kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 23, 2014 16:40:44 GMT -5
Thanks Carl- To respond to a couple of the items you brought up: 1)Ok on the ammonia, and the Prime eventually knocked back to 0 on the Ammonia Alert disk. 2)My tap is usually on the high side- around 7.8-8.0, so the 50% back in was high (except for the 6 gal RO). I get now that the RO might dilute my KH down but not PH, even at 6 gallon to 60 total (10% RO in tank). 3)The buffers did bring KH up, and I did that before the change after reading NOT to do a large change if KH is less than 50ppm, so when it read 40-60, I based my "add amount" to raise it by 50ppm (2.8dkh)which it did and a little more. Now at 120 but staying there-even today. 4)I used this WC opportunity to remove that column structure and de-algae it with the 10-1 bleach soak for 10-15min, then 5ml Prime (for 50gal) into the 15 gal trash can I was soaking in after blasting with hose and scrub brush all black off. Then did that process 3x as de-chlor / de-bleach soak. 5) While it was out, in removing the columns, I was able to vacuum gravel more thoroughly. I had previously tipped on its side to get under it after reading about the mulm that hides under ornaments, so it wasn't super dirty. But the gravel is clean. 6) While I know the sponge isn't seeded yet, the Matrix media (almost 500ml btwn two cartridges) was put in Sept 16, along with the 100ml of Purigen at the same time- both which have been in there untouched, except I checked the Purigen to see if dark yet, which its just starting to change. I also added one of the large Algone packets at this recent change- was going thru two small ones in about 1.5-2 weeks. 7) I didn't really do anything with HOB filter (emperor) other than hand rinse off large waste and flush a little in about 1 gal of tap with about 4-5 drops of Prime so don't think I lost beneficial bacteria there. I also did that a few days prior to water change. 8) I guess the mystery is really "what actually is my PH"? the strips say 7.6 ish on API strip, 7.2 on Tetra, yet fairly dark blue (over 7.6) liquid in API liquid test (poss old reagent), and super dark red (over 8.2)on Seachem PH disk. Based on Devon's thoughts, if it IS that high and the strips are off reading low, could that be why it seems like no bio filter action on De-nitrification and no reduction in nitrates since mid july? Do I risk running it (poss)too low by taking the higher PH numbers and addressing that- knowing that if its 8.2 or higher, will be worse than dropping from 7.6 to 7.0 or so? And so far, my KH is stable at 120 still.
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Post by Carl on Oct 23, 2014 18:03:14 GMT -5
Addressing your pH first, since stability is what is important and your KH is staying stable, I would not be overly concerned here. As long as one test kit is reading 7.4 and another 7.8, but both are staying stable at these numbers I would say "mission accomplished" As to nitrate, be careful about too much algae removal unless on live plants, as any green algae is removing your nitrates, so if a lot is removed, your tanks ability to deal with nitrates are are also compromised. Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.htmlThe Emperor filter is also a potential issue, as this is the one filter I found drove up nitrates more than any other. Unfortunately when I had the ability to do some good controlled tests as to why (due to many clients with these filters), I had to move to Oregon, so this test was never done. So I can only make educated guesses, and my educated guess would be these bio-wheels being additionally moved by the spray bar unlike other ML Penguin filters with bio wheels, further "over grows" nitrifying bacteria without any corresponding de-nitrifying bacteria. So maybe remove the spray bars? Carl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 23, 2014 18:29:21 GMT -5
So, if I hear you correct, my lowest test says 7.4 and my highest says 8.2+. As long as one of them is down there, give it time? The algae I was removing was the BBA algae from earlier pics. I did not, however, scrub walls or any tank surface. I did clean the under glass of some green and a bunch of calcium build up since the glass was out.
SO the Emperor is a "nitrate factory" because of the spray bars spraying the bio-wheels? When you say remove bar, pull them completely out? or just spray down and remove bio wheels? (note: the wheels don't turn except by the spray).
And if Im understanding your articles on the subject, better to keep an eye on a stable KH, regardless of PH number, and if KH stays the same, then as long as PH number doesn't make sudden or even progressive trends in either direction? Im good for now?
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 23, 2014 20:21:37 GMT -5
I should mention also that the bulb I switched to a few weeks ago (that I found in a closet) started a slight dimming in the center. I did pick up a new T-8, made by Coralife and its listed as a 10,000 k daylight lamp. I tried to compare the picture of its spectrum to those listed on AAP site under lighting, and the downside I see is probably too high of spike of green. But at least it has more red in it at 620 nm, with not much blue.
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Post by Carl on Oct 24, 2014 9:15:38 GMT -5
Yes, these are definitely nitrate factories. Personally I really dislike this HOB filter more than any I have ever used Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/do-bio-wheels-really-work.htmlI would suggest removal of one spray bar at a time which will disable one bio wheel at a time, then make up with other filters such as a Sponge Filter or FSB Filter (preferably run with NPX Bioplastics) Yes, monitor & control KH and simply pick and watch ONE pH test This 10K light should be OK, which model Coralife lamp was it? Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 24, 2014 17:44:12 GMT -5
This was written on my tank thread for you Kevin. Just making sure you see it.
