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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 11, 2014 15:10:43 GMT -5
Glad to read he is active and healing. My guess would be the wonder shell for his behavior. They advise the WS to give the fish more "pep". I wonder if his floating down and swimming us is part of this too. I personal have not seen this with your type of fish, but I have seem similar with other fish.
The nitrates are a difficult one. I would try the water change and with new filters or trying to seed new filters, this can take some time. Like 6-8 weeks. I think it's been like 3-4. Time will tell on this one.
The purigen is to be recharge whenever the become darker in appearance. It can vary.
Great about the acid buffer.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 15, 2014 17:27:03 GMT -5
Got a weird one for you guys- Is it odd (or bad) for my fish to bite at and pick up and swim with the 1/3 chunk of large wondershell? He seems like he's playing with it, but he also nips at it. Is it indicative of being low in calcium or other minerals or just another oddity of this fish?
Thanks, Kevin
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 15, 2014 18:04:40 GMT -5
Got a weird one for you guys- Is it odd (or bad) for my fish to bite at and pick up and swim with the 1/3 chunk of large wondershell? He seems like he's playing with it, but he also nips at it. Is it indicative of being low in calcium or other minerals or just another oddity of this fish? Thanks, Kevin Not too weird. Just the fish being a fish. Not a sign of low anything. Now teach him to fetch
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 15, 2014 20:27:19 GMT -5
He does!! I just have to stick my Eheim in there (or any other type of stick) and he's all over it. Like moving the magnetic glass block, totally attacks it. Thanks Devon.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 18, 2014 17:57:07 GMT -5
Ok, so I don't screw anything up here... so I have my new sponge filter: 1) Does that need seeded before setting up? or by having it as a second filter to the HOB mean I can just go for it? 2) In getting rid of nitrates, as we've discussed- check my math: - 65 gal tank, a) I remove 60% or 39 gallon b) so to only go back to 80%, Im putting 26 gallon back in (for total tank of 52 gal) c) now seems best time to do RO, so if doing a 25% RO on my refill amt, then I'd put 6.5 of RO water and 19.5 of regular?
ANd since thats a lot of buckets, is it recommended to a) add prime to tank for full amt of back fill, then add water (if I can use a hose) or add 3 drops to each 3 gallon bucket to treat before going into tank? And the same question for adding Seachem Stability? b) if adding back 6.5 of RO, do I need to add the replenish to a bucket, mix, then put in tank?
And last, if Im planning on using Seachem Alkaline buffer, (which I never have- but my KH has still been dropping-now at about 40-60) should I wait until all this other stuff is in, give it a day or so, then check numbers and determine amt of buffer to slightly move KH and PH?
Then to go back on nitrates, suggested was to do another 50% change--is that like a week later? or a day or two? And will I do the same process of the RO and replenish additives?
Sorry, I know-lots of questions in one block, just don't want to have to undo because I did it wrong.
Thanks guys, Kevin
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Post by Carl on Oct 18, 2014 19:11:18 GMT -5
Your math looks good unless I am missing something. As for the use of Prime or other water conditioners, there is not a exact correct way to use. You could only add just enough for the tap water and be OK. My personal preference for a tank such as yours would be to add a full tank dose, but in increments as the tap water is added. In other words add about 1/2 the dose as you start filling and 1/4 about half way through the filling and then another 1/4 just as you finsih. Part of my reason is that Prime, Amquel, Start Right, etc. are quickly dissipated and broken down, so this makes sure that you are constantly breaking down chlorine and keeping a stress reducing Redox environment Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.htmlI would add Stability just after finishing the water change. Make sure if you have a UV Sterilizer to turn it off for about 2 hours I recommend adding the Alkaline Buffer to the RO portion of water prior to introduction. The difficult part is how much? This will take some experimentation, so start with small amount then if this does not correct the KH enough, add more and note how much for the next water change. I would wait at least a week for the next water change unless the fish s showing stress that make more water changes a necessity. Carl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 19, 2014 15:57:03 GMT -5
Thank you for the quick response. I actually had to put off the work until today. But to get a baseline of water parameters before starting, I was kinda suprised at how my tap water has changed. And because of this, wonder if this changes my additives? In sept: ph 7.8-8, kh 120, gh 150. Today: ph 7.8+, kh 300 !!, gh 225+, and stick seems to show some nitrate- maybe 10-15 if that.
