Betta with internal growth

[cheri]

Hi!

My bettaboy Kam, started growing a bulge inside, on the right side of his body.  This started last summer. 

 I had read on another site some time ago that tumors sometimes start to grow without the fish showing any other signs of illness. I just assumed this is what happened to him as he acted and ate like nothing was wrong .

He started getting fin rot around December and I put in on Kana with 100% daily water changes as he lives in four gallons of unfiltered water.  I treated him for 28 days as the fin rot did not improve.

So about a week ago I noticed that poo was dangling from his bottom, continually.  I looked closer with a 5x magnifier and can now see a super fine hair-like string protruding from his anus.  I attempted to remove it with tweezers, but he violently wriggled and the hair-like thingy is stuck!!!  This morning, there were two air bubbles on him one under his pectoral fin and the other on his anus. Since finding the hair thingy I have cut way back on his food.  Today I gave him some green pea. I regularly feed them peas with a day of fasting, and yet this hasn't helped with the problem.

The internal bulge has grown to where it has been bulging out on both sides of his body for a couple months now.

Is there anything I can try to remove this stringy thing from his body?

Is there any recommendations that can help Kam?

The first pic are with the fine stringy thing yet it is hard to see. Pic #1 the string is floating along side his pelvic fin .  #2 is of the bulge and poo.  #3 is of the two bubbles that came from his anus.

He is a petco betta, and he was pretty much full grown when he came to live here.  He's been with me for 15 months now.

Water was RO with seachem buffers and Replenish.  PH was 6.8 - and temp. 80,  0 ammonia trites and trates.  GH 6-8 and KH 0.

Changed water slowly over a month.  Now its .25 tap with 75% RO.  PH 7.4-7.6 and temp. is 77-78.  0 ammonia, 0 trites, and trace of trates.  GH 6-8 and KH 1-2ish.  I keep 1/2 of sm. wonder shell in tank.

I appreciate your time and your help.

Thank you.Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedAttachment Deleted

Cheri

 

[devonjohnsgard]

Mar 14, 2014 19:08:20 GMT -5 cheri said:

Hi!

My bettaboy Kam, started growing a bulge inside, on the right side of his body.  This started last summer. 

 I had read on another site some time ago that tumors sometimes start to grow without the fish showing any other signs of illness. I just assumed this is what happened to him as he acted and ate like nothing was wrong .

He started getting fin rot around December and I put in on Kana with 100% daily water changes as he lives in four gallons of unfiltered water.  I treated him for 28 days as the fin rot did not improve.

So about a week ago I noticed that poo was dangling from his bottom, continually.  I looked closer with a 5x magnifier and can now see a super fine hair-like string protruding from his anus.  I attempted to remove it with tweezers, but he violently wriggled and the hair-like thingy is stuck!!!  This morning, there were two air bubbles on him one under his pectoral fin and the other on his anus. Since finding the hair thingy I have cut way back on his food.  Today I gave him some green pea. I regularly feed them peas with a day of fasting, and yet this hasn't helped with the problem.

The internal bulge has grown to where it has been bulging out on both sides of his body for a couple months now.

Is there anything I can try to remove this stringy thing from his body?

Is there any recommendations that can help Kam?

The first pic are with the fine stringy thing yet it is hard to see. Pic #1 the string is floating along side his pelvic fin .  #2 is of the bulge and poo.  #3 is of the two bubbles that came from his anus.

He is a petco betta, and he was pretty much full grown when he came to live here.  He's been with me for 15 months now.

Water was RO with seachem buffers and Replenish.  PH was 6.8 - and temp. 80,  0 ammonia trites and trates.  GH 6-8 and KH 0.

Changed water slowly over a month.  Now its .25 tap with 75% RO.  PH 7.4-7.6 and temp. is 77-78.  0 ammonia, 0 trites, and trace of trates.  GH 6-8 and KH 1-2ish.  I keep 1/2 of sm. wonder shell in tank.

I appreciate your time and your help.

Thank you.View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachment

Cheri

 

Cheri,

Im sorry to read about your bettas health. I hope you are doing ok about it.

I'm not a disease expert and Carl might be able to shed some more light on to what the betta has, but I did notice that your water quality is a little off. This could easily be the cause to how these disease happened. What % of water do you do a water change with? You said 100% one time and slowly over a month another time.

My opinion is first, there are some essential minerals lacking from your tank. I see this from you GH reading. It could come up more.
A 25%-75% blend is a very high blind, meaning you really have to have a good understanding of water chemistry if you are going to be using this much % of RO water. I see you're using Replenish, but I'm not certain it's enough because of the GH reading. I would suggest cutting a 50%-50% with the dosing of Replenish and the wonder shell. You're clearly on the right track though.