"I used the pH alert once quite a while ago, but I think it was probably fairly old when I got it, because it never read correctly--always way off compared to the API test kits. Let me know how yours works, Kevin, I'm usually quite happy with Seachem products.
Angelminx"
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 24, 2014 22:02:30 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll message her back in appreciation. And thanks for passing on Devon.
Carl, the lamp is an AF112 Coralife- 48", 32 watt
I did employ the sponge filter last mon. SHould I see things in its immediate vicinity (ie Spirulina 20) drawn right to it? There are a lot of bubbles going up tube, and top of tube is approx 1" or so below water surface. when lifted it above, there is obvious flow. Fishy has of course dumped a bunch of gravel on top of the sponge and I had to pinch it into corner with orn bubbler. Does the fact I have a bubble stream near the tube detract from its efficiency?
I did take some pics and 10 sec video if helpful? I re-read about the tests for flow but not sure how to get metheline blue next to sponge? I'll re-read in meantime.
Got it on removing one at a time. If I pull the spray tube out, vs angling spray straight down and just removing wheel, water still comes out from center. Is this still providing water column (if thats what thats called) because I have the Matrix media, carbon/filter media, Purigen and Algone all in the filter slots in back, and want that to keep working- until I change out the whole thing. I guess the main question is: is it the wheels or the effect of the spray bars that causes the "overgrowth" of nitrifying bacteria?
Last- would you guys prefer some of these questions be under different topics for others benefit? Its just easier for me to back on our conversations for info but Im willing if you prefer that?
Thanks, Kevin
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Post by Carl on Oct 25, 2014 11:52:22 GMT -5
OK, this is a reasonable good lamp. The only negative is the more blue higher kelvin over a 6500K will tend to grow more green algae. But it definitely is no worse as per Cyanbacteria. ANY well functioning filter should be drawing food, debris, etc toward the filter. Having a bubble stream from another device will only further create a current to pull debris toward the filter, so this is a plus. Just make to regularly rinse the sponge in dechlorinated or used tank water Sure! It is the wheels that cause the over growth, but the spray bars make them even more of a problem over the standard bio-wheels propelled by just the water current Yes, as the top categories get more readership. However this is still OK Carl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 25, 2014 18:40:12 GMT -5
Ok thank you. Might be hard to follow what I put where, and I didn't want to start several threads. I will turn up flow on sponge, I think it may not be drawing well, since food floats around it even within 1-2" and not sucked onto side. Especially if it becomes the primary filter and the HOB it just a vessel to hold the other media for bio filter, with minor mechanical (as you said, the only redeeming quality was a fairly tight fitting cartridge with little blow by). I'll see what I can do on pics.
I pulled out one wheel, and removed one bar. Maybe this will actually increase filter flow since its free-flowing vs spraying out little holes- at least one one side. SHould I pull the second in a week? How soon to do first rinse on sponge? And is it beneficial to do a "new tank" program with Stability?
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 25, 2014 19:16:20 GMT -5
I don't remember how I put pics on the thread. I'll keep playing with it, and prob shoot a note to Devon
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Post by Carl on Oct 26, 2014 10:57:13 GMT -5
Based on your tanks history, I would perform the first rinse within two weeks and every week there after. This will also give you a chance to observe how much "junk" the filters have picked up. As for Stability, I prefer to look at this as a Nitrogen Cycle Aid, so I recommend using it accordingly when ammonia and nitrite issues arise, when over feeding occurs, or when the tank simply seems to have more mulm build up than normal. Product Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stabilityCarl
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Post by Ameenah on Oct 26, 2014 12:08:18 GMT -5
Hi Kevin
Wow, still having issues with the water. I thought I would go outside the box with a few questions: 1- do you use spray room air fresheners, pestacides even outdoors, or other sprays - even medication in IPPB Machines (or whatever is used for lung disorders these days). If so, stop - keep using your IPPB Machine but use it in a different part of your house. Spray anythings will get into your fish tank water. 2- do you use a "glass cleaner" on the outside of your tank? If so, stop. Cleaning chemicals will leach into the fish tank water 3- do you fill your fish tank with a garden hose? If so, stop. There are a plithora of bad things inside garden hoses that will get into your tank water 4- do you fill your tank with cold tap water, or warm? Cooler water holds more gas than warm. Cooler water therefore releases more gases as it heats up, and yep those gases are in yout tank water. The screen in a faucet can also increase the amount of gases in your water.
