AMMONIA LEVELS

[cashay]

OK I got all the other water parameters up and steady at least for a couple of weeks now,
Nitrate-20
Nitrite-0
GH- 175
KH-80 still working on making it higher But it hasn't dropped.
PH-7.2

BUT NOW AMMONIA IS A LITTLE WORSE THEN STRESSFUL ,ACTUALLY AT HARMFUL, I HAVE PUT SOME OF THAT STUFF TO REMOVE AMMONIA BUT IT SAYS TO CHECK AGAIN IN 2 HOURS AFTER ADDING IT, AND IF STILL HIGH GET ADVISE FROM A SPECIALIST, SO I AM BACK TO ASKING ALL OF YOU WHAT I CAN DO TO LOWER THIS? I HAVE DONE 25% WATER CHANGE, SHOULD I DO A LITTLE MORE % ON THE WATER CHANGE? I HAVE ALSO BEEN TRYING TO FIND THE ARTICLE ON IT, BUT I COULDN'T FIND IT..

[Carl]

First, here is the article I think you need:
Nitrogen Cycle; what to do for high ammonia

The what to do for high ammonia section is near the bottom.

*I would perform small water changes,
*use Prime or Amquel Plus,
*Zeolite (Ammo Chips or Ammo Carb)
*Cut back on feedings
*Add any "seasoned" filter media from other tanks that you may have (gravel works too)

As to your KH/pH; the numbers you have are good, so just keeping your KH in particular at the level you would be great.
I would not raise them further, especially with higher ammonia levels.

Carl

[kagome]

The number one article would probably be this one:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

What kind of ammonia treatment are you using? As far as I know even if you neutralize ammonia into the less toxic ammonium it still shows up on the test. For emergency use and use with replacement water I would suggest Prime. For continuous use until the tank is cycled I would suggest ammo chips.

I would highly recommend a water change and possibly make sure you are not over feeding.

edit: sorry Carl, we posted at the same time I think. I was trying to help out.

[8 in the Corner]

Sherry,
Water changes, water changes, water changes. The most important thing you can do to keep your fish and aquarium healthy is to do regular, frequent water changes. If you are doing 30-40% water changes once a week and the ammonia is still high, you are either feeding too much or the tank is overstocked. You may need to cut down on feeding (either amount or frequency) or increase the frequency of your water changes. Twice a week is not too often if you have a crowded tank or feed too much.

You also may need to do a gravel siphon more frequently.

If you just did a 25% change and the ammonia is still high, do another one right away. Adding chemicals to your tank to control the water parameters is just not a good idea. Not only is it expensive, the chemicals will eventually cause problems for you.

Your fish will adjust and live with the water parameters you have coming out of your faucet. The only thing you need to do is keep up with the regular, partial water changes to keep the big three (ammonia, nitrites and nitrates) at bay. GH and KH are important only when they get way out of whack.

I have 25 tanks and do not test for anything but pH and then only when I bring home new fish or transfer fish from one tank to another. Water changes are what keeps fish healthy, that and a good high quality diet aimed at the species you keep.
John

[jonv]

On the chemical aspect of it, Prime is a product made by SeaChem and Carl also sells this off American Aquarium products. Normally, I'm not a big fan of any chemical products either, but the mention of Prime that Carl is saying, is well worth it. I've been using this going on a year now, and it's simply an awesome product, this comming from someone not big on chemical treatments.

Prime will not only ionize the ammonia in the tank, lessening the impact of it on the fish, while you lower it via water changes, but will do the same for nitrites as well. It will also allow the bacteria to utilize it as a fuel source still, so no threat to your bio filter, and it also de-chlorinates at a rate of 50 gallons per capful. I don't know what more you can ask from a product like that. I highly reccomend that. Again, you can get it right here from Carl too.

I think it's also worth linking for discussion purposes, the article Carl has for the forum as well. It might be just a repeat of known things, but I have found big health improvements among my stock after following the points of what Carl illustrates in this. The KH and GH factors in terms of overall electrolytes do so much for fish and their health, I make use of wonder shells myself to keep these up high. I use this article myself to support many of my answers in YA.

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

[cashay]

;D You wouldn't be trying to sell Carl's stuff are you Jon? lol You are a little to late. I have already and have been using the Prime (from Carl) and also the wondershells! I always like to read his articles to. But the best thing is .. Is hearing everyone else talk about how good they are, because it makes a person less likely to second guess.. I was scared of the prime at first because I obviously did something wrong the first time, but having used it I like it better but still a little scared of it, on how much to use at once.....
And I'm really happy to be part of such a great forum. I have learned so much from everyone, and The fact that Carl answers my questions so fast is the far most best part of it. He and everyone is teaching me to be a good fish keeper!

