Disastrous Water Change: Please Help: Fish Dying

[sdboers]

Folks,
  My son just did a 50% water change on his tank and within 10 minutes the fish started showing signs of distress and dying off.  At the moment he has lost a juvie venustus, 2 pictus cats, a demasoni, and a yellow lab.  This is now the second water change where this has happened.  The first time it happened, I put it down to a careless temperature mismatch.  That isn't the case here, and I question whether it was the case the first time around either.  I really need some help here to figure out what is going on, or this type of scenario makes keeping fish in the house a non starter.

Details of the water change:
 - siphoned off about 50% of the water - using a gravel vacuum
 - replenished with tap water (we are on a well - important point - more about that later)
 - added the requisite amount of Prime from SeaChem

Details on the symptoms:
 - Almost all of the fish are showing signs of distress
 - Colours are faded
 - Breathing is rapid
 - Most are close to or resting on the bottom
 - Some lay over on their side and occassionally right themselves
 - Symptoms were literally within 10 mins of the water change

Details of the water:
 - Our well water is terrible.  Sulfur, Iron and iron bacteria to the point that untreated water is orange - looking a lot like iced tea.  We have a substantial water treatment system in the house that I fear is the cause here.  Allow me to describe the system in some detail.

  - Untreated well water is pumped to two holding tanks (120 gallons each)
  - On the way to the holding tanks the water is injected with small quantities of Alum (food grade) and Chlorine.
  - In the holding tanks, the chlorine oxidizes the pollutants and the Alum helps it settle out of solution to the bottom
  - Each night the tanks empty out the bottom for 60 second getting rid of any sediment
  - Clean water is drawn off the top of these tanks for the rest of the house
  - After getting drawn off the tops of the tanks, the water goes through a sediment filter to  catch any remaining sediment
  - Water then goes through a carbon filter to neutralize any remaining chlorine (shouldn't really be any left anyway)
  - Water then goes through a water softener before making its way to the rest of the house

Water was tested prior to the water change and indicated .1 ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, 40 ppm nitrate.  Thus the water change for nitrates.

I'm sure there are other details needed - please ask away and I will supply any details I can.  I really need some help here...    If needed I have test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, GH and KH.

Sean.


Sean.

[goldenpuon]

Sorry to hear this. It sounds like your water is quite bad, but that you are putting a lot of effort into making it suitable for your fish.

What are the parameters of your well water prior to being filtered and after including PH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? A vast difference in PH of your well water and tank water could be the cause.

In the filtering process, are there any contaminants (I.e. bleach, paint, soap) that could have been brought into the water?

What were your tank parameters after the water change including PH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? Also, if you have the PH of the water before the water change, that would be helpful too.

For testing the water before it is filtered, you may want to let the well water sit for a bit to "gas out" before testing too. (I am not 100% letting it sit for a little helps, but it wouldn't hurt).

If you have another water source, I would definitely recommend using it next time you do a water change until you figure out what's going on. IF the cause is a foriegn contaminant and not a PH crash or spike, I would recommend you try to do a water change as soon as possible of 25-50%. However, until you know, please do NOT change the water. If the fish are in shock from a rapid change in PH, then changing the water will do them more harm. Either way, darkening the tank may help. Though it won't save terminally ill fish, I have seen it reduce stress in many of my fish if they were ill or stressed and sometimes even get them acting as good as new if they were only mild to moderately stressed.

Do you use RO water? If so, thought it is expensive, this would be a good idea to use for now. If not, you may want to consider it. I caution you though, that even though you keep cichlids and they prefer fairly acidic water, to make sure you add the appropriate amount of minerals/buffers to RO water before adding it. For more info on RO water, please see the below articles.

Do Fish Drink
Aquarium Chemistry

I wish you best of luck and I really hope you find out what is causing this soon. Keep us posted!

Renee

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2014 18:57:08 GMT -5 sdboers said:

Folks,
  My son just did a 50% water change on his tank and within 10 minutes the fish started showing signs of distress and dying off. 

First off, welcome Sean! Very sorry to hear you're having such distressing problems. If there's a bright side though, you've landed in a fantastic place to get the help you need to turn things around.

I was going to suggest posting more details and parameters but I see Goldenpuon has done that already as well as raise some really good considerations.

Can you add some basics like tank size, age ie how cycled is it, what's the normal routine ie size/frequency of water changes? 

Have you been doing water changes the same way as this without problems?

How much water was replaced (gallons not %) and how much PRIME was added?


