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Post by bettathanbefore on May 20, 2012 0:14:09 GMT -5
Hi All, I've been bugging Carl about my Rosetail Betta's fin rot problem for a while now and while I've gotten many questions answered, I keep coming up with more. Carl deserves a break, so here I am... Before I found this site, I was told to treat my little guy with Erythromycin, but that didn't work (I now know it's not effective with gram negative bacteria). The fin rot has been relatively slow in progressing, so I decided to give Pimafix and Melafix a try. After 2 rounds of that and waiting another few days, I decided that too wasn't doing the trick and went with Carl's suggestions to treat in-tank with Kanaplex and Furan-2 and give him baths with Kanaplex and Methylene Blue. I'm on day 5 and was planning on going with the instructions on the Kanaplex bottle that state to dose every other day for 3 doses max, but I just read on the APP Medication site (pg. 2) that treatments should go for 10 days. Any thoughts on that?? To make matters worse, I had an ammonia spike of 1.0 ppm, but got it down to .5 with API Quickstart and then got some Seachem Prime and tried that, but it's still at .5 ppm. I think that's due to all the detritus that accumulated while I was doing the Pima/Melafix combo, as I removed the filter cartridge due to the carbon. Carl instructed me to remove the carbon and replace the filter and I did that at the beginning of this round of treatments, but for a couple of weeks there was no mechanical filter in place. I should mention that I'm a newbie, just having gotten into this in January, and have a 5 gallon Marineland corner tank with a bio wheel (I've read the pros and cons since) and heater. Up until recently I had excellent ammonia, nitrate and nitrite readings (0, 0 and 0 with the API Master Kit), so he didn't get the fin rot from dirty water. However, our tap water is quite hard (GH 250) and the buffering capacity is 300+ according to my Mardel test strips. The local pet shop's API tests were way off the charts. The GH finally turned color after 21 drops, but they gave up on the KH after 31 drops! I started doing 10% straight RO water changes (8 cups) for the first 4 days, while I've been doing the current fin rot treatments, to try and get KH specifically under control and now I'm doing 25% changes with 35% RO water (7 cups), which comes out close to the same thing. With all the detritus I'm still trying to remove, I figured a larger volume would be more helpful. When I checked with my Mardel strip this morning the GH was still at 250 and the KH was at 180, so that's better, but I'm not sure just how quickly it dropped. I admittedly didn't test for it sooner, thinking it would take a while to register much of a change. I'd tried 10% RO changes for about 3 days back in March and it didn't make a dent in the readings, except to cause the pH to fluctuate from 8.1 to 7.9 and back. I just picked up an API GH/KH test kit, so I'll give that a shot tomorrow. Yeah...my pH is high too, due to the elevated KH, which is why I'm trying to get it down. As of this morning it was at 8.0. So, while I need to not keep changing my parameters, I'm worried now that the KH will keep dropping, perhaps too quickly. My head is swimming with all this!! I've got a lousy memory, so have to write everything down, but I still mess up at times and forget something or other. Tonight I carefully figured out how much water I needed to remove, in addition to his bath water, measured out the amount to put back in and then forgot to siphon out the additional tank water after making his bath, and refilled the tank. So there I am standing with the rest of the bucket of new water, trying to figure out what to do. I finally just guesstimated how much needed to be siphoned out and poured the rest in. Thankfully, that worked, with a just a little to spare. Phew!! But you see my dilemma?? I got into this thinking that it would be a nice de-stressor, and it's been anything but! This is going to push me into early onset Alzheimer's yet...if I'm not there already. It's 1:00 in the morning now and I need some sleep. If I get a chance, I'll post a picture tomorrow. Thanks in advance! -Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 20, 2012 10:28:13 GMT -5
OK...so I pulled out my new GH/KH testers and did that and some other testing this morning and got: pH 8.0; Ammonia .5; GH 19°; and KH 7°! The pH and Ammonia haven't budged, but the GH and KH are vastly different from the readings I got with the Mardel test strips! The KH seems awfully low in comparison to the pet shops readings though. If I keep on my present course with even partial RO water changes, it'll go even lower. HELP!!! By the way, I think I neglected to mention that I do have a small Wonder Shell in there...for whatever that's worth. I've got tons of other stuff I need to get done today, since everything got put off yesterday to take care of this, so I'll check in as I can. PLEASE RESPOND!!! Thank you!!! -Donna -Donna
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Post by Carl on May 20, 2012 11:32:18 GMT -5
