cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 23, 2014 17:08:37 GMT -5
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 23, 2014 17:15:53 GMT -5
OOPS! Duplicated pics.
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 23, 2014 17:26:53 GMT -5
Hi! I thought you should see this impaction that I removed from Kam at the end of March this year. The end outside her anus is on the left., the rest was inside her.
Thanks for looking!
Attachment Deleted
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on May 24, 2014 12:08:13 GMT -5
Hi Everybody, Kam has been slowly going down hill and the past three days is showing pop-eye on her left eye. She sways her back and goes into a trance like state. She expels a big air bubble from her gills at times. Her fins are quickly getting shorter, and the dorsal fin looks like it's melting. This sweet bettafish looks beat up. She is alert and has a very good appetite. I don't know what to do for her as she has been on large doses of meds recently. I don't know what kind of pain she is in and don't want her to suffer, but she deserves every possible chance. This is so embarrassing: I thought that Kam was a male as per the little cup labeled 'male' when I brought him home from the store. Just a few weeks ago, I thought I saw an oviposter,(mispelled?). Her anus had been impacted previously so I had not seen her ovisposter. Looks like Kam may not be a 'He'... but a 'She'! So now I'm wondering, might the bulges on her sides be impacted from eggs and not a tumor or parasites? The water is a 50/50 RO/tap. Ph-7.8; ammonia-0; trites-0; trates-10+; KH-4/5; GH-6-8. Temp. is 78-80 degrees. I keep a Seachem ammonia alert in her tank and test the water every couple of days for trace amounts of ammonia. I change 25-50% of the tank water every 3/4 days. Change 80% about once a month. I allow the 50/50 water mix and 1/2 a sm. wonder shell with some Replenish and a bubbler and heater to age a couple days before each partial change. I completed a fishless cycle in a 5 gal. tank and when I put one of the sponges and medicine bottle w/Matrix in a 2.5 gal. fishless tank, the darn thing wouldn't get cycled. So I tore the 2.5 tank down for now and put the sponge and Matrix back into the 5 gal with the other sponges and Matrix. I hope these pics are helpful...continued on 2nd page. The 1st pic; do you see the oviposter??? Gods Blessings and Thank You so much. Cheri Hi Cheri, Welcome back. First I will say that your water parameters seem to be much better. The only thing I could think of is maybe trying to go a little bit longer between water changes. I like to try and go about 2 weeks for mine and really only doing about a 20-30% at that. This just keeps your cycle going and allows for water quality to keep building on it's self. It's a little easy on the fish keeper (you) as well. The 5 gallon seems like a better home anyways. That fact that you have a sponge and matrix is great. If you ever what to aid the tank in a cycle, you can pick up something like SeaChem Stability, which is a liquid "good" bacteria. You just put it in each day for like 7 days and just like that, the tank is cycled! Aged (already used) sponges help too. The only thing I can think of for the fishes health is a consent supply of medicated wonder shells. I say this only because we've had some people reported back to us that by using them over and over, the health seemed to improved or at least kept the fish from getting worse. I just don't know what else you can do, cause you are giving Kam a near perfect quality of a home. You are really doing everything you can. Lastly, I'm not sure of the oviposter, if that is the case, also what you removed from Kem. I just have not had experience with these two. Maybe Carl or someone else has. Keep up the good work. Hope the weekend is treating you well.
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on May 24, 2014 15:28:44 GMT -5
Edit here: For the medicated wonder shells, do one medicated then one regular... This could really help. Again, you are doing all that you can. It might be a little late on a full rescue, but you can do what you are doing and keep trying to give the best possible home. One last thought about it is something Carl has done a lot of work on is a UV sterilizer. I only say this because of the proven benefits it has shown, but for your size tanks, it really isn't an option. It's jut worth mentioning and something maybe to consider in your further endeavors.
|
|
|
Post by Carl on May 24, 2014 20:24:01 GMT -5
Cheri; Not too much to add to Devon’s answers. Here are a few thoughts: *Definitely a female (I should have noticed this earlier) *Often these Bettas from PetCo, Walmart, et al are from fish farms such as Poseidon Aquatics that have a lot of in breeding going on; this is especially prevalent with Bettas. What this means is often other than provide the very best water conditions possible, all the meds in the world will only help so much. Improving Redox balance is something that improve the fish immune system, but this too can only go so far with a genetically weak fish Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html*Often these same fish are also sold later in life, this is especially true with females that were used for breeding, and then the unscrupulous breeder forwards them on to the unknowing retailer and eventually fish keeper who ends up with an old fish. Again even the best water conditioners and meds cannot fix age Carl
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 27, 2014 15:03:15 GMT -5
Hi there Carl & Devon,
Thank you both for responding.
