fin and tail rot

[hab13]

I don't have much experiance with aquariums but I have a rainbow shark with fin and tail rot, he is in a well established ten gallon tank and I have removed all the other fish. I treated the tank twice over the past couple months with melafix but he just continued to get worse, so I proceeded with triple sulfa for ten days doing a 25% water change before each dose. The fish improved somewhat but he is still in very bad shape and I am unsure what to do next. can anyone give me advice if I should continue the same treatment or try something new. The petstore where I take my water in to get tested recommended Maracyn but I have been given bad advice in the past and am hesitant to listen to them. What should I do?

[murdock6701]

help is on the way......

[bikeguy33]

well first off......welcome to everything aquatic.

I have a couple questions tho.has this 10 gallon always been his home? a 10 gallon is pretty small for a rainbow or red tip or anything like that. is he still small??? what was in with him? fin and tail rot are very common with a stressed fish and rainbows can get stressed quite easily in my experience. sometimes when the stressed fish becomes unstressed, the fin rot just goes away.

also....as per normal, what are your water conditions if you know them...if not we will assume they are good since you mentioned frequent water changes.

as for fin rot...it is more a symptom of diseases. it is normally a bacterial infection. normal causes are stress, poor water conditions, injury, bad diet, or a secondary condition brought on by any number of other diseases.

this shark has had this for awhile...so a stronger med may be needed. let us know as much as you can and we`ll give a list of appropriate medications to use.

[Carl]

First, if you could post your water parameters as fin and tail rot is generally opportunistic and water conditions, stress, and injury are major factors.

Here are a few and what I recommend for your shark:
*Ammonia/nitrites- 0
*Nitrates- under 50 (lower is better)
*pH Stable
*KH- 50-100 ppm for ph stability
*GH- 100-250 for VERY important calcium and other electrolytes necessary for healing, osmoregulation and more.

NEXT; Melafix although a good first measure in injury is the same concept as Bactine in humans, once an infection starts it often will not help much.
Sulfas are generally helpful in fin and tail rot cases, but Erythromycin (the ingredient in Maracyn) usually is not.

I would strongly recommend a medicated bath twice daily using Mehtylene Blue, salt and possibly a double tank dose of Nitrofurazone. Please see this article in the baths section for how to perform this:
AQUARIUM DISEASE PREVENTION; Baths, section 9

I would then add Nitrofuarzone (Furan II) directly to your tank.

I want point out that all the medications in the world will not help if your tank conditions are poor and the fish cannot carry our normal osmoregulation.
I recommend reading these article for more:
Aquarium Medications; including Melafix)
Aquarium GH, KH, pH, Electrolytes
Freshwater Basics

I hope we can help you and WELCOME to this group!! ;D

Carl

[hab13]

Thank you so much for responding so quickly to my problem. To start off with the history of the fish, he is a rainbow shark I rescued about 3 years ago, thus starting my first aquatic experiance, he is only 5 inches in length and has been kept in this ten gallon tank ever since I got him. However, I have recieved poor information and training from the various pet stores in my region and about a year ago I purchased another albino rainbow shark, he was small but as he grew they began to fight and as things progressed I decided to purchase another 29 gallon aquarium. However in the process of setting up the new tank and waiting for it to cycle, my rainbow shark got picked on quite a lot. I am sure the cause of his problems started with wounds caused by the other shark. About two months ago I seperated all other fish out of the ten gallon tank except for my rainbow shark and a small feeder goldfish that also is having problems which I thought could be related. The goldfish had pop-eye, which I treated with melafix and it went away but then about 2 weeks later clouded over and became kind of sunken in. I have had numerous water testings but only for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates . Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates have been at zero for as long as I can remember but I didn't even know to test for anything else. I have done a lot of reading and had planned on picking up a medicated wonder shell and paraguard tomorrow - am I correct in thinking this will help my water conditions? Can I purchase a testing kit to test for GH KH and pH myself? I am not sure if the food I am feeding is adequete either-its called Nutrafin Max sinking food tablets. I have researched the medicated baths and read all the aquarium medications I am just too inexperianced to know how to proceed next, his fins are very badly deteriorated and I want to make sure I handle this correctly...Thanks agian for everyone's help

[brenda]

These guys here will try their best to get your fish better...They really know their stuff!!! Ammonia and nitrites at 0 is good but in an established tank you should have some nitrate readings. Glad you seperated the sharks...I have never kept them but have always heard you should generally only have 1 in a tank.

Oh, welcome to everything aquatic!!

