebacks, not having any females. It's not easy to find what you need by running to my LFS and getting one. I think that's part of the fun tho, the difficulties seem to make the rewards seem like more.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jan 9, 2009 18:48:48 GMT -5
good attitude!
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 20:11:24 GMT -5
I appreciate the input. I had guessed that genetics/inbreeding was the problem. I'm not completely convinced it is, but I am leaning that way. Getting the new colony is more important to me than ever.
I heard a speech by Dr. Paul Loiselle on conservation, and this topic was brought up. His personal practice is to get just as many fish of the species as he can. Throw them all in a big tank together, wait for the dominant to emerge. Remove all other males. Allow dominant male to spawn with as many females as possible, then remove him to a bachelor tank. Repeat with another male. Basically the fathers will be different and the mothers may be the same. Make the biggest group of offspring that you can, and then choose your next colonies from these fry. That in this situation the genetic material is varied enough with the different males to limit the problems of inbreeding. I found this interesting.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 20:13:40 GMT -5
Barbara,
I am inclined to believe your first assumption is correct based on what you said. Being I'm about to get Christmas Fulu myself next week, I am taking a bit interest in this topic. Though not the same species as this one you're having issues with, I still find this overall, interesting. I've had maybe 1 or 2 Protomelas Steveni come out deformed, and the group I got, did all come from the same seller, but I also had numerous males and females, like three males and seven females. Who spawned with who, best guess there, but I have read in some other forums, that genetically, it usually takes about 4-5 generations of inbreeding before this really becomes an issue. If this problem is due to inbreeding, it's a species that's probably been inbreed over many generations I'd bet.
I have strong feelings your thoughts to mix up the group will work out well. I am not big into stripping females though. I've heard too many bad stories about stripping females and how they tend not to hold broods to term after doing it. You sound very experienced however, and I wouldn't worry personally. My female yellow lab is very much protective of her broods, and it seems to me, like the fry want to get out and swim around, but she just refuses to let them out LOL. She pretty much goes a good solid 21 days really from when I find her holding to when I can see them out and swimming around, and I isolate her as well. She really doesn't seem pleased about it, but I've collected over a 100 fry from her over the last 3 months. Plus one brood holding now. Try the mixing up for now Barbara, and just see how it goes.
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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 9, 2009 20:48:40 GMT -5
I too have bred fish, not cichlids but bettas. I started with a bunch of bettas from Petsmart and bred them to a male from a specialty fish store. I got about 50% normal fry and 50% deformed in some way. Examples are 1 with a deformed jaw, one fish lacking 2 fins, many fish with very short nuzzles, a tiny fish with a tail that was was double like a goldfish's instead of a betta's (I don' know how to describe it), fish that turned to males after being average sized females for a year, etc. And not enough survived so I decided it was in the fish's best interest to stop breeding them.
Now I breed guppies. From what I have observed there have been very few deformities with my guppies. I have a near 100% survival rate minus the adults that eat them if one gives birth and I am not home. I also keep their tanks very clean and do a 40-50% water change twice weekly. I've found that many water changes and cleanings helps drastically with ensuring a greater number survive.
I've found that nutrition, cleanliness, water parameters, and temperature affect a spawn as well as genetics though genes are probably the biggest factor. What is your surival rate?
I've found that when more fry die, more are deformed. This probably has to do with poor tank parameters, a dirty tank, or disease. But of course, if your parameters and tank is fine and there is no disease, it is probably genetics.
Good luck with your fish! Hope breeding goes better!
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