Food for thought for what its worth. I hope something clicks soon for you and your fishy.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 26, 2014 15:04:12 GMT -5
Thanks Ameenah Good thoughts. Not sure what a IPPB is, but no meds go into my concentrator. Its just room air concentrated to 92%+ of 02 out to a cannula. Because of respiratory issues, no colognes, room spray candles or even not fireplace and mostly organic chems- except maybe in kit. Yes I do/have used glass cleaner- good one, totally guilty of that. Should switch to vinegar prob. No hose, had that discussion with Carl, used it to help drain last major chg, but had shut off and reg vac tubing attached first so no backflow. I use digital thermometer from his tank in a fish only bucket to fill from tap so I can match 79.5-80.2 temp to fill. Didn't know on gases- smart. Have read about the "gas out" on testing tho so makes sense. Nitrates aren't hiding under gravel or ornaments, and still using a bunch of media to draw it out. Only thing left that I haven't done is pull off all HOB filter assembly, and while throwing cartridges etc into used aquarium water, disassemble impeller, flow tubes, and reservoirs to clean out the bottom of basins etc. Unless there's junk in there, I don't really have mulm build up thats visible elsewhere. Thank you for those ideas, appreciate you giving it thought. Im open to whatever you got.
Carl- I changed the spray bar again. It was really loud to let it free flow and just dump on tray before running over lip into tank. I put bars back on, removed second wheel (since thats where overgrowth is) and spun spray direction towards back of reservoir so water has to go thru filter before into tank. Wondering if this is beneficial or problematic?
I posted thread in "updates" about pics, but I have new one where I have switched air pumps to a larger one for sponge. Now with the top of tube approx 1-2" below water level, the out-flow goes about one inch ABOVE water line, and riser tube is white with bubbles. Yet Im not seeing the sponge suck much better. A little piece of spirulina 20 drifted near it (inch or so) and hit gravel below. Am I missing something? Doesn't the stone diffuser INCREASE suction?
Sorry this seems to be an ongoing issue. Hate to be needy. Thanks guys.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 26, 2014 15:39:59 GMT -5
This is the placement of #5 sponge in tank, with the gravel he keeps spitting on it, The second is the water line showing flow pushing above it by about 3/4-1" I don't think clip shows as much beneficial stuff. Let me know if I need to show something better. Thx, Kevin Attachments:
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Post by Carl on Oct 26, 2014 17:03:32 GMT -5
This is actually probably a better idea than what I said, so I would go with this From my experience, your Sponge Filter placement looks great. One thought is to add another #5 sponge filter, but this time use a PRO for higher flow. Having both types of sponge material can often work quite well in aquariums, especially larger ones with larger fish. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.html#sponge5proCarl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 26, 2014 20:55:09 GMT -5
On the same stack? I didn't get a double stack thing but if I can put a Pro 5 on same one, I'm guessing you think by the pic there is enough flow?
Can I do one reg and one pro on same or do I need to have two separate?
Kevin
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Post by Ameenah on Oct 27, 2014 1:57:22 GMT -5
Hi Kevin
Ah ha glass cleaner leaching into your tank. Yes do change to a diluted white vinegar and water solution. I am not sure how long it will take for all the glass cleaner to "cycle through" your tank. But I am sure that once it is completely gone your water parameters will be much better.
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Post by Carl on Oct 27, 2014 11:45:17 GMT -5
On the same stack? I didn't get a double stack thing but if I can put a Pro 5 on same one, I'm guessing you think by the pic there is enough flow? Can I do one reg and one pro on same or do I need to have two separate? Kevin The problem with combining on the same stack (which can be done and is essentially what the ATI Hydro Pond #2 is), is that water will follow the path of least resistance which would be the PRO sponge and so the regular sponge would get under utilized. Better, would be two separate Sponge filters. Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 28, 2014 10:20:44 GMT -5
Also to answer you question Kevin. It's typical for a Hydro Sponge to have a very gentle flow about it. You wont see anything being drawn to it, but more flow around it. This is because the air pump is pushing water out, not in. This is normal and working just fine.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 28, 2014 15:40:53 GMT -5
Makes sense. Not sure I have room for two sponge set-ups, especially while still using the HOB as a housing for carbon and filter mesh, Matrix, Algone and Purigen. And he likes the columns in there, otherwise he has nothing hide in and around. I have another week before rinsing where I can see how much it collected; maybe its picked up a lot and its just not visible. Otherwise, it sounds like the #5 Pro would pick up more, based on the amount of flow Im currently producing? Will that create a "better" biological filter?
Maybe Im getting confused, but the purpose of the sponge is to create more porous area for beneficial bacteria- which is "nitrifying bacteria"? But in the nitrogen cycle, and similar to the recent issue of having "over-growth" as result of the bio-wheels, wouldn't this create even more bacteria to cycle through the ammonia, then nitrites, which then becomes (yet more) nitrates? Or is the collection-then-rinse actually get rid of more "pre-cycle" waste so as to not even enter the nitrogen cycle?
Or am I confusing "nitrifying" (aerobic?) bacteria with "denitrifying" (anaerobic-or 'without oxygen') bacteria?
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