[kagome]

You can get tests so that you can test your own Ph and other parameters. Basically you have two choices, either get dipstrips or liquid tests. I would recommend using the liquid tests for two reasons, they are more accurate and cheaper per test in the long run. Plus, if it only one certain parameter that you are having trouble with you can test for that and only that when you need to instead of wasting tests for other parameters when you only need the one. In my area the liquid tests run about $6.99 for somewhere around 130 to 150 tests per box versus $15.99 for 25 tests with dipstrips. I was using dipstrips to check ammonia and tried a little experiment and found that I got radically different results even though I was testing the same water in the exact same way, so I gave up on the dipstrips and just so liquid now.

As far as I know I think you can only pick up Medicated Wondershells by ordering them through Carl. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but I live in Florida and it usually takes about five business days for my orders to get here. I used the Medicated Wondershells to get rid of a nasty little protozoan infestation in my tank that was eating at my gourami's fins and it worked great. I must warn you that it will turn the water blue for a few days but it works great. My fish really looked pitiful but he's doing very well now and has grown back all his fins. And I have a clown loach in the tank and they can be very sensitive to medicines but the he did great with the Medicated Wondershells. Just make sure when you order that you click on Medicated and not regular.

As far as whether or not the wondershells are appropriate for your particular problems, I am definitely not the one to tell you that, I just thought I'd let you in on my experience with them.

Welcome to the forum, I hope your fish gets better!

[bikeguy33]

i do agree with carl on the furan 2. have used this with succss with a few bacterial infections. keep him solo and stress free and hopefully he will start to improve. also....do you add salt to your water? aquarium salt will help fin rot ALOT.

[Carl]

As others noted, the Medicated Wonder Shells may help, however you may be past where the "medicated" part can help (the Mineral part of the Wonder Shells can still be VERY helpful for mineralization and electrolytes.

The Nitrofurazone is stronger antibacterial, and I would recommend attempting the baths (possibly including the Nitrofuarzone in the baths). The page I noted earlier with the bath information (Aquarium disease Prevention, Baths also has a new video demonstrating them as well.

The symptoms you described with your goldfish further indicate an anaerobic bacterial infection, generally Aeromonas (see this article: Aeromonas Infections)

With this in mind, what likely happened based on the scenario you described is that your tank could not handle the bio load and had inadequate filtration, along with the injured fins from fighting and stress.
Aeromonas bacteria thrives in those conditions, and improving conditions is important for recovery.

Although the Medicated Wonder Shells and ParaGuard are good products, I do not think that is what is called for. As kagome noted, the Medicated WS are good for parasites (velvet/ich) and some fungus/saprolegnia as well, however this seems to be a bacterial infection.
Regular Wonder Shells along with the salt in the tank that bikeguy suggested would certainly help.

Changing water as you already noted is a good idea as well.
Try and get a GH/KH test kit, as kagome noted the liquid are more cost effective and generally more active, although I use both depending on the need for "speed", accuracy and with the 5 in 1 strips, I do find them handy to test everything at once (they do not test ammonia, although often nitrites will only be a few days behind so I can deduce ammonia).
See this article for more about test kits:
Aquarium Answers; Test Kits

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I don't know much about rainbows but I do know a 10 gallon is too small for one. Is the goldfish still in with it? Overstocking could have worsened these problems. Also, what is the KG and GH (also called Alkilinity and Hardness)? Both are just as important as PH. In my experience, fish kept at the with these paramaters off can get fin rot as with any disease where they get stressed.

Also, what kind of filter do you have and how often do you clean out the gravel bed?

For Methyline Blue baths, put your fish in a gallon or more jug (due to its size) of aquarium water and add MB at double dose. The water will turn VERY blue but this is normal. Let Let the fish stay in there for about 20 minutes. Also if you can get epsom salt, that will aid in the bath. (You can get it at your local drugstore.) After you are done with the bath, gently net the fish out and put it back in its tank. DO NOT put any of the methyline blue into the aquarium. Though it is very helpful in treating fish, MB kills bacteria including the ones that kepp your ammonia/nitrites down. Also, just so you know, methyline blue stains things very easily.

Hope that helps! Good luck!

Renee

[hab13]

Ok... two more questions, how long do I do the medicated baths and treatement to the tank, and my GH and KH are too high what is the best and fastest way to resolve this?

[Carl]

Dec 1, 2008 19:01:27 GMT -5 hab13 said:

Ok... two more questions, how long do I do the medicated baths and treatement to the tank, and my GH and KH are too high what is the best and fastest way to resolve this?

