"CHANCE" THE BETTA NEEDS MEDICAL ADVICE

[missdiane]

CHANCES HOME: 2 GALLON, FILTERED, HEATED
25% WATER CHANGE TWICE WEEKLY
WONDER SHELL & INDIAN ALMOND LEAF IN TANK
TEMP. 78, ph 7.6, 0 AMMONIA, 0 NITRITES, .5 NITRATE,
PLANTED
"CHANCE" SHOWED SIGNS OF FIN ROT - HE HAD IT A YEAR AGO WHEN RESCUED, SEEMED TO BE CURED WITH SALT BATHS & JUNGLE ALL IN ONE TREATMENT. ALSO HAS ON & OFF ISSUE WITH SWIM BLADDER - HOWEVER HASN'T HAD THIS PROBLEM FOR SOME TIME
2 WEEKS AGO I WAS ADVISED TO TREAT WITH MARACYN - AFTER TREATMENT FAILED, I LEARNED THIS WAS THE WRONG ADVICE (YES, I SHOULD'VE LOOKED HERE FIRST.)
STARTED MEDICATED BATH IN HOSPITAL TANK ONCE DAILY (30 MIN.) WITH METHYLENE BLUE, 1 TSP AQUARIUM SALT (GAL), 1/4 EPSOM SALT. SHORTLY AFTER BATH, HE STARTED ERRATIC SWIMMING AS SEEN WITH SWIM BLADDER DISORDER. BY THE NEXT DAY, HE SEEMED TO FEEL BETTER
ADDED FURAN 2 & KANAPLEX TO HIS REGULAR TANK. DECIDED TO WITHHOLD FOOD FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS TO ALLEVIATE BLADDER DISORDER.
THE NEXT DAY HIS SWIMMING & BEHAVIOR WERE NORMAL - I GAVE HIM ANOTHER MEDICATED BATH. WITHIN 1 HOUR HE WAS AGAIN ON HIS SIDE & HAVING DIFFICULTY SWIMMING. THIS LASTED THROUGH THE NIGHT. THIS MORNING HE IS UPRIGHT, BUT LOUNGING ON AN ALMOND LEAF FOR SUPPORT - OBVIOUSLY STILL HAVING BOUYANCY ISSUE.
TODAY, I WILL CHANGE WATER, ADD MORE FURAN 2 & KANAPLEX. CAN'T PUT FURAN IN FOOD AS HE CAN'T EAT WELL WITH THE SIDE FLOATING PROBLEM

SHOULD I STOP GIVING THE BATHS??
I'VE LOOKED EVERYWHERE BUT SEE NO INFO SAYING A MEDICATED BATH COULD CAUSE A PROBLEM
FOUR HOURS TILL WATER CHANGE TIME - CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ADVISE

[devonjohnsgard]

Missdiane,

I don't think it was the bath that caused the problem for the betta. It must be what he is suffering from that is still giving him a problem. I would say keep treating like Carl suggested and see if the problem gets better. Give it a little time and see if he gets better.

Are you putting double the normal amount of Methylene Blue in the bath. From Carls article.

For freshwater I would add Methylene Blue at double normal tank treatment strength (as per bottle instructions) then add salt (NaCl) at about 1 teaspoon per gallon (Epsom Salts can also be used too at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon in baths used for treatment, especially in cases of bloat, water retention, selling, etc.). This salt should be pre-dissolved prior to introduction of fish to prevent burning of gills.
The salt (regular salt; NaCl) can be increased for difficult treatments, especially with salt tolerant fish such as livebearers (it is best to slowly add dissolved salt to increase levels gently in salt amounts over 3 teaspoons per gallon, even in salt tolerant fish). Generally for most fish (even catfish based on University of Florida studies) 2 teaspoons per gallon can be tolerated for up to 30 minutes (many fish can tolerate 4 teaspoons per gallon), although if unsure about your fish’ tolerance, gradually add the salt via a dissolved solution during the first half of the bath.

Hope this helps.

