Betta fins

[angelminx]

I was looking at King (my new Betta) while I was setting up the medicated bath for my Ram (with popeye).  They are both in the quarantine tank; the Betta I keep in there to help keep the nitrogen cycle in balance, so I don't have to start it again when ever I need to use that tank.  I keep some ghost shrimp in there to clean up after the Betta. 

Anyway, I noticed that his fins are edged with a "fringe" of black (I didn't notice this before, so) I don't know if this is normal for him, but I don't remember his fins being like that before.  For those of you who have not seen his picture (I'll get something easier to see one of these days), the outer edge of his tail is transparent.  I'm doing an in-tank treatment with Kanaplex, for Rameses, who is also getting twice daily baths, and food soaked with Neoplex.  The baths consist of MB, salt, a little Epsom salt, Kanaplex, and Metro +.  If there IS a problem with King, should I change things up to suit both of them, do a separate bath for him, or just continue with what I'm doing?  I can move the shrimp if I have to.

I've really grown attached to him and hate to have anything happen to him (or to mar his beautiful fins).  Oh, and there's nothing sharp in the tank, or (as far as I know) reflective.  I did hold up a mirror to get him to flare so I could get a good look at his fins, but it's not even kept in the same room.  The tank is "next to the 55G display tank, but is lower and, I presume, far enough away that there's no reflection created between the two tanks.

One other thing, I am concerned about the stability in the tank because it is only a 10G and, at the moment, I am removing  1/2 gallon/day for the baths, and also have to do the water changes between each dose of medication in the tank, thus I have to continually add KH buffer.  Every time I do a water change (adding the buffer at the same time), the pH goes down before it jumps back up by the next day (with out me having done anything else in between).

[angelminx]

I forgot to mention the tank temps.

I have had the heater(s) unplugged for awhile (in both tanks) because it's been so hot here. Yesterday is the 1st day in quite a while that I haven't had to turn the air conditioner on at all The heater in the QT is is a fixed-temp Tetra rated for a 10G, which heats the tank to about 77 degrees. Without the heaters, the 10G has been running between 77 and 79 degrees (in the 55G, with 2 150W Jager heaters, it's been about 78 to 80 degrees--without the heaters plugged in). [In the winter I have to readjust the Jagers from the Spring/Fall settings, because they don't keep the tank as warm then--none of my heaters ever did--luckily the Tetra fixed-temp only occasionally falls below 76 degrees, and when it does, I have an old Accura 1000 that I switch to.]

Sooo--I don't think there's any problems being caused by the temps.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2014 23:33:31 GMT -5 angelminx said:

I was looking at King (my new Betta) while I was setting up the medicated bath for my Ram (with popeye).  They are both in the quarantine tank; the Betta I keep in there to help keep the nitrogen cycle in balance, so I don't have to start it again when ever I need to use that tank.  I keep some ghost shrimp in there to clean up after the Betta. 

Anyway, I noticed that his fins are edged with a "fringe" of black (I didn't notice this before, so) I don't know if this is normal for him, but I don't remember his fins being like that before.  For those of you who have not seen his picture (I'll get something easier to see one of these days), the outer edge of his tail is transparent.  I'm doing an in-tank treatment with Kanaplex, for Rameses, who is also getting twice daily baths, and food soaked with Neoplex.  The baths consist of MB, salt, a little Epsom salt, Kanaplex, and Metro +.  If there IS a problem with King, should I change things up to suit both of them, do a separate bath for him, or just continue with what I'm doing?  I can move the shrimp if I have to.

I'm amazed to hear you have a betta and Ram residing together.. peacefully?. Is it a GB Ram? I only once tried that combo and it took only hours before the Ram went after the betta's fins and he had a case of fin rot that you could almost see advance by the hour. I've heard the black edge effect described as sign of a milder form of fin rot and also as new growth, though in my experience new growth is always a clean transparent edge.

I'll defer to others with more expert knowledge for treatments.. you've got a combo of woes, sounds like.. but I think it would help everyone help you if you're able to post a pic showing the current symptoms.  I just posted to your reply under Questions/Concerns/Water tinged brown by old gravel about how I load my pics, so take a look there. Good luck!