First; Welcome to EA Since it is a weekend (some members do not check in on weekends), I am the first to respond anyway. I want to assure you that your GH reading is actually fine and in fact a little low when Wonder shell usage is considered. As for your KH, it is coming down and it is obvious your tap water has primarily a carbonate hardness problem, (which as per the Chemistry Article is also called temporary hardness since carbonates can also be boiled out, unlike GH) Knowing your tap water pH, KH, & GH is also important in knwoing waht you are up against and then how much of your Tap to possibly "cut" with RO water. Also please keep in mind that the pH can lag behind a KH drop, and how much can depend upon acid production in your aquarium. Constant water changes tend reduce these acids from normal bio processes, so your pH will lag even more. Since you are at .5 now with your ammonia, I would not be overly concerned as the trend is down, and even Prime is not 100%. Also Prime converts to NH4 and most test kits test total ammonia with the exception of the SeaChem Test Kit which only tests toxic NH3 As per the API advice on the Furan 2, just as with the use of certain human antibiotics, the number of treatments can vary by antibiotic; so a longer treatment with it over the Kanaplex may be necessary. Parker, Suzie Q, GoldenPuon, Babygeige, & any others might have some fresh perspectives too when they come by Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 20, 2012 12:54:53 GMT -5
Thank you, Carl! I'll keep going with the Kanaplex. I just have to figure out what to do about the upcoming water changes. I hadn't done my tap water GH or KH before now (other than the test strips: GH 120-250; KH 120...which I assumed weren't reliable), but every time I've tested the pH, it's been 7.4 when it comes out of the tap and it goes up to 8.1 within 2-3 days. I've been keeping tap water in a gallon jug to use for that purpose, but forgot (another brain blip) yesterday and used it direct from the tap. Anyway, I just did all 3 tests on both the tap and the aged tap in a jug and got the following, plus added in the tank readings from this morning: Tap pH 7.4 Aged pH 7.8 Tank pH 8.0 Tap GH 13° Aged GH 14° Tank GH 19° Tap KH 14° Aged GH 15° Tank KH 7° I'm wondering if it's not going up to the pH 8.1 previously stated, because it's not able to dispel the CO2 through the small bottle opening. So it's not nearly so bad as the pet shop readings and my test strips indicated (one or more of these test media must be screwed up?) and I've been messing with it for naught. Sigh... Gotta run, but will check back in again as soon as I can. Thanks again, again, -Donna
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Post by babygeige on May 20, 2012 17:37:54 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, although I'm sorry to see that it's because of a problem with your betta. I'll be honest: I don't know much about GH & KH, so I'd have to defer to Carl's advice and research articles. I test them every month or so, and as long as they aren't out of the ordinary I don't worry about it. Just be careful that you aren't spending too much effort "chasing" readings, because making too many changes trying to get to an "ideal" KH, GH or PH can be more dangerous than leaving the numbers at "ok." Just be patient, keep going with your medicine for the fin rot, and do regular water changes to help remove any leftover detritus you might have in there. Try not to get too stressed out about it! Good luck and keep us posted!
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Post by Carl on May 20, 2012 18:04:14 GMT -5
Your numbers are quite typical based on your tap water starting point and considering the addition of Wonder Shells and partial RO water Your lower tank KH is due to the RO water and the higher tank GH is due to the Wonder ShellsThis is good advice IMO Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 20, 2012 18:47:19 GMT -5
But I'm afraid to continue with the RO water as I have. Isn't the KH low enough now?
-Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 20, 2012 21:06:30 GMT -5
Someone shoot me now... I decided to just do a 10% water change w/ 35% RO water, but forgot to mix it in and did all aged tap water. Like I said...when I get stressed, my mind just goes out the window. If I don't screw up one thing, it's another. Hopefully it's not enough to hurt him.
-Donna
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Post by parker002 on May 21, 2012 8:31:45 GMT -5
As you've noted, the additional stress is causing you to make mistakes. Not trying to be harsh but STOP. I know exactly how you feel and what's around the corner if you DON'T stop is not fun - I've killed otherwise healthy fish chasing "perfection". I have OCD. My tap water is "off the charts" hard. I still use 100% tap water, no RO water, and I use Wonder Shells. My fish are healthy, fat, and happy, even the Colombian Tetras that much prefer soft water. As Babygeige mentioned, stability and consistency, even if the parameters aren't "ideal", are often much more important than having all of your readings perfect. It's highly unlikely that hard water will kill your fish, at least in my experience. However, the absence of hardness and the potential pH swings that come with it absolutely will kill your fish. If it were me - and this is just my personal opinion - I would stop with the RO water. It requires too much "tinkering" and introduces too much potential to cause you stress. Increasing stress means more mistakes, which can lead to DEAD FISH. As to the use of antibiotics, Carl already said it - using antibiotics with your fish isn't really any different than taking them yourselves. Sometimes a longer course is needed for a particular infection and sometimes Kanaplex might not work where Furan 2 does. Keep in mind that anti-biotic resistance isn't just a human problem. Keep on with the medicine until the condition gets better. Stopping too soon only increases the chance of anti-biotic resistance in the future.