Im guessing to hold off on alkaline buffer to see what the tank stabilizes at after 60% change. I heard you on adding to RO, but fearful of driving up too high (especially since I don't have an acid buffer). ALso, since Im only filling up to 80%, if I end up needing to add buffer, I can put in a couple gallons to mix before adding. (I'll be down 13 gal if Im at 80%).
Since I've never done this large of water change, Im looking for more efficient ways to re-fill. I don't remember reading about using a garden hose, but Im concerned that general rule is drinking out of a hose is now considered NON-POTABLE water (altho we always did it as kids). I suspect because of the bacteria in it (algae, etc). Even if I run a bunch of water thru it, Im not sure if the chlorine in tap is enough to make it clean enough so as not to transfer bad stuff into tank. Any comment on this?
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Post by Carl on Oct 19, 2014 18:57:42 GMT -5
Tap water can vary greatly, even within the same municipality as you found, so your testing was wise. Since you are only using a small amount of RO, I would leave out the Alkaline Buffer for now (you could always add more later) I still recommend the use of Replenish in the RO water. As for hose, garden hoses are not made from virgin rubber and thus are not considered potable (phthalates are often found in the water that passes through garden hoses). That said I have used these for years with no issues. This includes using virgin rubber RV potable water hoses and finding no difference for the aquariums under my care. Does this mean that those saying not to use a garden hose for potable water? No, I am just saying that the the risk is very low for water that quickly passes through. Now on the other hand if water were to sit in the hose or be hot, I would say to definitely use a hose designed for RV use or similar. Here is an article you might find interesting: www.rodalenews.com/drinking-water-garden-hoseCarl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 19, 2014 19:40:37 GMT -5
Good article. Reminds me of one I read in a Consumer Reports mag "ShopSmart", where I read about Phthalates in everything from nail polish, deodorant, hair spray, lotions etc (Sept 2014 issue). As well as formaldehyde and Triclosan. Should have thought about the RV hose- Dad was in RV biz for decades (me too). Great idea. After reading that article, do you feel the metals that might be released via outdoor hose bib would be bound up by our "metal reducers" in the conditioner chems we put in?
On the Seachem alkaline buffer, it indicates on the label that in order to raise pH slowly, to use an acid buffer as well. Is the absence of this acid buffer what causes pH bounce that you discuss often?
Thank for your input. Still working on change, I'll keep you posted.
Kevin
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Post by Carl on Oct 20, 2014 9:14:18 GMT -5
The metal reducers should not be an issue, not enough contact time. While the Acid Buffer can be helpful in stabilizing water when RO or DI is used in larger quantities or in tap water naturally more neutral, I have found that often in well established aquarium, natural acid production can make up for this quite well. Since you have high nitrates, this indicate a high amount of nitrification which produces acids Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.htmlCarl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 21, 2014 1:05:53 GMT -5
Yes, still need to replenish the mineral cations. Once the tap water is cut by RO, I would still use something like a WS or Replenish.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 21, 2014 13:11:26 GMT -5
I did put the Replenish in based on the amount of RO, while leaving the portion of WS that was still in the tank- covering the new tap water. I did the large water change (60%) but had to put more than the 40% back in. The filter wasnt drawing right have water line that low, also where I cut the 18" tube to fit just below the normal water line ended up being above it. It did, however, drop my nitrates to around 60 from the 200 that it was at. Also, I didn't need much of the Alkaline Buffer, it came up from 40 ppm to 120 so Im watching ph to be sure it doesnt bounce, but at this point its around 7.6 so Im happy with the numbers. The gh didn't seem to change much using RO (altho it was only 10% overall at 6.5 gal in 65 gal tank), but may have come back up from the Replenish and on going WS but Im still around 300+ so not supper soft. All in all, pretty happy with change and altho he wasnt happy with all the work being done, he really isn't showing signs of stree now that its done.