I also see that the KH is very low, this causes pH swing, which could cause these issues. Are you adding any buffers? pH swings are way harsh on a fish, worst, the living in a consent low or high pH. You can add some pillow moss, driftwood, or almond leave, which would really help. They are a natural soft water buffer.

Here's some resources that can help.

Use of RO water:
americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#rodi

Basics GH,KH, and pH
www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/

Here on that should really help. Title: My Fish Are Sick, What do I do?
Sick Fish

I hope this helps and good luck.

[Carl]

It appears that you are mostly following some good procedures

However I would not recommend a 100% water change daily, generally lass frequently and smaller amounts all this does is add stress to the fish, mostly by never having a stable bio system.
If the water changes are needed to keep ammonia, nitrites low, then I would look at better filtration such as a sponge filter and/or even a small medicine bottle filled with SeaChem Matrix

I would also suggest a slightly higher KH of at least 3 dKH and trying a 50/50 tap/RO water mix

References:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html
in particular the section "Methods" and the subsection on bowls
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/bettas.html

As for the fish, the bulge and "poop issue" could indicate a parasite (although I would not necessarily disagree with the tumor guess, as these are all educated guesses), however based on the symptoms, the best educated guess based odds would be a parasite

Soaking foods in a slurry with Metronidazole would be a good idea.
As well a bath that includes Metronidazole, Furan 2, Methylene Blue, & salt once per day for 7-10 days would also be a good idea

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#food_delivery

Product Sources for Metrondizole, Furan 2, Methylene Blue
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#metronidazole
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Pimafix.html#furan
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quickcure.html#methylene

Carl

[cheri]

Hi
Thanks so much for responding. What I said earlier was very confusing, sorry for that.

I have read multiple times over the past couple years the awesome articles by Carl. I don't grasp water chemistry. It has always been an issue with me. I do believe I have caused harm to my bettas even though my intentions were meant for good.

Iam still in the process of changing all RO with buffers and Replenish, to using 25% tap/75% RO with Replenish. I do keep 1/2 sm. wonder shell in the tank. This is what I meant when I previously said, "changing the water slowly over a month".

People have told me that I keep the bettas water too clean. I do 100% water changes every 5-7 days. Really isn't any issue with ammonia. Twice the seachem alert showed 'alarm' and then I added 3 drops of Prime until I changed the water the following day.

The 50/50 water blend doesn't work because the water here is putried. During summer we usually get warnings for children and pregnant woman not to drink faucet water.
Using the API test, The PH on average is 8.2 with GH 20 drops & up, KH 15 drops & up, and nitrate is the killer at 20ppm and during summer it's 40ppm.
Agriculture is still large here and some farming.

I am guilty to over feeding. But now my concern is if Kam is getting enough nutrition because I feed him one small brine shrimp, or one bld. worm, or one pellet once a day, whereas he use to eat twice a day.

This morning the poo coming out of Kam is yellow in color. Any suggestions as what to do for him? The hair-like string is still stuck inside him and it looks looped. I know that if I take hold of it again, it will only cause him pain because it's stuck. I don't know what to do for him, or how to improve the water chemistry. I do know that I won't bring home anymore suffering bettas from the 'store'. I only go there to buy frozen fish food anyways. I do however want to take the best of care of Kam and Kim whom are with me now.

Have you ever seen large bumps like his before?

Thanks so much, again.
Cheri

[cheri]

Thank you Carl.
Quick question: the Furan-2 and Metronidazole that I have on hand expired one on 2/2014 & 3/2014. Do you think they would be okay to use, or would that be to risky?
I also have 6 sm. medicated wonder shells that I purchased from you approximately 2 yrs. ago. Should they be tossed?

Reminder, that Kam is living in an unfiltered, four gallon tank.
I had put him in a unfiltered 2 gallon tank and that was my reason for doing 100% water changes daily while he was being treated with Kana. Also a small bubbler is in the tanks, and a heater. Is 77-78 too cold?

[Carl]

Your temperature is OK.

I would most definitely add a filter, I added small sponge filters to customer tanks as small as 1/2 gallon (the picture in the Betta Care article and Sponge Filtration article is just 1/2 gallon).
Having filtration will make for more stable water, which is very important.
Sponge Filtration, Filter Use article:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/sponge_filtration.html

The best used by expiration dates are but a guide to when they start to loose potency
Please read:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#expiration
"Despite common belief, 95% of medications are still quite effective well past their expiration/best used by dates printed on packages (generally an antibiotic is at least 90% + effective 6-12 months after said date)."