[Carl]

I'm amazed to hear you have a betta and Ram residing together.. peacefully?. Is it a GB Ram? I only once tried that combo and it took only hours before the Ram went after the betta's fins and he had a case of fin rot that you could almost see advance by the hour. I've heard the black edge effect described as sign of a milder form of fin rot and also as new growth, though in my experience new growth is always a clean transparent edge.

Good points!
I would definitely watch for any signs of aggression.

As for the water used for changing, I might suggest preparing this in bulk and storing it in an aerated but closed container, then use this for all water changes- small or large.

I am a bit concerned with too many meds based on the symptoms.

Based on the symptoms, I would not use the Metronidazole for now.
For fin rot, it is the Kanaplex and Furan 2 combination that generally works best (key word is "generally", as MD recently told me nothing is for sure in medicine)

Carl

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2014 10:07:01 GMT -5 Carl said:

For fin rot, it is the Kanaplex and Furan 2 combination that generally works best (key word is "generally", as MD recently told me nothing is for sure in medicine)

Interesting discussion. I've also wondered what's the best way to keep a QT tank ready-to-go. I'm a little hesitant to make it anyone's full-time home, because if you need to medicate or quarantine another, this guy either has to be moved, or stay and be subjected to whatever woes or treatment the incoming guy has.  

Q: If you have your QT tank nicely cycled, can you just keep it going with some weekly fish food (liquid!) and regular water changes?

And speaking of 'generally', is fin rot maybe a symptom vs a disease, meaning what cures it depends on what's causing it, which could be a variety of different bacterias?  That betta I mentioned I successfully treated with the melafix/pimafix combo.. though I believe I now know it would have been the Pimafix that did the deed, and I also have an old pkg from EM tabs I'd kept because I'd written on it at some point FIN ROT!!!!! so although I now that's gram positive and not the usual fix, it must have done the job one time for me to write that.  

[angelminx]

I've just spent an hour or so trying to upload (to the computer) the pictures I just took of King. For some reason they don't want to. I removed the memory card from the reader and put it back into the camera to check that they are there (they were before), and they are. I tried to upload them again, but still nothing.

I've been keeping the ram in a breeder net.  It is (or rather, was, see separate post) a German Blue.  For me it was the other way around  (when I was quarantining an electric blue--that died after a couple of days), the Betta went after the ram.

[Carl]

And speaking of 'generally', is fin rot maybe a symptom vs a disease, meaning what cures it depends on what's causing it, which could be a variety of different bacterias?

Exactly!
Many if not the majority of fish diseases are actually symptoms, as is the case of "Fin Rot"

I point this out in my article about Betta Fin Rot from Aquarium/Pond Answers
"Let me first start out by noting that "Fin Rot" is a generic term that does not define any one disease, rather there are many causes of this Symptom; of which Fin Rot is better described as a symptom with more than one cause.

Often Fin Rot is brought on by injury or ammonia/nitrite poisoning, so when one considers either treating or preventing the symptom of Betta Fin Rot, these are first places to start. As well opportunistic bacteria such as Columnaris, Pseudomonas, or occasionally Aeromonas can result in fin rot (often taking advantage of fish weakened by other causes). See a picture further into this article for a picture of a Betta with Columnaris induced fin rot."

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2011/06/betta-fin-rot.html

Carl

[angelminx]

With the new pics finally uploaded, I'm going to try to attach some of the middle-sized ones and see what happens that way.


    this is the 1st picture I took of King after I first noticed the "problem".  I only attached the one pic so far to see what would happen this time.

[angelminx]

Halfway through adding the next pics my computer kicked me off the site, so I have to start over.

On the last post, the pic uploaded in the middle size (it just won't accept the "original size"), and you can click on it, it just doesn't show up any larger.

 Just so you can (maybe) see something, I'm trying again (again) .   The 1st of the pics is from when I first got him, and the 2nd is from yesterday:


                    








Here's hoping this worked and you can see something.      BTW, I have problems getting clear images so the focus is slightly off (at least while I'm doing this).