If this was your normal routine then perhaps this doesn't apply, but one aspect that jumps out at me as troublesome, the use of a household water softener. I'll defer to others here who have much more expertise on the details of this, but in the meantime please have a look at Carl 'a article on americanaquariumproducts.com on CALCIUM GH KH

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

Here is an excerpt as a starter:

Do NOT make the mistake with a freshwater aquarium of using home softener water, as this is creates water totally out of balance with essential electrolytes.  The salt used produces water vastly too high in sodium and this high sodium water will precipitate out ALL ESSENTIAL positive calcium ions.  Adding these minerals back in via Replenish, Wonder Shells, Oolitic sands, etc. will not correct this long term at all as these minerals will continue to be precipitated out by the softened water.

Also do not make the mistake of comparing water softened via a home/office water softener to naturally soft water such as found in the Amazon River, the chemistry is not at all the same.

See also:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/basic_aquarium_principles.html
 
Excerpt:

*Caution; Soft Water Use: water that originates from a home or office water softener that uses sodium (salt) should Never be used in any aquarium.
As well use of so-called Drinking Water or 100% Reverse Osmosis water should only be used by a more advance aquarium keeper that knows how to properly re-mineral this water (for those that know how, the water quality will be top notch).
Please read why the use of Soft Water has dangerous implications for your fish:
 USE OF SOFT WATER FOR AQUARIUMS, DANGERS

Here's the link for that:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html#softener


I'm not sure if this  all applies to your system, but you will know when you read these. Hope it helps!

I'm sure you'll get lots of great input on all areas, best of luck and here's to happier days.


Maggie

[sdboers]

Folks,
Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I will read in detail and answer your queries as soon as I am able. I'm out of the house all day today at a fundraising event, but I will be sure to post back this evening. We run a rescue for giant breed dogs, so off to raise money today...

A few quick answers. The tank was a 35-40 gallon tall, although the first time this happened was in my 135 gallon. Tanks are fully cycled with ammonia and nitrites down in the zero range. Only nitrates climb and get knocked down by water changes.

Rather light on answers - but I will do a more thorough job answering questions this evening - I promise.

Sean.

[Deleted]

We run a rescue for giant breed dogs, so off to raise money

NICE, THATS GOOD WORK

Just realized I referred you to the same articles as Goldenpuon.. sorry Renee! .. my second link is different though. . At least you know they are popular articles!

[sdboers]

Folks,

Sorry for the delay - I really appreciate you trying to help me figure this out...  Here are as many answers as I can muster.

Note 1: Test kits are all API liquid kits with the exception of Nitrate which is Nutrafin liquid kit.

Tank parameters before the change:
 - ~35 gallons - 30x12x22
 - Ammonia 0.2ppm
 - Nitrite 0.0 ppm
 - Nitrate 40ppm
 - those are the only parameters he had before the change

Current tank parameters are:
 - Ammonia = 0.25ppm
 - Nitrite = 0.0ppm
 - Nitrate = 30ppm
 - pH = 8.0
 - GH = ~180ppm (10 drops)
 - KH = ~180ppm (10 drops)
 - Note 2: These parameters reflect a second 50% water change done immediately after the fish started dying, but using replacement water from my 135g tank

Well water prior to filtration:
 - Ammonia = 2.0 ppm (eeeek)
 - Nitrite = 0.0 ppm
 - Nitrate = 0.0 ppm
 - pH = 7.4
 - GH = ~300 ppm (16 drops)
 - KH = ~240 ppm (13 drops)

Well water after filtration:
 - Ammonia = 0.25ppm (although I have measured this as high as 1.0ppm previously)
 - Nitrite = 0.0ppm
 - Nitrate = 0.0ppm
 - pH = 7.4
 - GH = ~100 ppm (6 drops)
 - KH = ~240 ppm (13 drops)
 - Note 3: Hmmm - is my water softener really working?

Other answers to questions from the previous posts:
  Q: In the filtering process, are there any contaminants (I.e. bleach, paint, soap) that could have been brought into the water?
  A: No.  The only "contaminants" are deliberately introduced.  Chlorine and Alum both in small quantities.  Liquid pool chlorine is mixed 10:1 with water (10 parts water) into a solution tank and then injected into the water supply as it goes to the holding tanks.  Alum is mixed at 10 cups of powdered Alum to 100 liters of water into a solution tank and is injected into the water at the same time.  The rest of the filtration process is as noted above in my first post.

  Q: Do you use RO water?
  A: No.