The Medicated Wonder Shells do not have chemicals that will expire

I have seen what you have described and shown in your picture, which is why I believe you might have an internal parasite as I noted earlier (please give those previous articles a read)

From the Parasite article I provided earlier (please give it a read)
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html:
"Here is a list of some other general symptoms of nematode infections (besides the above already mentioned symptoms):

*Body Hemorrhaging
*Lumps or nodules on outer body (epidermis)
*Bloated abdomen (the fish may continue to eat or show otherwise normal behavior)
*Cysts, Inflammation, or Granulomas"

You would probably be OK with staying at the 75/25% RO to Tap, if you provide a bit higher KH and provide filtration so that the need for water changes is lower. Please note however that even 40 ppm nitrates is not a "killer", but is certainly a high starting point for "Clean" water to be added to your aquarium
See "Aquarium Nitrates" below:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.html

Carl

Carl

[cheri]

I want to help Kam and will start the medicated, soaked pellets, and bath tomorrow for 7-10 days.

I simply do not understand how to raise the KH.
Also, I don't understand how 75% RO & 25% tap has such a low KH, but has a high PH of 7.8? This shows my ignorance of water chemistry. [:
Will you please try to explain this to me in layman terms?

Thank You much.

Cheri

[Carl]

Normally you would have a higher KH with such a pH number, but not always.
In fact having such a relatively high pH while the KH is very low indicates a pH that is likely very unstable and even small amounts of nitric acid or other potential acids common in aquariums could cause the pH to crash suddenly.
This is part is why I suggested a higher percentage of tap water, since adjusting chemistry in pure RO or mostly RO water is something I only recommend for advanced aquarium keepers, because it can be a bit tricky.
Part of the reason this can be "tricky" is there is no one answers from my use of RO water, due to many variables each aquarium can add to any recommended equation, including the ones I publish in my "Aquarium Chemistry" article
Example from:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html


The above formula is but a starting point, however acid production, filtration, bio load, circulation,and even dissolved oxygen and CO2 levels can affect this formula.

However it does start with adding Alkaline buffers, such as SeaChem Alkaline Buffer
Product Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#acid

Adding a filter that will also get some natural bio processes going is a MUST in my experience.
A small Hydro Sponge #1 or Mini would work for this
Product Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.html

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Thanks for all the addition information Cheri. Looks like Carl addressed it pretty well. I just want to chime in and say, stay clear of the 100% water changes. It just destroys your Nitrogen Cycle. My guess is the the damage to the fish is from swinging pH and ammonia issues. I would work on getting my tank to cycled and then all these chemistry ideas. Work on the basics then work up to the complex Even if it takes not using RO for a bit, but that is up to you, if you think you can get it dialed in. Keep at it!

[cheri]

Hi

Starting day six of bath - also dosing Furan2 into the tank daily, with 100% water changes.
I will stop the 100% water changes on the 10th day of meds..
Kam doesn't show much change, except yesterday there was a large poo exiting but yet stuck to him in the impacted hair-thingy.
Today, the color of poo is yellow. UGH...and his sides are still protruding.
Food is fed to him presoaked in Metro....
From past experience; I now agree that too clean of water isn't good for bettafish.

I lost a healthy female betta last April. She was 14 mos. old. Bought her as a baby at the 'store'.
I had her in a tank with sponge filtration, and later noticed wormies in the water. (my fault).
A couple months later after a partial water change her fins lost some color. The inside thermometer bounced up and hit the tank top during the water change. There were no visible cracks and I didn't feel any cracks but I guess that there was a fracture in the glass of the thermometer and maybe she was poisioned. (just a guess) The next morning she was dead. Not sure why, but it was so sad.

I really don't want to start filtration; at least not for now.
In using Matrix in a medicine bottle as shown on the site, will I need to grow bio first for it, or can I just place new Matrix into the tank and do partial water changes?
Iam working the water up slowly to get to a KH of 3 - right now it is 2 drops. The test turns yellow with the 3rd drop now.
The PH is between 7.6/7.8. Before I add Replenish the GH is 3 drops but it becomes 6-7 drops with Replenish. I keep 1/2 of a sm. wonder shell in the tanks and in the water I'm preparing to use for water changes.