Well, I checked it out, and even though I got them to fill up "most" of the screen while working on them, they still don't display any larger.  You can see them better than the smaller "editions" though.

[Carl]

Thanks for the pictures!

While King does not look 100%, from what I can see, his fins look like they are healing.

Because of this, I would not continue to treat him so heavily.

I would either go with an in tank treatment or a bath treatment, which ever you think is causing less stress to King.
Personally a bath is much more direct and better for the aquarium environment, but it can also be more stressful on the fish (usually only if done incorrectly).
That said as per stress, often stress from handling the fish gets a bad rap that is not fair, as I have given 100s if not 1000s of fish baths over the years. When fish die after the bath, it is usually because the fish was so sick, it was already going to die anyway.
As an anecdotal observation, I been trout fishing in the past and have caught fish that already have hooks/lines in their mouth, yet still with this trauma decided to go after another "meal"

Carl

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2014 18:42:49 GMT -5 Carl said:

And speaking of 'generally', is fin rot maybe a symptom vs a disease, meaning what cures it depends on what's causing it, which could be a variety of different bacterias?

Exactly!
Many if not the majority of fish diseases are actually symptoms, as is the case of "Fin Rot"

I point this out in my article about Betta Fin Rot from Aquarium/Pond Answers
"Let me first start out by noting that "Fin Rot" is a generic term that does not define any one disease, rather there are many causes of this Symptom; of which Fin Rot is better described as a symptom with more than one cause.

Often Fin Rot is brought on by injury or ammonia/nitrite poisoning, so when one considers either treating or preventing the symptom of Betta Fin Rot, these are first places to start. As well opportunistic bacteria such as Columnaris, Pseudomonas, or occasionally Aeromonas can result in fin rot (often taking advantage of fish weakened by other causes). See a picture further into this article for a picture of a Betta with Columnaris induced fin rot."

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2011/06/betta-fin-rot.html

Carl

Honestly I just twigged to this after hearing different treatments suggested, and knowing I've had success with others, but it sounds like I just read that article! At one point but not recently, honest. Ah well, here's to osmosis!  

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2014 2:12:34 GMT -5 angelminx said:

On the last post, the pic uploaded in the middle size (it just won't accept the "original size"), and you can click on it, it just doesn't show up any larger.

They are showing up a bit larger. If the image were bigger they would do more so. 

Photographing fish is difficult, for sure but you can definitely see the black edges in the second pic. 
To me this looks like what I think of as the less aggressive form of fin rot, but I think once Carl sees
it he'll be able to confirm his suggested approach. Lovely fish and good luck

[angelminx]

Thanks, Seapetel! I'll get around to figuring out Photobucket soon, I hope. In the meantime, I'll go with these middle sized pix. I had a heck of a time getting the last few pics I took, because he didn't want to hold still--or if he did, just as the picture was taken, he'd move.

Carl, I never actually saw anything that looked like fin rot in the short time that I've had him, this is why I was wondering if he was just starting it.  Do you think just a medicated wonder shell would be okay, or should I just go ahead with what I call the "Basic-Med Bath" of Kanaplex and Furan 2?




This was the original picture of King flaring (at the fish in the 55G, when I took his 1st pictures).  I'm not sure if you'll be able to see any better with this "before" picture.

[Carl]

I would just add the Medicated Wonder Shell for now.

Carl

[Deleted]

Sept 5, 2014 10:13:03 GMT -5 Carl said:

While King does not look 100%, from what I can see, his fins look like they are healing.

Carl

Interesting aspect.. interpreting the appearance of fins. Thinking it's relevant, don't mean to hijack your conversation but I wondered if you might just comment a bit on the effects to be concerned about.. or not. I'd love to be able to recognize signs of fin rot better as I'm sure we all would...

For instance, in this case it's interesting to me that you see King's fins to be healing, although there are black edges. I have read numerous times that 'black edges' signal fin rot, but I've never had black edges appear on fins even with aggressive FR.  So then, is that info is just wrong, or perhaps there are different kinds of black edges?  I do see that in the second pic the edges although black (which he does not appear to have had in his colouring originally) are also not shorter than pic 1, plus they have that 'new growth' smoothness. 