I have the new sponge filter going, top of tube is around 1" or so below surface. Seems to be good flow out of the top, so guess the sponge is drawing. Thanks for the help guys. I'll keep you posted.
Kevin
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 21, 2014 16:40:11 GMT -5
Yea! Great news. The nitrate battle is coming to a end! I was able to get my back down by the way. I added NPX Bioplastics to my sand filter. Brought them down from over 160 to around 10 I'm glad all the changes worked out!
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 21, 2014 18:33:07 GMT -5
Love your success on the 40 gallon. Just waiting for a yellow vile! :-) Have you ever found a difference in the results of test strips based on mfg?
Kevin
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 22, 2014 16:06:53 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to sound the alarms, but I may have an issue. After the big water change mon, test strip yesterday (tues) seemed ok (Tetra 5 in 1 strip), so I bought new strips yesterday just to compare and I also bought a little Seachem PH alarm disk for side of tank. I put that in this morning, but after 3 hrs, I just looked and my ammonia alert is in green at .05 (which has been yellow this whole time) and the ph disk read 8.2. Seems like an exponential jump from 7.6 after water change. I just used the new API test strip, and hers are results: GH >180 KH 120 Ph 7.5 Nitrite 0 Nitrate over 200 again It seems weird that the KH seemed to be the same as after change, but PH on disk is so different from PH on strip. I put in 5ml of Prime to reduce ammonia because I felt that was 1st order of business, but not sure if I need to go get something to reduce PH based on disk or watch strips and see if they go up, then lower?? I know I've read PH can be high as long as KH stays stable and not too high as well, but is 8.2 (if thats indeed correct) pushing the highest limit for PH?
And wondering if the ph swing (by disk) is still an after effect from raising the KH with Alkalinity Buffer on mon for the RO water- even tho I didn't use much- Is this normal?
Kevin
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 22, 2014 16:40:06 GMT -5
Love your success on the 40 gallon. Just waiting for a yellow vile! :-) Have you ever found a difference in the results of test strips based on mfg? Kevin Not by mfg, but by different test types. The 5 in 1 by API is different than the liquid kit. I've heard of different mfg. being different, but I haven't used too many brands to know for sure what the difference is.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 22, 2014 16:48:29 GMT -5
Do you see the 8.2 as an emergency to reduce- if indeed thats correct- or should I sit on it and see. The liquid test I have may be old- over 2 yrs- so don't know if reliable. Bottom line- if KH is 120, is PH at 8.2 an issue?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 22, 2014 17:15:31 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to sound the alarms, but I may have an issue. After the big water change mon, test strip yesterday (tues) seemed ok (Tetra 5 in 1 strip), so I bought new strips yesterday just to compare and I also bought a little Seachem PH alarm disk for side of tank. I put that in this morning, but after 3 hrs, I just looked and my ammonia alert is in green at .05 (which has been yellow this whole time) and the ph disk read 8.2. Seems like an exponential jump from 7.6 after water change. I just used the new API test strip, and hers are results: GH >180 KH 120 Ph 7.5 Nitrite 0 Nitrate over 200 again It seems weird that the KH seemed to be the same as after change, but PH on disk is so different from PH on strip. I put in 5ml of Prime to reduce ammonia because I felt that was 1st order of business, but not sure if I need to go get something to reduce PH based on disk or watch strips and see if they go up, then lower?? I know I've read PH can be high as long as KH stays stable and not too high as well, but is 8.2 (if thats indeed correct) pushing the highest limit for PH? And wondering if the ph swing (by disk) is still an after effect from raising the KH with Alkalinity Buffer on mon for the RO water- even tho I didn't use much- Is this normal? Kevin This is unusual one... I'm sorry this is all happening Kevin. What I do know... I've read all over the place, that different test and brands give different results. It's finding one your comfortable with and working with it's readings. I've also heard of where you place the alert test has some degree of what the reading will be, like down in the corner in a dead stop of the tank. Here is what I'm thinking. We really need to know what the parameter are to know how to battle this. I know that if pH is above 8.0, it's can affect Ammonia and the whole cycle down to Nitrates. This could be a reason for your Nitrate battle. There is affect on De-Nitrification, which would have affect on your