Medicated Baths should be at least 30 minutes (I have done 45 before as well).
See section 9 of this article for more:
Aquarium Disease Prevention; Baths, Dips

The in tank treatment should be as long as it takes to cure the fish PLUS 2-4 days more treatments. This assumes that the medication works in the first place, which admittedly the best anyone can honestly say is that we are making "educated" guesses, so you should start to see results within 3-4 days if we are on the right track.

As to the final part of your question, what is your KH, and GH, especially since too high of a GH is EXTREMELY rare despite some opinions I have read elsewhere.
So if you could please post your numbers.

I would read this article for more on this subject:
Aquarium pH, KH, GH, Electrolytes

Carl

[hab13]

well I used the five in one test strips and my GH was 180 and the KH was 240 the Ph was 8.5 and the nitrates and nitrites were at 0 or very close to 0. Maybe I'm reading the strips wrong but I followed the directions and matched the colors as closely as I could, I even did more than one test

[Carl]

Dec 1, 2008 20:20:11 GMT -5 hab13 said:

well I used the five in one test strips and my GH was 180 and the KH was 240 the Ph was 8.5 and the nitrates and nitrites were at 0 or very close to 0. Maybe I'm reading the strips wrong but I followed the directions and matched the colors as closely as I could, I even did more than one test

OK, your GH is fine (in fact unusually low considering the KH and pH).

I would next perform a test on your tap water and then change some aquarium water water if your tap has lower pH (if you post these results, that would be helpful).

If your tap water is not lower I would "cut" the pH VERY slowly (too fast will cause pH shock) using RO water (Reverse Osmosis).

Please note I do not normally recommend chasing pH, and although your KH is high, it does not explain this high of a pH.
We had another thread in this forum (by Cashay) where the problem is the opposite and is a little more common.

I would thoroughly read the GH, pH, KH article I noted earlier for further explanations.

Do NOT add any buffers, only minerals such as Wonder Shells or similar products since your GH is fine.

Carl

[hab13]

I tested my pH for regular tap water and it is at 7.5...what am I doing to my tank to increase the pH?

[Carl]

Dec 2, 2008 13:49:44 GMT -5 hab13 said:

I tested my pH for regular tap water and it is at 7.5...what am I doing to my tank to increase the pH?

What if any chemicals are you adding to your tank?

What substrate do you use?

What decorations are you using?

Also we need to know your tap KH to properly diagnose the problem since since KH "controls" pH

Carl

[hab13]

I add aqua plus, a tap water conditioner, and aquarium salt with water changes otherwise I don't add anything else. (However I did just add a regular magic shell)

I use a rock gravel and the only other thing in the tank is an airator and a plastic (I think) fish cave decoration thing that the shark swims in, I have noticed that the paint on the cave thing is deteriorating somewhat.

the KH is still at 240 with the tap water test

[Carl]

Something I forgot to mention is that tap water will "gas out"

Here is a paste from the GH, KH, pH, Electrolytes article:
"Another point to pH is tap water or well water pH when drawn will often gas out (sometimes referred to as “gassing out”). This is trapped CO2 gas in the tap water (also Hydrogen Sulfite as well) that will slowly gas out of the water if allowed to sit.
What I mean is you will get a sample of tap/well water then immediately test it and get a result such as 6.5 that can rise to 7.0 or higher over the next hour as CO2 gasses out, if there are carbonates (KH) in the water (even more common in well water from my experience), the pH will rise (sometimes appreciably). "

My reason for pointing this out is that maybe you have higher pH water than thought, your high tap KH indicates this is possible.

The Wonder Shells or the NutraFin Aqua Plus Tap Water Conditioner should not affect KH/pH this way either.

I am not sure where the source of your tap water is in WI, but maybe it is very alkaline

You may need to "cut" your water with RO, which is often easily purchased in bulk at water stores, pet stores, dept. stores.
The wonder shells will be invaluable in re-mineralizing this water without raising the pH or KH much (they will just stabilize these parameters)

Carl

[Carl]

I did a little research of your towns municipal water, which I found came 100% from underground wells throughout the city.
www.ci.west-bend.wi.us/departments/water/water%20quality%20report.htm

So next I looked into the geology of the area and found it to have high content of dolomite which would explain the high KH and pH.

This means you are likely doing nothing wrong to cause the high pH, so I would recommend "cutting" your tap water along with adding drift wood and similar tannin producing items in your tank (Bio Lif, Peat, etc.)

Carl

[bikeguy33]

great research skills carl....