[jonv]

If I could I would LOL. I've toyed with trying to link and set up an ad page I post on aquabid and eBay and CF trading post, when I list my juvies for sale, and to link Carl's products to my add, but I'm not too savvy on how to do things like that. Carl really could use the supporting of the articles in our discussions as well as exposure to what his company does distribute certainly won't hurt either. We are all a great group of people with interest to help one another as well as spread our knowledge and experience. I try to link in and use Carl's hard worked research whenever possible.

[cashay]

Liquid Cycle and Stress-Zyme are just preserved bacteria that are more useful for over feeding or other bio over loads in an established aquarium (as aerobic bacteria needed for nitrification do not store well in liquid form at room temperature without oxygen). Even Fritz-Zyme which contains the proper nitrifying autotrophic bacteria tends to use it’s in bottle food supply and be less effective.
Honestly Cycle or Stress Zyme are really only useful to aid in breakdown of excess wastes from over feeding, poor filtration, etc. (Cycle can also be used as an aid to organic breakdown while waiting for your aquarium Nitrogen Cycle to get started from other means when fish are present). The Heterotrophic Bacteria within these products can aid in the decomposing of excess organic waste however they are basically useless for actually seeding an aquarium and this is a FACT.

Ok so this means the stress-Zyme will help eliminate Ammonia? since levels rising could mean over feeding or over stocked???

[goldenpuon]

Either one or both (overfeeding/overstocking). How much are you currently feeding per day? Also what kind of fish are in the tank and how many? It's a 13 gallon right? It seems like your tanks tanking a while to cycle but hey, that's how my first tank cycling went. It took 4 months!!! Also, Stress Zyme doesn't eliminate ammonia, it is supposed to contains beneficial bacteria that break down ammonia. But from what I've heard from Carl before, (I may be wrong), it is not the best source of bacteria as they are contained in a bottle with no food and left on the shelf before they're used for a long time. Good luck!!

[jonv]

Eliminate, I guess depends on your point of view really. If you take organic material and allow it to break down, you would have one speed if you didn't use it, and an accelerated pace if you did. From that point of view, I guess you could say it does in that it speeds the presence of it into the water I guess. Provided you'd have a readily active bio filter going, it'd just become consumed up and oxidized. I just don't see the benefit of it really. It might cloud the water spurring a bacterial bloom in growing bacteria.

I got sold on Cycle way back when I restarted keeping fish a few years ago, but since reading up and interacting with others, I find Cycle to be a very worthless product myself. Maybe for a person just taking a single tank starting out, but that person could probably benefit more from borrowing even some gravel from an established tank then using this stuff. If you already have a mature tank, then Cycle becomes completely pointless. Stress Zyme, I'm not sure but I was thinking that only promoted a slime coating in fish.

[kagome]

Pretty much there are only three ways to actually eliminate ammonia. A tiny, tiny amount of ammonia evaporates from the surface of the aquarium, but this is so minimal it almost doesn't count. Second, when you do a water change you remove ammonia with the old water and then replace that water with ammonia free water. This basically dilutes the ammonia in your tank. Plus, when you vacuum the gravel and remove the poop this removes the main source of organic breakdown and thus the main culprit in ammonia production. Third is when ammonia is broken down by nitrifying bacteria into nitrite and nitrate. It is this cycle of good bacteria in your tank that makes keeping aquarium fish possible. When you are cycling a tank the whole point is to get a colony of these bacteria to grow and take hold in your tank so they can break down the ammonia. Then you should only have to do a water change once a week.

The reason that so many people who know what they're talking about don't recommend products like Stress Zyme is because the main bacteria that break down ammonia in a tank are aerobic bacteria, meaning that they require a constant supply of air in order to survive. So the kind of bacteria that you want in your tank couldn't possibly survive being stuffed in a closed bottle with no air and nothing to feed on. If they could survive that bottling and shipping and storage process then everyone would use it and there wouldn't be five million articles on the internet about how to best cycle your tank and all the different techniques for doing it. Everyone would just say, "Hey, buy a bottle of this stuff and you'll be set up in no time." I'm sure that Stress Zyme won't hurt and it will add some beneficial bacteria, but not the kind that are going to do the majority of the ammonia removal in your tank. And many, many successful tanks are up and running right now without ever having used that stuff.