With my own bettas I see changes and wish I knew which effects are a  'heads up' and which are just signs of innocent damage/healing.

Here's a few pics for reference: 


PIC 1    When fins get tears (or, beginning as small scalloped shaped areas) erode and gradually get this gummy appearance. (can actually see some black tipping there, too)

PIC 2    You bring a betta home whose just spent 3 weeks in a teeny plastic triangle with 3 oz of poopy water.. and his fins are perfect!

PIC 3    You give him great water, food, love, room to swim. A month later his fins look like this!

Attachments:

[Carl]

For instance, in this case it's interesting to me that you see King's fins to be healing, although there are black edges. I have read numerous times that 'black edges' signal fin rot, but I've never had black edges appear on fins even with aggressive FR. So then, is that info is just wrong, or perhaps there are different kinds of black edges? I do see that in the second pic the edges although black (which he does not appear to have had in his colouring originally) are also not shorter than pic 1, plus they have that 'new growth' smoothness.

I would mostly disagree.
I have seen black edges on many fish, often without any tail rot.

That said I would not totally discount this either, as in a few observations (note, not scientific tests), when a lot of black edging is present, I have also found signs of actual fin rot.

In this case I see little.

BTW, I think you sort of answered your own question with your observation unless I misread

Carl

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2014 15:29:46 GMT -5 Carl said:

For instance, in this case it's interesting to me that you see King's fins to be healing, although there are black edges. I have read numerous times that 'black edges' signal fin rot, but I've never had black edges appear on fins even with aggressive FR. So then, is that info is just wrong, or perhaps there are different kinds of black edges? I do see that in the second pic the edges although black (which he does not appear to have had in his colouring originally) are also not shorter than pic 1, plus they have that 'new growth' smoothness.

I would mostly disagree.
sorry, I must have been confusing, I wasn't stating any opinion at all

I have seen black edges on many fish, often without any tail rot....
black edges could be a fish's natural colouring, if that's what you mean... I was never referring to that

...as in a few observations when a lot of black edging is present, I have also found signs of actual fin rot.

 black edges a sign of something wrong, just not FR?

was asking whether you consider black edges (not the fish's natural colouring) a symptom of FR or not  (as I have read that many times and have had cases of FR yet never with that symptom).

In this case I see little.
Ah, ok.. i took it that you did as you were suggesting the treatment for FR, or so I thought.

I was also trying to ask the 'bigger picture' question.. the reason I added the pics.. basically what ARE the symptoms of FR? What effects on the fins are 'innocent' and what effects signify other problems?

Hope that's clearer and sorry for the confusion.

[Carl]

Sorry of I too was not clear.

I meant to disagree that the black edging is a sign of Fin Rot, as I have much more often seen it simply as a change of pigment, sometimes during a healing process, that later turns back to normal coloration.

Your pictures tell a good and educational story as per fin rot identification, so thank you for posting!

As for what I see, I see very little if anything as there is not enough definition in the picture to make a good observation/identification.
However I am giving the benefit of the doubt that angelminx does see something, as she knows her fish better than I and may have seen subtle changes that concern her.


Carl

[angelminx]

I've only recently heard (somewhere) about black-edged fins signaling fin rot. That's why I brought it up when I noticed it (since I hadn't NOTICED it before). [BTW, how do you italicize a word when you want to emphasize something? I've only done it accidentally before, and don't know what I did to make it happen.] I just want to be on the safe side. I haven't really noticed any change since I 1st mentioned it.

I'll continue with the full treatment of MWS; if my SAEs come in in the meantime, do I make any changes to the MWS regime, or just continue as I am? I don't remember if you said they work as a preventative or not.

As a point of interest, when I added the MWS to the quarantine tank, the Ghost Shrimp immediately rushed over to investigate. They have showed no signs of any effect from it.

[angelminx]

One more thing I meant to mention. King does Not like to be netted up (puts up a bit of a struggle while in the net), but never really tries to get away from the net. It's like that every time. Either he has a short memory, or is a little on the dim side .  Either way, I don't think the stress of it is too much of a problem for him.  BUT, he's not getting baths right now anyway, so it doesn't really matter.