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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 20:35:54 GMT -5
My first thought was that he was impacted from the Freeze-dried blood worm. I thought I'd cut it in 2, but it held together by a thread, folded over and he grabbed both halves at once. I did try soaking one once, but it didn't seem to make any difference in the consistency. They look to be just outer shells and not particularly absorbent.
I don't have any peas, but I do have frozen brine shrimp that I could try. I've been afraid to feed him anything, since I first spotted the problem this afternoon, thinking it could make it worse.
-Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 22:25:57 GMT -5
I tried feeding frozen brine at 10 and 11 PM, but no luck. -Donna
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Post by Carl on May 25, 2012 9:39:34 GMT -5
Do you have a more recent picture of your Betta?
Based on your information to date, I still have my doubts this is Dropsy.
Sadly this could simply be your Fish' bodily systems "shutting down" as often happens even after what may seem like a recovery due to response from treatment. This happens in human treatments too with serious infections.
Re-starting baths, with Kanaplex, salt, and either Neomcycin or Metronidazole may or may not be helpful, but if this were my fish I would do this for another 7 days.
I will defer to others points as to constipation, as hopefully this is all that is wrong.
Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 11:11:41 GMT -5
I'll try and get another photo, but he's been hiding most of the time and/or staying in the breeder box. Even when he comes out, he tends to go behind it. I might have to juggle it and the hood again to get it out.
In the meantime, I'm testing his water and the pH is up to 8.3 and the ammonia is still at 0.5. Nitrites and Nitrates are at 0. I'm in the middle of testing the GH and KH and will get back to you on that. Then I'll try the photo thing. It could take a while...
No metronidazole in the bath? I thought that was mentioned somewhere on the APP site for bloat. Also, is it possible he might be having kidney problems and the Kanaplex might exacerbate that?
Kind of an odd situation. It can cause kidney problems, but then you use it to treat it?
Any in-tank treatment?
-Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 11:17:41 GMT -5
He's having some trouble getting to the top of the tank for air. I'm wondering if I would be better off putting him in a bowl, so I can do complete water changes, as well as make it easier for him to breathe or just drop the water level down in the tank. Either way, he won't have a heater to keep the temperature constant (I believe I'd have to turn it off if it's not completely submerged) and the bowl won't have a filter. The house has been at 74-76 degrees for the most part. I could just hoist the breeder box up to the top, but then I'd worry about the log rolling over on him, as the net bottom gets weighed down. Hate to take away his hiding place.
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 11:46:42 GMT -5
GH and KH are 19° and 8° (142ppm), respectively.
My husband corrected me and said the house has been between 72° and 76°.
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 13:14:27 GMT -5
OK...I finally got some good pictures (of a bad situation). It's looking like his scales are in fact "pineconed." Also, his gills look to be inflamed. So if you concur, Carl, I'll refer to the Dropsy page and do the Kanaplex and Methylene Blue bath, and the Kanaplex in the tank, at least until I can get some Neomycin or Metronidazole. Poor Bodhi... -Donna Attachments:
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 13:14:59 GMT -5
Here's another shot from above, as he was falling over on his side. -Donna Attachments:
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 13:17:10 GMT -5
And finally, a decent shot showing his fins flared...although fin rot seems to be the least of his problems right now. -Donna Attachments:
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 25, 2012 15:14:18 GMT -5
He is dropsy-ing. Dropsy is a symptom not the issue it's self. Dropsy is internal organ failure. Very few fish actually survive once they get to this point (I've been breeding for over 7 yrs now and none survive). If he were my fish, I'd euthanize him. I hate to be that harsh, but I'm one that will let an animal go instead of letting it suffer. I'm sorry (((hugs))) Lori
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 16:48:44 GMT -5
Thank you for your candor, Suzie Q.
I was rather expecting the worst...
With only a 25% chance of surviving under good tank conditions (I haven't been able to stabilize mine of late), I'm thinking I should let him go sooner rather than later.
Such a beautiful boy and such a nasty way to go...
If you or anyone else has suggestions on how do this in the most humane fashion, I'd appreciate it.
-Donna
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Post by Carl on May 25, 2012 17:48:27 GMT -5
I guessed wrong (which is why I asked for a picture; thanks), this is Dropsy
As Suzie-Q stated, there is not much you can do, especially considering the water conditions. I will emphasize that I have saved about 25% of Dropsy treatments over the years, but this is with optimum conditions & aggressive treatments
While this may seem confusing, this is true of many medications, and chemotherapies in humans; they may work well, but too much can cause damage or even kill. Neomycin is another similar example as per kidneys
As for euthanising,, my method is not popular with many, but it is quick and that is placing the fish in a bag, and wacking it hard. More popular is clove oil, but as violent as my method may seem I have found it often much quicker.
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Back to water chemistry; while I do not advocate chasing pH, based on the numbers you have given, and assuming some cutting of water, you should not be getting such KH readings and pH readings.
In a perfect environment the math is 100% accurate; that is if the tap water is a KH 200 KH and you add 25% RO water, your KH will be 150 ppm. If you pH is bouncing, something else is being missed, such as maybe your substrate, a rock, etc.
Keeping in mind what Parker stated to not get overly concerned with certain numbers, I would just shoot for "reasonable" numbers, which by this I mean easy to maintain, but first you need to do some experimenting around with your tap water and a bare or test tank.
Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 25, 2012 22:35:22 GMT -5
Well...it took me a few hours to get myself together to do it, but the deed is done. I wish I'd realized I didn't have to whack the bag quite so hard though. When I opened it to make sure I'd done a proper job, I saw I'd broken him in 2. It was quick and painless, if not momentarily stressful for him, but that's an image I won't soon forget... Thanks for the advice for the future, Carl, but I don't think I'll be attempting this again any time soon. I'm just spent in every manner I can think of. I do appreciate ALL your help and am just sorry that it was for naught. I learned a lot and it's a shame to waste it, but I need my life back. Stress relief indeed... Thank you Suzie Q, Parker002 and especially Carl. You put up with a lot before I even got on the forum. Before I go, I'd like to share a piece of poetry I wrote years ago, that started with thoughts about a baby field mouse that we'd tried to save. Bodhi's passing made me think of the first stanza and refrain: Life is so precious and fragile Yet held in the palm of one's hand. Sometimes we lose what we're seeking and grasp what we can't understand.
So with the turning of the leaves I wish them sweet repose And set a small piece of my heart wrapped in petals Beneath a lavender rose.Tomorrow, I think I'll bury him beneath the hostas. I think he'd appreciate the shade. Regards, -Donna Attachments:
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Post by Carl on May 26, 2012 10:49:36 GMT -5
Sorry it came to this Donna, but this was probably best as Suzie Q noted. Also my apologies in not noting to use a some paper inside or outside the bag so as to not see him after the fact. Should you try again some day, try some experimenting first, also check your RO source too, as not all RO is as it claims (I once had a customer bring in so-called RO water they purchased from a machine outside a supermarket and it was not pure, and in fact was loaded with carbonates). RIP Bodhi Carl
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 26, 2012 11:27:53 GMT -5
RIP Bodhi Donna...I PMed you back. Carl's method is quick . I used to work in the fish department of Walmart about 20 yrs ago. We were not allowed to dispose of fish unless they were dead...so of course the dying fish in the tank made the tanks look REAL nice (sarcasm). I'd net the fish and "thump" then with a pencil in the head ("thump" game from school 30 yrs ago). I understand your frustration...I had 3 spawns of over 100 fry just up and die within a couple of days of each other...Then my breeders wouldn't breed again (or came down with columnaris or some other issue). I was ready to give up breeding. Don't give up. I agree with Carl, don't worry about pH. In my fish room, Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates are what I watch the closest. gH and kH are next on my list, but I try not to chase those. Our water comes out of an area that is mostly white rock. (((hugs))) Lori
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 26, 2012 16:59:00 GMT -5
Thanks Carl and Lori,
I couldn't see what had happened until I opened the bag to make sure he was truly gone. I just wasn't expecting what I got. I read somewhere else that a guy made a flat envelope out of a few layers of plastic wrap, stuck his fish in there and then did the deed. That kept him flat, whereas in my case, I think he was curled up in the bottom of the bag when it hit. Hard lesson learned there...
It's not just frustration though. It's considerably more expensive and time consuming than I had ever envisioned. To make things more difficult, I have a terrible time remembering what I'm doing...even if I've written out instructions. And, most of all, I don't want to kill my dying fish. I couldn't believe it yesterday, when I was researching and having conversations on how to best kill him. It was so surreal! I thought my husband would be very upset by all this, but he was throwing in suggestions like "run him over with the car", "hit him with a hammer" or put him through the chipper/shredder. Geez...
Even if he had lived a fairly normal life span, it still would've only been 2-5 years and he was probably close to a year old when I got him. I know other fish live longer, and people seem to do OK with theirs in this area, but if I'm going to do something like this, I don't want my fish to just survive. I want them to thrive. If I can't manage that without stressing myself and/or the fish, then I think both they and I are better off not making the attempt. The whole reason I got him was to help me de-stress. Failed miserably at that one...
Just out of curiosity, I may test my RO water. I think the pH was about 6.4 last time I checked, but I never did GH or KH readings. Incidentally, that's what I and my dog drink and what I use to water the plants. Not much nutritive value there, but the tap water was destroying all my pots and pans with mineral deposits and coating everything at ground level in the plant pots as well. My husband drinks tap water through a filtered jug, but a lot of the minerals still get through. You can even see particulate matter when the water's hot and especially when boiling. I wonder if they have any kind of additive for RO water for people...
Now I just need to dig up the info on sterilizing everything and figure out what to do with all the chlorinated water. Too bad I won't get the chance to try fish water on my house plants. I imagine the tank water still has enough antibiotics to cause problems with my plants...which aren't terribly healthy to begin with.
I was waiting for it to cool off a bit before burying Bodhi and I think now's the time.
Best Wishes to you both, -Donna
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Post by parker002 on May 29, 2012 9:32:53 GMT -5
I too would urge you not to give up. It's more expensive and time-consuming than you envisioned because you're being consumed by the initial "knowledge transfer". Again, I know EXACTLY how you feel. I'm now a good 4 years into my fish-keeping experience and I can assure you that it's not NEARLY as expensive or time-consuming as it used to be. I have a routine, my tanks are stable, and I'm not constantly looking to replace equipment because I found something during my research that was better. I have Mollies (average life span of around 2 years) that were born in my tank and are now 3 years old and still healthy (too healthy, she's a bully .
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 29, 2012 13:09:22 GMT -5
Donna,
I had to chuckle at your husband's suggestions. That soooo reminds me of what my husband used to tell me when one of my fish got too bad off.
I hope you don't give up totally...give yourself a brake, but do try again.
Lori
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