[missdiane]

Yep I have followed Carl's recommendations EXACTLY. It's very odd - "Chance" is starting to sit upright in the water again, but after a few minutes he turns back to his side. He seems so determined! I feel really bad for him

[missdiane]

HELP!!!!!! NOW I'M SEEING AN AMMONIA SPIKE .50 IN THE REGULAR TANK - I'VE DONE 25% WATER CHANGE TWICE IN THE LAST 3 HOURS - DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DROPPING MUCH. WILL THE ANTIBIOTICS IN THE WATER POSSIBLY GIVE A FALSE READING??? HAVE READ THE ANTIBIOTICS ARTICLES AGAIN & CAN'T FIND AN ANSWER. I DID NOTICE CARL SUGGESTS A 10 DAY TREATMENT WITH FURAN 2 & KANAPLEX BUT THE BOX SAYS 3 TREATMENTS (48 HRS APART) OF KANAPLEX & 4 TREATMENTS (24 HRS APART) OF FURAN 2. NOW I'M REALLY CONFUSED - I KNOW THIS ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE FOR SOME FOLKS BUT AS FOR ME..........HELP PLEASE!

[devonjohnsgard]

Missdiane,

the treatments should have no effect on water parameters. Most treatments is about 3-4 days, but sometimes it can take up to 10 days. Since you know you are using the right treatment, you will have to watch for signs of improvement.

You shouldn't have to do so many water changes. From Carls Nitrogen Cycle article.

Here are a few suggested water change amounts based on ammonia reading (please note these are suggestions, not facts):

4.0 or higher; up to 50% per day
2.0- 4.0; up to 50% every other day or 25%- 50% per day
1.0- 2.0; 25% every other day
under 1.0; 20-25% every other day

Take a look at this article for more help with the High Ammonia.
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html#highammonia

I hope this helps

[missdiane]

Chance is still being treated with the 2 antibiotics & with daily medicated baths. The bath is Methylene Blue & EPSOM SALT which seemed to help with the bloating - 1 1/2 tsp to 1/2 gl. water. After no food for 2 days, I fed him some shelled pea yesterday. He pooped & was actively swimming in normal fashion. The bloating was gone. so, this morning I soaked a tiny amount (maybe a third of a flake) of Omega One Betta flake & fed him. within an hour, he was bloated again and floating on his side. I'm at my wits end - any advice on what to try?

[saw]

Have the parameters changed at all in the last few days? Did you soak the food with anything? Are you using wonder shells in the aquarium?

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/vibrio_aeromonas.html#swim_bladder

[missdiane]

the parameter changed previously to high ammonia - I added prime to bind it however it still tests high. I only fed him a small amount, a miniscule amount of 1 flake & he bloated up within an hour > so now he's back to no food. After his 'bath' he pooped again & is swimming normally but I'm really afraid to feed him. I stopped putting aquarium salt in the bath because that seem to bring on the initial bloating ? don't know how accurate it is, but have read that aquarium salt can make the fish retain fluid & bloat, but that epsom salt will reduce swelling > this is just crazy!

[parker002]

Salts are hygroscopic, meaning they attract and bind water. Epsom (magnesium sulfate) is just particularly good at doing it. Aquarium salt will not make your fish retain fluid, I've never heard that before. Aquarium salt is hygroscopic just like every other salt. It's possible that Aquarium salt just isn't as effective as Espom salt (in fact, I'd go out on a limb and say there's no way it is as effective, Epsom salt works that good) so it gives the impression that it's not doing its job.

With the symptoms your fish is displaying, I wouldn't discontinue using salt at this time unless you're using other mineral replacements. I strongly recommend Wonder Shells.

It seems your fish is having swim bladder issues, directly related to eating/constipation. Have you tried feeding peas for a longer period of time or just for one feeding? I think if this were my fish, I'd zero in some kind of digestive issue. I would probably recommend a medicated food.

[missdiane]

thanks Parker 0021 I've been using wonder shells in his tank for months now. also use Indian almond leaves. I fed pea once then nothing for 2 days. When he pooped, I fed pea again.. The next day he seemed to swim normally so I gave a small portion of Betta flake - then je bloated again. It's been 2 days now without food. Was thinking I'll try pea again as he is swimming normally again. OR - do you think I should let him go another day without food?
Been using 1 tbs. epsom in medicated bath INSTEAD of aquarium salt. do you think I should use both? m How much? Thinking I'll also add a small piece of wonder shell to his bath.........I just don't know what else to do. Haven't tried medicated food because I haven't been feeding him. Also, it's a 1 hour drive to the nearest LFS

[devonjohnsgard]

Morning,
I just keep thinking you need to get the ammonia under control before any of the treatments will work. Still doing a water change every other day?