  Q: How cycled is the tank?
  A: Fully cycled.  Ammonia and nitrites are always under control.  Nitrate is the only parameter that rises and gets knocked down by water changes.

  Q: Water change routine?
  A: Water changes are weekly with the occasional miss.  Quantity is generally in the 50% range.

  Q: Have you been doing water changes the same way as this without problems?
  A: YES!  That is the part that worries me the most.  He didn't do anything differently than he normally does.  All previous water changes have gone off without a hitch.

  Q: How much water was changed (gallons, not %) and how much Prime was added
  A: Water change would have been approximately 15-18 gallons.  Prime was added directly to the tank at 1/2 tsp (2.5ml)

  Notes about the water softener.  I now bypass the water softener for the water changes on my 135g - my son did not bypass it for his water change.  By the very nature of the softener, there will be times when the water is harder or softer coming out of it depending on depletion of the charged resin.  Did he get it fresh after a recharge and get very soft water?  I don't know.  If it is a possible cause - then I will ensure it is out of the loop for all future changes.  Take a look at my values though without any filtration and let me know if you think the hardness is just too hard...

  I think I got all the questions answered.  Please let me know if you need any more details.

Sean.

[sdboers]

Another quick note to add...

While I say the tank is "fully cycled" and we have "always done water changes this way", this is not meant to imply that we have been running these tanks for years without issue...

For clarity - my sons tank has been running for around 3 months. Water changes were initially done almost daily to keep ammonia down while the tank cycled up.

My tank (135g) came fully established and was moved with all filter media intact - so fully fully cycled and running for years - but not here. I have been running this tank now for about 6 weeks.

Sean.

[parker002]

The fish behavior you described sounds like ammonia or some other kind of poisoning.

[Carl]

Sept 22, 2014 8:53:25 GMT -5 parker002 said:

The fish behavior you described sounds like ammonia or some other kind of poisoning.

I agree, this has many of the earmarks of poisoning, especially with sensitive Pictus Cats.

This said, it could also be a perfect storm of many issues coming together.

As noted, home softener softener water should NEVER be used. However deaths this fast would not be a typical symptom of use, as generally problems are more slow to develop . It may be this combined with a form of pH shock or another contaminent in the water.

I generally recommend 25% water changes, although a 50% water change should not have these results..

I would definitely ensure that you are not using water from the softener and perform a 25% change.
Also consider letting the water sit in another container for a day prior to adding to the tank, then adding it back very slowly (maybe over an hour or two).
This unfortunately does not give you an exact answer of the cause, but at least is a good starting point in solving the problem, even if an exact answer is never forth coming.

Carl

[sdboers]

It does sound like poisoning of some sort - I'm literally afraid to perform a water change...

I'm assuming it couldn't be ammonia poisoning as we treat the water with Prime?

Could it be a form of osmo-gill-whatchamacallit shock? From my test results, I would expect:
- ammonia to go up slightly (but treated by Prime)
- nitrites to remain at zero
- nitrates to come down proportional to the amount of water changed
- pH to come down slightly
- hardness would have come down with the water softener in the loop

Can anyone comment on the use of Alum? I think we all understand chlorine and I believe between the charcoal filter on the house, and the use of Prime, it is fully neutralized. But does Alum have any negative effects? If it did - I would expect to have problems with every water change, but I need to look at all possibilities.

After my first disastrous water change where I lost several fish in a similar manner, I altered my water change regimen to the following:
- Purchased 2 26 gallon garbage pails that I fill with tap water (bypassing the softener). bought 2 submersible heaters and a submersible pump
- Treat each garbage pail with 5 tbsp aquarium salt and 1/2 tsp Prime
- Toss a heater in each bucket to raise temperature from about 67F to 80F - this effectively introduces standing time as well
- Siphon off enough water from the tank via a gravel vacuum to effectively remove floating fish waste
- Insert my home made PVC overflow pipe
- Throw a submersible pump into one of the garbage pails and begin pumping the heated, treated water into the tank
- The first garbage pail essentially replaces everything that was vacuumed off
- The second garbage pail displaces water from the tank via the overflow pipe

To me - this method has the following advantages:
- water is treated before entering the tank
- water is fairly precisely matched to temperature
- water sits for several hours to off gas, acclimate etc.
- water is introduced fairly slowly to the tank (takes about an hour)
- no disruption to tank inhabitants or decor by dumping in large buckets of water
- part of the water change is "replacement" and part of the water change is "dilution"

I have had no issues with my water changes since I employed this method. But my son had no issues with his water changes without using this method until his last water change. So I can't tell if my method is helping - or whether its just dumb luck. With 2 separate and fairly identical disasters I'm unwilling to leave it to chance. I may never get that definitive answer on what happened, but I'll take whatever steps are needed to ensure we don't carelessly slaughter our fishy friends!