[Carl]

Mar 22, 2014 13:56:12 GMT -5 cheri said:

There were no visible cracks and I didn't feel any cracks but I guess that there was a fracture in the glass of the thermometer and maybe she was poisioned. (just a guess) The next morning she was dead. Not sure why, but it was so sad.

These thermometers only use Glycerin (which is a sugar) and is not poisonous, so I would worry that this was the cause.

Starting day six of bath - also dosing Furan2 into the tank daily, with 100% water changes.

You can also add a 1/2 dose of ParaGuard to the aquarium to help more with parasites. Also a Medicated Wonder Shell is an excellent follow up to such a treatment (after a water change)
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html

I really don't want to start filtration; at least not for now.
In using Matrix in a medicine bottle as shown on the site, will I need to grow bio first for it, or can I just place new Matrix into the tank and do partial water changes?

Just place this in the tank.
I would recommend a sponge filter if you have it, as good bio filtration is so important to fish health.

Iam working the water up slowly to get to a KH of 3 - right now it is 2 drops. The test turns yellow with the 3rd drop now.
The PH is between 7.6/7.8. Before I add Replenish the GH is 3 drops but it becomes 6-7 drops with Replenish. I keep 1/2 of a sm. wonder shell in the tanks and in the water I'm preparing to use for water changes.

Great!

BTW, do you know how old this Betta is?

Carl

[cheri]

Thank You, Carl for your professional and caring response.

The exact age of Kam the betta is unknown.
At the store, he appeared fully grown, he hasn't changed much. His fins were a lot bigger and fuller before the fin rot started, but his body was about the same size. The bulges weren't there though.
He has been with me for 15 mos. now.

Just so happens I have Para guard on hand. It's never been opened, but I know it's a couple years old at least. I don't see any expiration date on the bottle so is it okay to use this? Also, as per dosing, the hospital tank holds 6qts. water. Will 1/4 tsp. too potent? Dose less?
I don't want to cause him any more harm.

Again Carl, Thank you so much, for your time and concern.

[cheri]

OOPS! I re-read your post and found your instructions on the Para Guard.
Using 1/2 dose would be 1/2 of 1/8 of a tsp.? Not too sure, as I get so confused.

Thanks again.

[Carl]

Cheri
I capful of ParaGuard is about 1 teaspoon, which treat 10 gallons at normal strength.
So 1/2 teaspoon would be the dose for 10 gallons at 1/2 dose

If your tank is 5 gallons it would be 1/4 teaspoon.
If your tank is 2.5 gallons you would use 1/8 teaspoon

Regards;
Carl

[cheri]

Hi!

Update on Kam the bettafish.
Back on 3-26-14 Was the 10th and last day of meds. and bath for Kam & Kim the bettafishes.
They appear to have done well going through the 10 days, although Kams' fin-rot is still with him.
This may seem very cruel to you but I think that now I will leave him in Gods hands. Before this last treatment of meds., I had run him through 28 days of Kana-Pro right before. IMO I think that too many meds can be harmful instead of helpful. Also, with all the treatments he's been through, if there was a cure for him it should have happened...?
He's doing well overall.
He still has side bulges. I did get that hair-stringy thing out of him the day after I ended the meds. (I have a pic of it if you want to see it)

I also started a fishless tank cycle with ammonia two days ago. So we'll see!

The water they are now in is a 50/50 mix of tap and RO.
PH-7.8/8.0, nitrates-10! KH-3+, GH-7, nitrites-0, ammonia-0. I do hope it's going to be okay for him. His body color isn't the blue it use to be but more with a red color to it. I do a 50% water change every third day otherwise ammonia starts showing. About how often should I perform a 100% water change?

THANK YOU both Carl and Devon for all the excellent advice! I truly appreciate your time and concern for the health of my bettaboy Kam.
You guys are great!

Cheri

[Carl]

Your welcome Cheri

Cheri, to be clear; Did the bath include the combination of Kanaplex (Kanamycin) AND nitrofurazone?

This is very important as these two medications work together in a way that sometimes neither is at all effective unless the other is used at the same time, this is especially true for Columnaris bacterial pathogens.

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html


Unfortunately, sometimes you are best to cease treatment and only work on the best possible water parameters, as often with Betta in particular I have observed weak genetics or fish that are sold in stores when they are already "old". All the treatments in the world cannot help a genetically weak or old fish, only providing the best diet and water parameters (& even then you are "simply buying time" IMO)

You might consider a Medicated Wonder Shell as a preventative, but just one dose (shell/block) then go back to the regular version for at least two weeks

Product Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html

As for water changes, I still rarely recommend a 100% water change due to stresses on the fish and the fish water parameters. Sometimes this can lead to an unhealthy nitrogen cycle.
Getting an established bio filter is most important in my experience.