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 21, 2012 12:30:12 GMT -5
Thanks Parker002. On top of everything else, I had a job interview today and was stressing out that I wasn't putting in the time to prepare for that...but I got it anyway!! Woo-hoo!! Anyway, I WAS being good and NOT tinkering with the water parameters when he got the fin rot. I'm not sure what caused it, but the 8.1 pH (because of the high KH) was a likely suspect. There is also the possibility that the presoaked driftwood, that I introduced a month earlier, might've brought something in with it, as it came out of a pet shop tank with other fish. I have it soaking in a bucket while I'm doing the treatments in the tank, but don't know if I should do anything to it before reintroducing it or just chuck it. I really like having something natural with some plant growth (even if it is just algae and string algae), but don't know if It's too risky. Maybe do treatments in the bucket as well? I just started changing out the water with stuff that I siphoned out of the tank, so it is getting the med leftovers, but probably not enough. Maybe dry it out and start all over again?? I have every intention of finishing up the treatments. My question regarding the in-tank use of Kanaplex was because the box instructions said to only dose every other day for a maximum of 3 doses, so I was looking for clarification on Carl's suggested 10 day treatment. So...is there such a thing as probiotics for fish? I know when we undergo antibiotic treatments, it can wreck havoc with our digestion. I'm not sure which of the aquatic antibiotics are actually ingested, but might they not have the same effect? Like I don't have enough to wrap my brain around... -Donna
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Post by goldenpuon on May 21, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
First, welcome to EA bettathanbefore! I have kept and bred bettas before (with so-so results IMO). I definitely agree that you should not worry so much about the PH, KH, and GH. Stabilility is most important. As far as tests, I have gotten strange results on occasion without the fish acting strangely at all. Ex. I added a great product to increase KH and GH after a water change I had used many times before that I still use now. and got a reading of 8.4 for the PH in my goldfish's tank up from 7.3. I became worried, tested again several hours later, it had gone down to about 8.0, tested again, and it was at 7.8. Eventually, I realized that the water had probably not had a chance to settle and was getting false readings due to that. The fish seemed like they could care less- no stress at all. They honestly should have been stressing out pretty badly if the readings had been correct. I highly recommend waiting 24 hours after a water change before testing for this reason. Also, what symptoms is your betta showing besides the fins getting worn away? Is he eating, active, showing bright/normal coloration? I have seen some bettas' fins wear away a bit with age or conditions that could be better and then grow back. I have seen fish (when overdosed) actually "lose" some finnage of their tails that grew back. Unless you are seeing more signs of illness besides fins wearing away, I would recommend taking a wait-and-see attitude. From what I know (though I have seldom had a stand-alone case of fin rot with my fish), it progresses pretty fast. And for your question on Kanaplex, you would want to wait several days before beginning treatment again and do a 25-50% water change and adding carbon back into your filter. One last thing, when I started keeping fish at age 12, I chased PH and other water conditions and way way overtreated my fish. They died very fast due to that. But once I got the hang of caring for fish and taking more of relaxed take on treatment, my fish stopped dying. I will have 4 goldfish (rescued feeder fish) that I will have had 7 years before the end of 2012 and an ancient 3 1/2 year old guppy who is definitely not showing his age. Last, I think you may do better with using tap water over RO perhaps. (This is not to say RO water is bad or should never be used with fish). I hope that helps and good luck! Don't worry too much and let the fish be for now. Renee
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 21, 2012 13:34:58 GMT -5
Thanks, Renee. Bodhi's shown no signs of even being aware that all's not well. He does laps around the tank like he hasn't a care in the world and his appetite hasn't suffered in the least, through any of this. His tail and dorsal fin, however, did get worse after the Pima/Melafix treatments, although the progression was so slow, it took me a while to decide if it was or not. It wasn't until I looked at some pictures I took midway through the treatment that I could tell. Wish I'd taken more at the start of the current treatment, so I have something to judge from. He's been difficult to get decent pics of though, because he zips around so much whenever I get near, looking for food.
I saw that other post regarding fin nipping (and the fact that it's most prevalent in Rosetail Bettas) and my husband thought he saw Bodhi doing it once, but I can't imagine he'd be able to get ahold of his dorsal fin as well, and I've never seen him do anything remotely like that.
Oops...gotta run out again.