Sean.

[sdboers]

Hey Folks,
www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/external/aluminum_toxicity.shtml

At pH values of below 5.5 or above 8, aluminum can become toxic to fish. Some city water plants use aluminum sulfate to make the water clear in color, remove phosphates, and clear turbidity. If your pH is less than 5.5 or more than 8, you may want to check to see if your city uses aluminum sulfate. Some of the aluminum ions may remain in the water. You also want to make sure not to use any aluminum products for water or in the aquarium as aluminum will leech into the water. Some things that slow the leeching are organics in the water, oxidation on the aluminum, or plating on the aluminum, however, you will not know when aluminum could reach toxic levels for your fish. Soft water, as is often used for discus, can speed up the leeching of aluminum into the water.

Aluminum interferes with fish's respiration in the gills and they can die. If your pH falls in either of these two categories, and your city uses aluminum sulfate, you can combat the aluminum through the use of peat moss as it can absorb 80% of dissolved aluminum. This is best done in a holding tank to give the peat moss time to absorb the aluminum before using the water for water changes.

Carbon will also remove some of the aluminum, but there are variables, depending on the quality of carbon and the type of aluminum ion.

The best thing to do is to do is to make sure all water is in the pH range between 5.5 and 8.0 (if you are using water that has been treated with aluminum sulfate). Also make sure not to use aluminum products in the aquarium water (unless it has been specifically made for aquarium use and the finish is not damaged).

Could this be my issue??? But if so - why random as opposed to all the time???

Sean.

[Carl]

Sept 22, 2014 11:27:18 GMT -5 sdboers said:

Hey Folks,
www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/external/aluminum_toxicity.shtml

At pH values of below 5.5 or above 8, aluminum can become toxic to fish. Some city water plants use aluminum sulfate to make the water clear in color, remove phosphates, and clear turbidity. If your pH is less than 5.5 or more than 8, you may want to check to see if your city uses aluminum sulfate. Some of the aluminum ions may remain in the water. You also want to make sure not to use any aluminum products for water or in the aquarium as aluminum will leech into the water. Some things that slow the leeching are organics in the water, oxidation on the aluminum, or plating on the aluminum, however, you will not know when aluminum could reach toxic levels for your fish. Soft water, as is often used for discus, can speed up the leeching of aluminum into the water.

Aluminum interferes with fish's respiration in the gills and they can die. If your pH falls in either of these two categories, and your city uses aluminum sulfate, you can combat the aluminum through the use of peat moss as it can absorb 80% of dissolved aluminum. This is best done in a holding tank to give the peat moss time to absorb the aluminum before using the water for water changes.

Carbon will also remove some of the aluminum, but there are variables, depending on the quality of carbon and the type of aluminum ion.

The best thing to do is to do is to make sure all water is in the pH range between 5.5 and 8.0 (if you are using water that has been treated with aluminum sulfate). Also make sure not to use aluminum products in the aquarium water (unless it has been specifically made for aquarium use and the finish is not damaged).

Could this be my issue??? But if so - why random as opposed to all the time???

Sean.

I would not rule this out, however based on your pH, this seems somewhat doubtful.

I an also state that I used a product from what was probably the best aquarium/pond pharmaceutical company before they went out of business almost 10 years ago; "Aquatronics", for water clarification. This product contained aluminum salts and while I did not use it with any regularity as it was not as it was not as strong as potassium permanganate based products also meant for water clarification, I NEVER had a loss of fish from this, but then my pH never fell out of the parameters you quoted from this article.

Generally metals are best removed with poly pads. EDTA, or possibly with SeaChem Cuprisorb

Carbon is limited in its ability to remove metals.

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/10/activated-carbon.html

Since you employed a difference method for water changes with no problems, I would go with this for your son's tank too

Carl

[sdboers]

Thanks. I'm still looking for that definitive answer although I think you're right - I may not find it. I will continue to be cautious about water changes - but I am understandably quite gun shy...

At risk of going completely overboard - I've also been reading up on "continuous water changes". Essentially a drip system that introduces fresh water to the tank at a controlled rate - say 1 gph, with the excess being pushed out via an overflow. It would be easy to further refine this and add an RO system to the infeed. I surmise you would have to periodically re-balance the water for mineral depletion. Unfortunately, this would still leave the water softener in play unless I plumbed a line in prior to that particular device.