cycle. That is if your pH is above 8.0... If there was a rise from a lower pH to higher than 8.0 any safe Ammonium (prime converts Ammonia to Ammonium), will convert back to Ammonia. If you don't have strong biological filtration, your filtration would not be able to handle this and this is why you would now have Ammonia in the tank. I wonder why there would be a pH increase. I would test, retest, and test some more to find what you think the pH is. Also test the water source to know what your base line is. This is my best guess as to why there is now suddenly Ammonia. I would also test, retest, and test again Ammonia to know for sure. Prime was a great choice... Alkaline Buffer would raise pH, but shouldn't if there is the addition of Acid buffers or if there is already a good amount of acid producing bio. Being that Nitrates are above 200, you would think there would be acid producing bio. Maybe to much buffer was added, or a little bit lower KH is required for your tank? Like I said, this is a hard one. Making me think and reconfirm what I think I know. I'm wondering if a KH of 120 made your pH climb? Im sorry, I hope this gives some direction or insight. Others might have some idea too. Also having the new sponge filters seed will help. So some time will help this one. If 8.2 continues to be the reading, I would consider a acid buffer, which would then lower pH and I'm thinking would resolve the Ammonia issue.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 22, 2014 17:38:14 GMT -5
Thanks Devon. Im going with the test and re-test. I've been using the same strips the whole time until now. It always showed a little lower than liquid. I used 3 tsp of buffer, split into two applications a few hrs apart. Should have raised KH by 50, which at the time, my KH was 40-60.
I still have the matrix in filter for about 4-5 weeks now. Plus carbon catridges, which got just quick surface rinse to remove large debris in dechor water before water change. No rinse on matrix. Put new sponge in on mon. #5 with about 15" of tube and diffuser. Good flow there.
I don't have separate ammonia test (liquid) so prob best to get that and new ph liquid test to break tie btwn strip and disk. I like your thoughts on the ammonia spike as result of high PH. Guess do re-tests and not jump to add stuff to reduce ph yet.
Thank you so much for getting back so quick.
Kevin
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Post by Carl on Oct 22, 2014 18:35:39 GMT -5
My first thought is your ammonia is not high at all, in fact .05 is well within what would be considered normal and in fact after large water changes, minor swings are not all that unusual. A 60% water change is larger than I normally perform, but I understand why with your high nitrates. With any water change, especially larger one, this alters the chemistry often in subtle way.. The use of RO water also adds a bit of a wrinkle to your aquarium chemistry in the days after a water change. From the Aquarium Chemistry Article; pH Section (this quote is in relation to excessive water changes in an aquarium with little bio filtration): "It is noteworthy that RO water unlike DI water (which means DE-Ionized), may remove most all minerals and carbonates, resulting in a low GH & KH. HOWEVER it DOES NOT alter pH much since many ions are still left after reverse osmosis. The result is a still high pH that never stabilizes as it would normally in a healthy aquarium where by the natural nitrification process would lower pH when little KH is available to buffer (as it would be when RO water is used in full or in part)."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#phWhile this quote does not totally apply to your case, it does make the point that along with the alkaline buffers, the new water is going to likely have a higher pH even if RO water is used (not the case with DI water) Bio processes will slowly bring the pH down, albeit regulated by your KH buffer. Now your nitrate jump back up is the more perplexing issue to me. Since your numbers are something I have rarely seen, especially in an aquarium with just one fish, I have to think we are missing something, including that your bio system is simply not very mature and/or stable. Unfortunately, even Matrix is likely not going to be enough to bring down your nitrate levels even once fully matured. Water changes are usually a short term answer, but even here it seemed to not be enough. I have to still wonder what where this bio load is "hiding" that is providing this much nitrates. Your slight bump in ammonia, while not all that unusual in most aquariums, may also indicate some underlying issues we are missing. The use of NPX Bioplastics is about the most sure way to bring down nitrates, but this also requires the use of a FSB filter Product Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/TwoLittleFishies.html#bioplasticsCarl
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