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Post by deeice on Mar 31, 2016 9:56:42 GMT -5
Hi Carl, My name is Debra. I am having tremendous difficulty treating my 2 goldfish for what I believe is Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia. I have tried almost every antibiotic. Maracyn 2, Furan 2, Triple Sulfa, Kanaplex & now using Erythromycin which I don't think is working. I have hard water with an 8.2 pH. My nitrites are 0, ammonia spiked to .25 while treating with antibiotics. I'm doing daily PWC's. When I tried to calculate my GH I couldn't get an an actual level. No matter how many drops I put in the test vial it wouldn't go over to green so my my GH must be high. I am not an experienced fish keeper and am quite new to all this. You seem to have helped so many people so I though I would run my problem by you. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much ~
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Mar 31, 2016 12:43:19 GMT -5
Hello and welcome to the group! I would say this is a mild case Aeromonas (Septicemia). This is a disease, which likes tanks will high mulm build-up, which is easy for Goldfish tanks to have. "From my and other professionals thoughts as to why this is; In aquariums/ponds with decomposing organic waste, pure anaerobes make a suitable environment for the facultative anaerobic Aeromonas bacterium to flourish. So get rid of the anaerobes via the decomposing waste/mulm as well as improve other parameters that promote this anaerobic environment and you will get rid of the Aeromonas bacterium (obviously once fish are infected, treatments will also be necessary)" www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html#septicemiaI'd recommend cleaning your substrate, or even consider making a bare bottom tank. I'd consider this first, along with immunity boosters, like the AAP Wonder Shell, quality fish food, Spirulina, or even UVC. If the issue get worst, I would consider the combination treatments listed in this article and even consider medicated baths, which are linked to in this article. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html#treatmentHope that helps!
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Post by Carl on Mar 31, 2016 14:02:56 GMT -5
I would agree that this looks like Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia caused by Aeromonas. Definitely provide medicated bath including Methylene Blue, Kanamycin and either Triple Sulfa or Furan 2 or Maracyn Plus A medicated fish food soak is worth considering using Neomycin OR Metronidazole combined with the Kanamycin in the fish food A few product sources: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/FritzMardelKordon.html#methyleneSince you have put so much medication already in the aquarium, you might use something more mild like a Medicated Wonder Shell and just stay with the baths and maybe fish food soaks for now. Later Triple sulfa might be a good idea to combine with the Medicated Wonder Shell if no results are seen in 5 days. Often water conditions are the trigger for this so make sure you address these. This article is a good starting point too: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlA few key points for prevention and that will also make treatment more likely to be successful (these are taken from the Aeromonas article Devon shared with you): * Good tank parameters including 0 ammonia/nitrites, low nitrates, and a stable pH/KH. Lower pH water can increase the virulence of Aeromonas, so low pH tanks tend to be more problematic to Aeromonas infections.
* Low amounts of DOC (dissolved organic compounds), large amounts of organic mulm/decomposition which will often show up as an unstable pH and KH as well as occasionally high nitrates.
* Aeromonas infections occur most often during environmental changes, stressors, changes in temperature, in contaminated environments, and when an organism is already infected with a virus or another bacterium. Aeromonas can also be ingested through food products contaminated with the Aeromonas bacterium. For this reason be careful to clean up uneaten food and to remove food that may get trapped in filters. As well, if the fish food method of aquarium cycling is used, it is best to dissolve it as a fine powder into water first before adding to the aquarium.
* Use of products such as Pillow Moss which are a natural way to maintain low pH soft water tank while not allowing Aeromonas infections.
* Limit use of Activated Carbon. This is a double edged sword as activated carbon can help lower DOC, however it also can lower dissolved oxygen and provide an ideal surface area for anaerobic Aeromonas bacterial growth. * Good filtration that is regularly and properly cleaned (rinsed with de-chlorinated water, not straight tap water).
* Good circulation which includes a dissolved oxygen 5-7 ppm since Aeromonas is an anaerobic bacteria (it thrives in LOW oxygen water). If you do not have this often difficult to find test kit, simply maintaining a combined aquarium water turnover of 5 times the aquarium size per hour. This counts all circulation devices such as air stones.
* Proper mineralization is important for correct osmoregulation which in turn allows for better oxygen permeation (which recent studies show is important to fish eye infections). This is where the use of products such as AAP Wonder Shells are helpful.