[parker002]

As devonjohnsgard mentioned, you need to get your water parameters stabilized first. That should be your top priority, since no treatment is going to function well if you're keeping him in bad water.

If feeding him peas makes him return to normal, I would give him peas and only peas for the time being. If he's eating the peas well, you could get some liquid Metronidazole and soak them.

[missdiane]

The water parameters have always been perfect. There was no ammonia problem until I added antibiotics to the water. As soon as I saw an ammonia spike, i did 25% watwer change twice in one day. then I drove 50 miles to buy a bottle of prime and added it to the water. My understanding (from Carl's article) is that the Prime will bind the ammonia, but the test will still read high > so I can't REALLY tell by testing how the water is. I'm doing 25% every other day & the new ater is aged & conditioned with prime

[devonjohnsgard]

missdianne,
Your ammonia readings should continue to decrease with the use of prime.
You want to continue to use prime weather the reading is of ammonia or of ammonium.

"Please note that when using Prime (and Amquel Plus) for neutralizing toxic ammonia (NH3) that these products work basically "instantly" by converting toxic ammonia ions into non toxic bio available ammonium (NH4) ions.
There is no residual effect, so new toxic NH3 will begin to accumulate after addition of Prime (or Amquel Plus) and the water change, however generally if you are carefully feeding and keeping the bio load as low as possible this should be adequate if water is changed and Prime is added every other day (until the high ammonia "Crisis" is over"
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html#prime

Since your doing water changes every other day, this will work out good. Use prime after each water change.

[missdiane]

well... the 10 day antibiotic treatment & the 10 days of medicated baths are finished. Chance has been very bloated since his bath yesterday - he had 1 omega betta pellet yesterday morning & a small amount of pea in the afternoon after his bath - then he bloated up. He can barely swim or stay upright. He has balance himself sideways between the tank filter and the glass. Abdomen so puffed that his color looks pale.
I just don't know what else to do. Ammonia still tests .25 though I'm changing the water daily & adding Prime. Nitrites and nitrates 0. 78 degrees & still 7.6 PH.
He looks so sad & this is breaking my heart

[parker002]

Is he still eating? If he is, medicated food is probably your best best at this point. How old is he?

[devonjohnsgard]

Missdiane,

You are still doing water changes too often, this can also create problems with ammonia. Do a water change every other day until the ammonia reading is down.

4.0 or higher; up to 50% per day
2.0- 4.0; up to 50% every other day or 25%- 50% per day
1.0- 2.0; 25% every other day
under 1.0; 20-25% every other day

I would work on getting the ammonia down then try treatments again.

[missdiane]

my water changes are every other day as you recommend. i have no idea of his age - I rescued him from walmart a year ago - he was not a fry.
He will eat if I feed him - this is the third day that I've fasted him (AGAIN) After fasting, the swollen abdomen goes away & he swims correctly.When I give him even 1 pre-soaked Omega One Betta pellet OR any other type of fish food - within 3 hours he is swollen & unable to swim correctly again. this has continued for almost 2 weeks. I feed shelled pea (he loves it), then fast him. The swelling goes away. I feed him & the swelling returns.
Regarding the ammonia - i have followed instructions on this site EXACTLY. Cannot tell by the reading that the ammonia is down. The test kit is API liquid. from this site I learned that the ammonia is down but the reading will still show high

[devonjohnsgard]

Sounds like you are on track with the water changes, that's good. Just keep doing them every other day and watch for improvements. I would recommend soaking the peas in medication then feeding. Fast for a couple maybe three days, then try another medicated pea. See if that controls the bloating. Do this for a little while and hope for improvement.
Keep at it, I'm sure the little guy is thankful for you

[parker002]

Yep, soak the peas.

I personally would use Metronidazole as this tends to be a good internal antibiotic treatment and is effective against single-celled parasites (other than bacteria) that can infect the GI tract. If you want to cover all your bases, combine the Metro with Neomycin - the combo will cover anaerobic and aerobic bacteria.

EDIT: You might also add a bit of garlic oil to your soak. Fish tend to like the taste and it can be soothing in cases of GI distress.