Kam still has a good appetite yet this morning when he tied to get his food, big bubbles came out his gills and mouth! After a few tries he was able to gobble the food. He appears more skinny, may be cold as he lays under his heater a lot now. Temps. around 77/80 degrees. One Coralife reads between 78-80 degrees. I'm hesitating to do any sort of medications for Kam. Using any medications just to prolong Kams life, I'm not so sure is fair to put her through. So far, both times she has been on meds, she'll do a little better, and then starts declining once the meds are stopped.
Something similar happened with another betta fish. I kept him on and off meds more times than I have kept Kam on meds. Finally, he just kept getting weaker and I had to make a decision to stop the meds; soon after he died. I don't believe I want to put Kam through a life like that.
I would really like to know the impossible. Did I cause this? Or is it bad genetics? I don't know that I can even afford to get a necropsy once Kam has passed, though I am so curious as to what the bulges inside of her are. I'm not even sure where to look for someone who would necropsy a betta. Any suggestions?
Do you have an article on how to humanely euthanize a fish? Only if I can see that she is in pain or suffering, unable to swim or eat, will this be done to her. What I hope for her is that she can just go to sleep (as a fish does), and her brain and sweet heart stop together.
Devon- The more frequent partial water changes I do for Kam and Kim is that their individual 2.5 gal tanks are not filtered. I think for Kam, the smaller tank will be permanent because he doesn't have much strength left. He did make full use of a 5 gal. last year. I have an extra 2.5 tank that I will again try to cycle, and then Kam can live in a better environment. Kim will go into a 5 gal tank pretty soon but she is still quite small and seems to enjoy the room in the smaller tank.
I'm betta-sitting my neighbors crown tail and OMG he lives in a 3 qt. vase w/plant.
Again, Thank You, Thank you. Cheri
|
|
|
Post by Carl on May 28, 2014 9:37:20 GMT -5
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 28, 2014 9:54:27 GMT -5
Devon,
Regarding the medicated wonder shell... In an unfiltered 2.5 gal tank, how would you use the medicated W/S? 1 sm. or 1/2 sm. and how much and how often should the water be replaced as to not over dose Kam? Then I would alternate with a regular W/S.
Is this something that should be done for all of Kams life; or just a certain duration?
I just don't want to start him on anything, and then cause him more harm by doing something wrong.
I plan to read the references that Carl sent tonight.
Thank you for all your support and knowledge. This should be the only site on the internet...my only go to place...very informative...you guys are great!
Cheri
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 28, 2014 10:05:06 GMT -5
Hi Carl,
I appreciate your suggestions and help regarding who to contact for necropsies.
I wouldn't be able to do it myself on her, or even know what I would be looking at.
I've always liked fish, but I know nothing about water chemistry so I end up doing more harm than good to them. Our water here is sooo awful that the PH is 8.2-8.6. Not something for betta fish. I try to manipulate the water and that is when the harm starts. So...no more fish...
Thank you Carl
Cheri
|
|
|
Post by Carl on May 28, 2014 11:05:19 GMT -5
Cheri; You would use 1 full small Medicated Wonder Shell, as it is not best to break one. Then follow this with a regular small Wonder Shells after the Medicated one dissolves. Then repeat again Please note that while a pH of 8.2-8.6 is not something I would normally recommend for Bettas or many other FW fish, it is other aspects of water chemistry that can affect your fish even more as per our Chemistry article. Often the most simple approach, which I have used many times, is to simply "Cut" the tap water with 25% or more RO, DI, or Drinking water with the results of water that has less carbonates and a lower pH and is much more workable for Bettas and other fish, without having to fuss around with too many chemicals. Of course adding products such as Pillow Moss, Betta Spa, etc can also help further convert the water to what is best for your Betta. Please Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlFrom the Aquarium Chemistry article: "Example: If your tap water is say 8.0 pH with a KH of 200 ppm, the addition of 25% RO or DI water (neutral 7.0 ph, 0 KH) should cut your KH by 25% to 150 KH, and your pH to 7.7. There are many other variables such as substrate, bio load, that makes this not as simple as I would wish this to be for non-advanced aquarium keepers; but for those seeking simple adjustments for community aquariums or basic Discus, Betta, etc. fish keeping, this is still a reasonably stress free simple solution. You may have to experiment some such as using 35% RO water, but once you find a percentage, unless your tap water chemistry changes (which is more common that you may think), your results should then be consistent."Product Resources: *Betta Spa www.americanaquariumproducts.com/NiroxProducts.html#spa*Pillow Moss (aka Frog Moss) www.americanaquariumproducts.com/FrogMoss.htmlCarl
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on May 28, 2014 12:24:18 GMT -5
Hi Carl, I appreciate your suggestions and help regarding who to contact for necropsies. I wouldn't be able to do it myself on her, or even know what I would be looking at. I've always liked fish, but I know nothing about water chemistry so I end up doing more harm than good to them. Our water here is sooo awful that the PH is 8.2-8.6. Not something for betta fish. I try to manipulate the water and that is when the harm starts. So...no more fish... Thank you Carl Cheri Don't give yourself to hard of a time. It's all a learning process and your putting in more effort than most people. From my experience, damage like this takes quite a bit a time in extreme conditions. You seems to have pretty good parameters now and have them pretty good for a while. You just need to make a few adjustments. Adding RO does get a little more complicated, but I think you figured it out. I don't use one. I just use natural buffers and Decholorizers (Prime). I've been having good success. Anyways, if keeping fish is something you enjoy, you shouldn't give up. If your using a sponge filter for the cycle, decholorizers, good materializing, temp, with parameters in check, you will have happy long living fish. UV helps a bit to, but people keep fish without all the time. Best a luck!