* Too Low Redox; while I often discuss the fact that many aquarium keepers miss the importance of Redox Reducers so as to lower free radicals and for improved osmoregulation, a Redox that is too low or at least needs to be temporarily raised can help with Aeromonas and Vibrio bacterial infections. Generally this can be improved with simply increasing the circulation and oxygen content or for more drastic measures adding Potassium Permanganate can increase your aquarium or ponds Redox oxidation properties quite quickly.Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html#preventThis article specifically addresses Septicemia and is worth reading: www.fish-as-pets.com/2013/06/red-pest-invented-fish-disease-actually.htmlCarl
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Post by deeice on Apr 1, 2016 7:30:39 GMT -5
Thank you Devon and Carl for your helpful replies. I already have a Wonder Shell in my 20 gallon tank (I use 1 small & when it dissolves add another one.) I just placed an order for a medium sized medicated one as you suggested. Last night I did a 50% water change and put my carbon filter back in. I want to clear out the erythromycin I was using and give my fish a break for a few days. Btw, I do vacuum the substrate 2x weekly and keep the tank very clean. I think my fish may have developed the septicemia from stress being moved to a new tank a few months ago. Who knows? It's just strange to me that NO medication worked? Is it ever possible that your water could be too hard or your pH too high for goldfish? Is my pH too high at 8.2? The fish expert at my local store said goldfish love hard water and should have no problems with that pH. Just want to confirm with you. For now I'm going to just add the medicated wonder shell when it gets here and let the fish rest for a bit. I do have 2 live plants. Will the medicated shell irritate them? I will give each fish a medicated bath & medicated food and hope for the best. Will keep the forum posted. Thanks again
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Post by Carl on Apr 1, 2016 9:05:59 GMT -5
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 1, 2016 11:54:36 GMT -5
You could consider checking you KH and that will let you know if you are having any swings in your pH. If that's the cause, this stress could cause this issue. I'd recommend 3-5 dKH at least for. Having a unstable pH is worse than not having a specific pH.
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Post by deeice on Apr 2, 2016 7:09:27 GMT -5
I read all the articles regarding fish baths but still have a question. Let's say I use a quart size container for my two goldfish (is that large enough?)I still don't know amount of medicine to use. I am going to use 1/4 tsp of salt, 4-5 drops of Methylene Blue but have no idea how much Kanaplex, Furan 2 or Triple Sulfa to use? The article states "you can safely add many antibiotics at double normal "in tank" recommended dose for the 30 minute bath."
Can you give me examples of amounts using a quart size bath for each? I don't want to kill my fish.
Thanks again.
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Post by Carl on Apr 2, 2016 10:08:46 GMT -5
I read all the articles regarding fish baths but still have a question. Let's say I use a quart size container for my two goldfish (is that large enough?)I still don't know amount of medicine to use. I am going to use 1/4 tsp of salt, 4-5 drops of Methylene Blue but have no idea how much Kanaplex, Furan 2 or Triple Sulfa to use? The article states "you can safely add many antibiotics at double normal "in tank" recommended dose for the 30 minute bath." Can you give me examples of amounts using a quart size bath for each? I don't want to kill my fish. Thanks again. This is often the part of baths that many find difficult I quart can work, but I do try and use as large a container as possible/available. For one reason it makes measuring meds easier, but also keeping adequate dissolved oxygen during the procedure without adding an air stone in the container is another reason to use larger such as 1/2 to 1 gallon. The packet for Furan 2 treats 10 gallons (Ditto Triple Sulfa), dividing this in 20 small piles would work for 1 quart. Kanaplex is slightly easier IMO; with Kanaplex, 1 level measure treats 5 gallons, so 1 quart and treating at double dose, I would use 1/10th measure. Obviously a gram scale would be best, but most persons do not have such a thing and even thing 100% accuracy is not important, you just want to make sure you do not severely over dose or under dose either Carl
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Post by deeice on Apr 2, 2016 19:20:18 GMT -5
So I'm going to do a fish bath using 1 gallon of water. I'm going to use:
1 Tsp Salt 1/4 Tsp of Methylene Blue 1/2 level spoon of Kanaplex
Does this sound right?
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Post by Carl on Apr 3, 2016 22:47:30 GMT -5
So I'm going to do a fish bath using 1 gallon of water. I'm going to use: 1 Tsp Salt 1/4 Tsp of Methylene Blue 1/2 level spoon of Kanaplex Does this sound right? Yes, except slightly less than 1/2 spoon of the Kanaplex and I suggest Furan 2 @ about 20% of a packet Carl
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Post by deeice on Apr 9, 2016 7:01:34 GMT -5
Before doing any baths like you suggested I decided to give my 2 goldfish a rest from all the in tank meds I had tried unsuccessfully. I received the medicated wonder shell and added that to the tank. I got all my water parameters back to normal. Actually the only thing that got a little out of whack was my ammonia level which only went up to .25 while treating with meds. I used a little Tetra Safe Start Plus after a 25% WC and get my ammonia back to 0 in a couple of days. After reading the article on medications again (on your site) I was thinking of treating my tank with a combo of Kanaplex & Furan 2. I used each med separately when treating my fish for the Septicemia. Do you think this is worth a try or do you still think I should proceed with this treatment using baths? If I do use in tank should I do water changes every other day since Kanaplex is dosed every 2 days while Furan is daily?