Products like Prime do not remove ammonia, they simply change the molecule from the highly toxic ammonia to the much less toxic ammonium. This will keep you from losing fish and will still leave the ammonium in a form that the good bacteria can still eat and therefore using Prime will not prevent your tank from becoming established. The only problem with Prime is that it only works on the ammonia that is right there in the tank at that moment. As new ammonia is produced the Prime cannot bind it up and make it less toxic. That is part of why it is so important to test your ammonia as much as possible (once a day if you can until tank is established) and do much more frequent water changes (like 25% every other day), using Prime as your water conditioner. Once your tank has been fully cycled and has a good colony of bacteria to act as a bio filter then you can go to doing water changes only once a week or so depending on the kind and number of fish you have and then you can just use Start Right to remove the chlorine from your tap water.

Getting through the initial cycling of a new tank when you don't have a bunch of filter media and/or gravel from an established tank can be a long and tedious process. Believe me, I know, I've been going through it for over a month now with my new tank. But it will eventually settle down and then the tank will be so much easier to take care of. You just have to make sure your tank is not overloaded and that you don't overfeed. If you're only feeding one big meal a day, try breaking it up into two smaller meals and actually stand there and watch them and make sure they are eating ALL of the food. Remember that fish have tiny little stomachs and so they can't eat very big meals all at once. Having rotting food in the tank can cause huge ammonia problems.

[kagome]

Crap, I just realized that I didn't actually answer your original question. It still sounds like your tank is not fully cycled in the first place and that is the basic assumption that everyone is going on when they are answering your questions. It sounds like you haven't got an established colony of nitrifying bacteria in your tank. That is the whole point of 'cycling' a tank, getting those bacteria to establish themselves so they will eat up your ammonia. You've been having so many problems with your water conditions that it really does sound like you don't have a bacterial colony going yet that is big enough to handle your bioload. However, if the tank is fully cycled then it has to be either overfeeding or overstocking. How many and what kind of fish do you have and in how many gallons? As far as overfeeding goes, that's a simple problem to fix, you simply feed less, as I discussed in my other post. I really hope all this makes sense, it's late and I'm getting punchy.

[Carl]

Excellent points to Sherry's questions everyone!

I will add that Stress-Zyme and cycle contain Heterotrophic Bacteria which will decompose some waste, so they can be useful, however these are NOT the aerobic nitrifying Autotrophic bacteria needed for your aquarium to fully cycle.

I will also add that Heterotrophic Bacteria are not as efficient at digesting wastes as Autotrophic bacteria.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Carl, so you're saying that products liek Stress Zyme contain Heterotrophic bacteria that aid in cycling but are not as good at it as the aerobic nitrifying bacteria? (Just trying to make sense here)

[Carl]

Dec 11, 2008 16:36:30 GMT -5 goldenpuon said:

Carl, so you're saying that products liek Stress Zyme contain Heterotrophic bacteria that aid in cycling but are not as good at it as the aerobic nitrifying bacteria? (Just trying to make sense here)

Not quite.

The Heterotrophic bacteria found in Stress Zyme are NOT the the efficient aerobic bacteria that are needed for a healthy aquarium with any bio load at all.
These bacteria are simply waste digesters (& not as efficient either)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Ok, got it. Glad I got that straight.

[cashay]

Wow alot of info! Thanks everyone! I know the problem is boiling down to a recycled tank, so this is good.. just annoying when thinking your finally there then boom! (ammonia) Having no gravel in the tank. is this actually not a good thing? This makes it easier to see if all food is eaten, and believe me.. I dont think over feeding is a problem! I think Im raising piglets instead of fish! they leave nothing!!! But also I can see if anything is rotting or not and everything looks good, thats why I get so confused on the problems. It maybe an over stocking problem, I have 6 skirt tetra's and three Mollies, in a 14 gallon tank, But No gravel, one live java fern, and two fake plants. simple tank

[Carl]

Having no gravel has its pluses and minuses, but I think in the long run, the pluses for you should out weigh the negatives.

The negatives is less area for nitrifying bacteria, however this is easily over come with an additional sponge filter or similar and/or a potted aquatic plant, where by both the plant and the planting substrate also remove nutrients from the water (the planting substrate via bacteria).

Carl

[bikeguy33]

for a 14 gallon tank as well....you ARE NOT overstocked. these fish are all pretty small. i have seen healthy tanks that size with 3 times as many fish. but, with more fish comes more frequent maintenance.

[cashay]

Cool, I didn't think I was over stocked but then I'm always second guessing myself anyway! So carl you think I should have three filters in there? I have one sponge filter in there, plus the hob whisper? Or should I get rid of the whisper and get another sponge? I dont know about the potted plant... I wouldn't know how to add the plant food...