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on May 28, 2014 18:06:47 GMT -5
Carl,
Thank you for the info on the medicated wonder shell and the regular wonder shell. I do have one more question...water. Is it necessary to do daily partial water changes or should I just keep on with the 25-50% water changes every three to four days?
I thought I read or heard somewhere that medication can become toxic to the fish if the water is unfiltered, and therefore should be changed out regularly. I sure don't want to do anymore harm, this is why I've hesitated starting the medicated wonder shell.
If regular 100% or partials need to be done please let me know how often, and how much.
Thank you. Cheri
|
|
|
Post by Carl on May 28, 2014 19:01:19 GMT -5
25-50% every fours days is OK to continue with the Medicated Wonder Shells. I would note that if at all possible, adding a filter or some sort of filtration can help so much. In the 90s, I did several experiments with Bettas, all in smaller containers of about 2 gallons (or even less). Those Sponge Filter did best, while even just having a medicine bottle with Matrix or similar improved the over all health when compared to the bowls with nothing done other than water changes. References: *Betta Profiles www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Bettas.html*Matrix (including picture with the container idea for some filtration) www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#matrix*Sponge Filters (such as the Mini which is perfect for Bettas Bowls as small as 1/2 gallon) www.americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.htmlCarl
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on Jun 5, 2014 20:56:42 GMT -5
Hi Carl and Devon,
The high 8.2-8.6 PH is strictly the tap water here. I have been cutting the water 50/50 RO and Tap. The PH has been 7.8 to 8.0. Usually 7.8. I have also added some cut pieces of Asian driftwood.
So sorry that I haven't gotten back sooner. Didn't mean to be rude. As for Kam, he is still the same. Enjoys eating, poo's daily. He is pretty active, though a bit slower getting started in the mornings.
I've not started with the medicated wonder shell or even added the seeded sponges or Matrix to their tanks. I can't just put the seeded sponge or Matrix into the tanks with the bettas.? Wouldn't it have to do a mini cycle? That kind on stress would be to harsh on them. It definitely would be deadly for Kam. Also, I'm still betta-sitting. My neighbor came home Monday, and picked up her mail but left him here. Her granddaughter is here for two weeks so we'll see what happens...I REALLY want to put him into a spare 2.5 gal tank I have, also a spare heater.
You know, when I recently had that spare 2.5 set up with gravel, sponge, and such it actually only held 1.5 gal. water.
If you want to give any info on starting up and keeping a small tank going, I would sure appreciate it. I've always heard running a large tank is easier, but I just don't have that kind of space to even set up two five gal tanks. It's sorta crowded with the two smaller ones and now possibly a third one.
Last Friday, Sarah, our female dog who was recently diagnosed with a rare heart disease, took a terrible turn and we had to euthanize her. I lost my friend. Her brother keeps watch out the window during the day, and constantly going out the doggie door looking for her throughout the night. On walks he continues to smell and looks for her. He lost his litter mate of 13 years. It's still tough...
Thank You both,
Cheri
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 6, 2014 2:26:07 GMT -5
Cheri,
I think by not having a cycled tank, that's not helping. The RO water and heater are good. I think the tank size is ok, just more is a little better just cause it keeps everything a little more consistent. The seeded media would start the cycle and keep it going. That would help for best health. I think it's better than many water changes. And a little less harsh. Even better than a UV sterilizer. For now, you're doing everything you can, the cycle is the next best thing.
I'm not sure about a mini cycle, I'm thinking starting a consent cycle would be better than not having one cause of multiple water changes...?