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Post by deeice on Apr 9, 2016 7:07:39 GMT -5
P.S. My pH is on the high side - about 8.2 and I've read that Furan 2 is more effective at lower pH. Do you think this will effect the treatment using with Kanaplex?
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Post by Carl on Apr 9, 2016 10:19:57 GMT -5
I agree with the rest for now with in tank treatments. Did you add the Medicated Wonder Shell?
And yes the higher pH will lower the effectiveness of Furan 2 (Triple Sulfa is more effective at a higher pH)
Carl
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Post by deeice on Apr 9, 2016 10:58:37 GMT -5
Yes I have medicated wonder shell in tank. So you think I should do a combination of Kanaplex and Triple Sulfa instead of using the Furan 2 based on my high ph water? I use both at full dose together right? Should I do a 25% WC each day or every other day before adding meds? Only asking since Kanaplex needs to be dosed every 2 days instead of daily like Triple Sulfa. Thanks for all your help.
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Post by Carl on Apr 9, 2016 12:32:47 GMT -5
Yes I have medicated wonder shell in tank. So you think I should do a combination of Kanaplex and Triple Sulfa instead of using the Furan 2 based on my high ph water? I use both at full dose together right? Should I do a 25% WC each day or every other day before adding meds? Only asking since Kanaplex needs to be dosed every 2 days instead of daily like Triple Sulfa. Thanks for all your help. The use of Triple Sulfa might be a good idea, although they each work differently. At double dose in a bath, the affect of ph on Furan 2 is going to be much more negligible Since these are being used in a bath, the every day or other other day dosing that is meant for "in tank" use does not apply. If you have the medicated wonder shell in the tank, I would not perform a water change until finished so as to not dilute the meds too much Carl
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Post by deeice on May 16, 2016 19:43:52 GMT -5
Still dealing with Bacterial Septicemia with my goldfish but have a new question. I know one of the best meds for this infection is Kanamycin. In the past I used Seachem's Kanaplex which hasn't helped at all. After reading the instructions again I see Kanaplex is a blended medication - not 100% pure. Kanaplex ingredients are listed as:
kanamycin sulfate (32%) Inactive ingredients: excipients (68%)
I'm wondering if I might have more success using a Kanamycin Sulfate powder that is 100% pure?
Is it possible the Kanaplex just isn't strong enough?
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Post by Carl on May 17, 2016 9:06:12 GMT -5
From our SeaChem Page:
Kanamycin is often not as effective for stubborn gram negative infections unless combined with Nitrofurazone. These twp products combined forma synergistic treatment from both my experience as well as other documentation.
This said, there is no guarantee with any treatment, as we know with human treatments as well. Environmental conditions are a major player too, as I have witnessed MANY times where one treatment will work well, while in a very similar problem total failure. sometimes this failure would be due to very obvious environmental factors, while other times the explanation is not readily forthcoming.
Some major environmental factors:
*Feeding *Water changes *Filtration quality *water quality (including Redox) *Use of level one sterilization *Age of fish as well as genetics
Carl
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Post by deeice on May 17, 2016 10:25:03 GMT -5
I saw a product called Spectrogram sold on Ebay. It's a blended Kanamycin Sulfate and Nitrofurazone medication by Aquatronics. Based on your suggestions of combining these 2 meds thought this may be a good product to use. Are you familiar with this company?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on May 17, 2016 11:55:32 GMT -5
I saw a product called Spectrogram sold on Ebay. It's a blended Kanamycin Sulfate and Nitrofurazone medication by Aquatronics. Based on your suggestions of combining these 2 meds thought this may be a good product to use. Are you familiar with this company? Carl has info on this product. He's a fan... www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html#aquatronics
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Post by Carl on May 17, 2016 13:53:14 GMT -5
I saw a product called Spectrogram sold on Ebay. It's a blended Kanamycin Sulfate and Nitrofurazone medication by Aquatronics. Based on your suggestions of combining these 2 meds thought this may be a good product to use. Are you familiar with this company? Carl has info on this product. He's a fan... www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html#aquatronicsAs Devon noted, I have used that product for years, however it has not been made since 2004, so this is no longer fresh product Please give the article link Devon provided a read, as this goes into detail too. Carl
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