So many thoughts - so little time - so few dollars...

Unless anyone has any flashes of brilliance, it feels like we've answered this as best we can for the time being. I will continue to research, continue to do cautious water changes, and might even cross my fingers a little. I will report back if I find anything, or experience any other symptoms.

Thanks everyone.
Sean.

[Carl]

At risk of going completely overboard - I've also been reading up on "continuous water changes". Essentially a drip system that introduces fresh water to the tank at a controlled rate - say 1 gph, with the excess being pushed out via an overflow. It would be easy to further refine this and add an RO system to the infeed. I surmise you would have to periodically re-balance the water for mineral depletion. Unfortunately, this would still leave the water softener in play unless I plumbed a line in prior to that particular device.

This is a workable method, which I address in the "Aquarium Cleaning" article.

I would strongly urge that if used that you bypass the softener and use water from a stored drum.

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html#water_change_methods

Carl

[sdboers]

Good lord Carl... Is there anything you HAVEN'T written an article on??? Thanks so much. More reading for Sean!

Sean.

[Ameenah]

Frightening that this water is also being used by your family. Has anyone in your family been ill since moving to your new home?

[sdboers]

Frightening that this water is also being used by your family. Has anyone in your family been ill since moving to your new home?

Funny you should mention that... I was wondering where the third arm and sixth toe came from on our daughter...

We moved in over 15 years ago and have had the water tested a few times. First time was part of the conditional offer on the home. It is completely potable for human consumption - there is nothing unsafe about it. It does however LOOK awful. With iron, iron bacteria, tannins and dissolved sulfur in the water it will stain all plumbing fixtures over time (sinks, toilets, showers, dishwasher, washer, etc.). The water will also stain clothes in the washing machine over time. It doesn't taste great either - safe or not... Not to mention that orange water would look terrible in an aquarium...

So - along comes a very expensive and rather involved water filtration setup for the home. The reason was not for safety but for the reasons above... Water that tastes good, and doesn't stain our fixtures or clothes.

There is a possibility I could fix all of this by drilling a new well and tapping into a different vein... OR... I could end up being out $5k and having exactly the same water from a different hole in the ground. Thus we opted for the water treatment equipment.

Thanks for your concern - but I'm not dead yet!!

Sean.

[Carl]

Sept 23, 2014 8:27:58 GMT -5 sdboers said:

Frightening that this water is also being used by your family. Has anyone in your family been ill since moving to your new home?

Funny you should mention that... I was wondering where the third arm and sixth toe came from on our daughter...

Sean.

I was thinking this myself!

I like your sense of humor in dealing with this problem.

Joking aside, it does seem to be a concern though, if only for the excess sodium in your drinking water.
You might consider large containers of bottled water?

Carl

[sdboers]

Gotta have a sense of humour! I just have to be careful that my sarcasm comes across as humour instead of rudeness sometimes. I hope it came across the right way! I've written things before that I meant in jest, but it's easy to read the wrong way sometimes. Ameenah - I hope it was taken as humour. Note the Canadian spelling of humour. We're too polite to be intentionally rude...

At the end of the day - I'm more concerned about removing the iron and tannins (orange staining) than I am about soft water. I don't actually keep the softener stocked with salt 100% of the time.

You raise an excellent point about sodium content. I should do some additional research on that. I do have high blood pressure and any sodium I can eliminate from my diet the better.

There is an argument here for doing away with the softener completely... hmmm....

Sean.

[Deleted]

Note: added this Oct 11.


I missed some of the details from the original post (iron not the issue - since well water was filtered etc).... Hope you solved the problem.
...And very glad I did all sorts of searches back in fall 2011 which helped me realize my fish were being "poisoned" by the city water. I will never trust the city water again for use in my display tanks. Out of necessity, I have used city water in my hospital tank for some changes.

Greetings,

I am new to this board.... From what I read, you are using well water? Well water can be high in iron. Have you tested the iron content? Ground water can be high in metals. Are you using a water conditioner that will detox metals?

I too have experienced massive fish deaths after water changes, but that was because of toxic local water supply - safe for humans, but not for fish. If you are concerned about the quality of the water that you put in your tank, I suggest buying RO water (Culligan for instance - I fill five gallon jugs), like I do. I recondition the water with all of the necessary minerals the fish need. I still use a good water conditioner just in case there is any remaining chlorine.