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jun 6, 2014 10:11:28 GMT -5
I am not clear as to why you are worried about seeding a small sponge filter, Matrix, or even just Volcanic Rock (I think I might be missing a concern?). If seeded in another tank, there is no risk to Kam and as Devon stated having a healthy nitrogen cycle can only help as oscillating ammonia and nitrite levels is not healthy for any fish. Even if not fully seeded (ore at all), this would still be better than controlling ammonia/nitrites with water changes References: *In Depth Nitrogen Cycle Information www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html*Basic Nitrogen Cycle Information www.fishbeginner.info/home/nitrogen-cycle/Product Resources: *Volcanic Rock www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Volcanicrock.html *Matrix www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#matrix*Premium Sponge Filters www.americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.htmlReally maintaining a small aquarium is no different than a larger aquarium, the difference is changes (including problems) happen much more rapidly As well small tanks/aquariums are more difficult to have filter redundancy. Finally, and probably my biggest complaint for tanks under 10 gallons is it usually is not practical to have a true level one UV Sterilizer, as a True level one Sterilizer helps considerably with disease prevention, including Redox. Unfortunately the many UVs pushed by less than honest retailers as capable for small aquariums are UV clarifiers at best and most certainly cannot perform level one UV Sterilization (beware of these sold at retailers such as eBay, Amazon, TruAqua) References: *Freshwater Aquarium Basics www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Basic_Aquarium_Principles.html*UV Sterilization Facts & Information www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.htmlSorry to read this! I know how you feel as we were all heart broken when we had euthanize our Jack Russel two years ago when she had stomach cancer; she was probably the best dog we ever had Carl
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on Jun 6, 2014 22:18:01 GMT -5
Hi Carl and Devon,
Sorry to be unclear. I just finished a post and then didn't send it correctly *UGH*
I have two mini, and 2 #1 sponges, plus two medicine bottles w/Matrix. They are all in a 5 gal. tank that was used in a fishless cycle beginning back in March. So I do have a plethora of seeded and ready to use material. A few pieces of driftwood is in the 5 gal tank also.
I'll be using the two mini sponges and bottles of Matrix for the bettas in their 2.5 gal tanks. I don't know anybody who could use the #1 sponges. ):
So, my concern is that if I add the already seeded sponges into the tanks with the bettas; will this cause the water to go through ammonia and nitrite spikes thus stressing and harming the fish? Also, if there isn't any ammonia in the tanks when I add the sponges will this kill off the good bio bugs in the sponges?
I have read elsewhere in the past that fish should not be in a tank until it has cycled and is established. I am so confused and really appreciate your help!
Is this any clearer? I hope.
Carl, I'm sorry for your families loss of your pet Jack Russell. It is never a decision you want to have to make even though it ends their suffering. They leave such a missing piece in the family; yet the love remains....
Thanks again for all the help. (:
Cheri
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Jun 7, 2014 11:56:09 GMT -5
Hi Carl and Devon, So, my concern is that if I add the already seeded sponges into the tanks with the bettas; will this cause the water to go through ammonia and nitrite spikes thus stressing and harming the fish?
Most definitely not, as the seeded sponges is the most sure way to NEVER have a tank go through the cycling process, unlike every other method of cycling, which is why most pros use this method The only reason to not use this method is the risk of disease transfer (which is very low if using seeded filter media from a well established aquarium with no new fish added for a couple of months) and simply some newbies simply do not have access to seeded filter media From: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html#seasoned"The method of adding “aged” or "seasoned" media is much faster (you still have to take it slow, but this with this method some fish can and should be introduced immediately), and provides all the necessary bacteria, the only negative is adding disease pathogens to your aquarium, but I have rarely encountered this problem. To prevent this transfer of disease pathogens and parasites, only use a media source where no new fish have been added in 30 days, ALL water parameters are good, and if possible has UV Sterilization (although not necessary)."If the food supply for the nitrifying bacteria is low, they simply will slow growth or numbers will decrease, but with a fish present they will not die off and will certainly be viable for rapid growth should ammonia production increase. Carl
|
|
cheri
Full Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by cheri on Jun 7, 2014 12:25:54 GMT -5
Hi Carl,
The sponges and Matrix that are in the 5 gal tank, are seeded by the fishless cycle method using, non-surfactant ammonia. So I don't really need to be concerned of the risk of disease transfer.
The information you sent just now is very exciting! Such a relief to know that the sponges are going to immediately be beneficial for the tanks and betta fish. Today, I will add the sponges into their tanks.
Another couple questions. Is it better to add the Matrix and driftwood pieces later? I don't believe that there would be enough ammonia to feed on in the betta tanks.
Without any air circulation like in the vase my neighbors betta is in; would it or would it not benefit from a medicine bottle seeded with Matrix? Without air circulation, the bio-bugs would die, correct?
Great news!!! Thank you so very much...((:
Cheri
|
|