From the Aquarium Cleaning article:
"A mistake I have documented in several controlled tests is the "over cleaning" of bowls; meaning changing 100% of the water and scrubbing, sterilizing the bowl prior to reintroducing the fish (usually a Betta).

In these tests I documented an ammonia level as high as 2 ppm in as soon as 1 day after such a cleaning practice.

Better is a water change of 50% along with a simple wiping and rinsing of any substrate (such as marbles) and decor.
Better yet is to use a small sponge filter, Matrix (or similar) as a substrate, or use Matrix or similar in small medicine bottle that is only mildly rinsed with old bowl or de-chlorinated water. This would allow for at least some bio filtration and important bio stability to your small tank/bowl."

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html#bowl

Carl

[cheri]

Hi Carl,

I did not use the Kana & nitrofurazone at the same time. The Kana was used the month before I contacted this website.

I did the daily baths with furan2, methylene blue, metronidazole, and aquarium salt. After, I would add the recommended amount of furan2 into his tank. Soaked his food in metronidazole. I followed this regiment for 10 days.

I am still soaking his food in metronidazole though.

I appreciate and respect your experience and expertise; so I will re-read the article on the medicated wondershells. I do have some on hand. What exactly is 'one dose'? Since Kam is in an unfiltered tank at this time, would I need to do 100% changes daily, or how do I keep the medicated shell from becoming too strong or toxic, but still effective? I get very nervous about over doing and hurting him while trying to help.
Thank you!
Cheri
ps-Kam hasn't poo'd the past two days. UGH...

[devonjohnsgard]

Cheri,

I know what you mean about just leaving him in God's hands now. You have put a lot of effort into this treatment, so you can certainly say you have done your best. I just went through a medication treatment cycle with one of my Angles. He did not survive but I did learn a lot for future treatments. That's all we can do though and you are doing a lot.

100% water change will be very hard on the fish. It will never allow for a cycle to start. I would think you could do like a 10-20% daily, to keep it fresh and some type of cycle going. The wonder shell shouldn't become to strong because it only releases into the water as levels go down. The wonder shell is only used up as needed. It shouldn't be a problem. Doing the 100% water change is what makes me the most nervous.

[Carl]

I would cease with medication at this point to prevent antibiotic resistance.

At some point in the future it can be taken up again, but make sure to combine the Kanaplex and Furan 2 in both baths and in tank treatment (if needed in tank)

As for s dose of Medicated Wonder Shell, this would depend upon tank size.
For example, one small Medicated Wonder Shell treats a 1-3 gal bowl

Carl

[cheri]

Hi Everybody,

Kam has been slowly going down hill and the past three days is showing pop-eye on her left eye.
She sways her back and goes into a trance like state. She expels a big air bubble from her gills at times. Her fins are quickly getting shorter, and the dorsal fin looks like it's melting. This sweet bettafish looks beat up. She is alert and has a very good appetite.

I don't know what to do for her as she has been on large doses of meds recently. I don't know what kind of pain she is in and don't want her to suffer, but she deserves every possible chance.

This is so embarrassing: I thought that Kam was a male as per the little cup labeled 'male' when I brought him home from the store.
Just a few weeks ago, I thought I saw an oviposter,(mispelled?). Her anus had been impacted previously so I had not seen her ovisposter. Looks like Kam may not be a 'He'... but a 'She'!
So now I'm wondering, might the bulges on her sides be impacted from eggs and not a tumor or parasites?

The water is a 50/50 RO/tap.
Ph-7.8; ammonia-0; trites-0; trates-10+; KH-4/5; GH-6-8. Temp. is 78-80 degrees. I keep a Seachem ammonia alert in her tank and test the water every couple of days for trace amounts of ammonia.
I change 25-50% of the tank water every 3/4 days. Change 80% about once a month. I allow the 50/50 water mix and 1/2 a sm. wonder shell with some Replenish and a bubbler and heater to age a couple days before each partial change.

I completed a fishless cycle in a 5 gal. tank and when I put one of the sponges and medicine bottle w/Matrix in a 2.5 gal. fishless tank, the darn thing wouldn't get cycled. So I tore the 2.5 tank down for now and put the sponge and Matrix back into the 5 gal with the other sponges and Matrix.

I hope these pics are helpful...continued on 2nd page.
The 1st pic; do you see the oviposter???

Gods Blessings and Thank You so much.
Cheri