Thanks again, -Donna
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 21, 2012 14:06:06 GMT -5
Donna, I am prone to anxiety attacks too (when you get to the point you are...that is what it is). You just kinda shut down. Also, you have one of the hardiest fish on the planet...I know, I breed and show them. Our water comes out of an area that its neighbor town (where I actually live) is called The Cement Capital of Texas....what does that tell you about my water? LOL Does he have any other symptoms other then slight rotting of his fins? How BAD is the fin rot? Is it affecting his tail only, or other fins? Are the edges of his fins red or black/dead looking? With what you are doing, it sounds more like columnaris maybe (Carl, thoughts?)...Fin rot usually responds quickly with just clean water. One of my retired show fish (he blew his tail) came down with fin rot (red "bloody" looking area. Clean water (no meds) every day (mine are in 32 oz mason jars), and clean jars and he already has new growth (about 4 days now). Now IF his fin rot is gone then disregard the above text.........may have missed that in my "speed" scanning As far as the water conditions.....QUIT!!! . Like everyone has already said, better to monitor stable conditions then to chase them. You are doing more harm then good. I like Sam? Steph? said...I don't really understand the gH and kH, but I do understand pH Carl is awesome with not banning me because of my ignorance ...lol. Anyway, the betta will adapt to your water conditions. This is why with any new fish, there needs to be an acclimation time. I think most "advice" is float for 30 mins...dump fish... NOT advisable!!! 30 min float, THEN use a drip to drop 1 drop every 5 seconds into HIS water...allow it to eventually overflow the container into a bigger container until he can swim from his original (when store bought) into the bigger container...(this is the easy version for me ). It may take a day (24hrs), but if you think about it...compare to YOU getting into a swimming pool....Jumping in, shock, eventually get used to it, or a VERY slow acclimation...this is what we HAVE to do when we get an imported betta in from overseas. I don't use RO in my tanks, but another breeder HAS to cut her water. IF you have to, then I'd suggest being exact on how much ratio you use, and have several gallons made up at any given time. As far as the 5g, I've never had a 5g fully cycle. 10g is the smallest that will completely cycle. Can I suggest live plants? Java Fern or Wendtii (I like the Wendtii a little better) will work great and help with the water conditions. Both are low light plants so a T5 light (via Carl's website), or a T8? (florescent) at....ummmm...3600K? (I am trying to remember...I have 4500k on my 10g planted tanks). They will thrive. I don't fert my tanks very often at all and change 25% weekly (don't syphon around plant roots. Both of these plants will grow ok in grave bedding (substrate). The Wendtii is a rooted plant and the Java Fern is a tubular type plant. (work got in the way...lost my train of thought)...if I remember what else I was gonna say, I'll edit). Lori
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Post by parker002 on May 21, 2012 15:43:09 GMT -5
I have both plants Suzie Q recommended. Java Fern grows VERY slowly but reproduces rather quickly (it grows entire new plants at the tips of its leaves).
Cryptocoryne Wendtii grows quicker than Java Fern (but not nearly as fast as Wisteria or Water Sprite) and reproduces at a medium pace via runners under the gravel.
Both of them could be a true "center piece" in a small aquarium. In my daughter's 14G tank, the Red Wendtii reaches all the way to the surface and forms the background for the center 1/3 of her tank.
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Post by Carl on May 21, 2012 18:06:50 GMT -5
Donna; as you can see you have gotten received considerable input. The one main consensus is to not "chase" parameters. So either choose to maintain as a steady of a pH as possible with your high tap KH as some noted OR cut your water with a % of RO, but then find a % and stick with it as Suzie Q noted. As for duration of treatment, generally 7-10 days is what it takes, but I generally defer to the manufacturers instructions which in the case of Kanaplex is not as long a Furan 2 As for Columnaris (as per Suzie Qs suggestion), this may be the bacterial cause, but only a microscopic slide could 100% confirm this, but a good picture could allow for an educated guess. Driftwood can bring in disease, and believe it or not I have found more issues with just boiling versus a saltwater baths (as our Aquarium Driftwood Page suggests) Often it is Aeromonas that is brought in by Driftwood Columnaris is more common to stress, but this does not just include stress from pH swings, but fish attacking others, large ammonia swings (not .5 ppm), as well as oxidative stress from a constant high Redox (which Wonder Shells or similar help address, but can also be caused by too large of a water change with CERTAIN high mV Redox water) Please see: Columnaris AeromonasBTW; Thanks everyone for jumping in and giving your thoughts too Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 21, 2012 22:19:18 GMT -5
I just spent I don't know how long writing a response and attaching a picture and the board lost it. It's too late to start again. From now on, I'm going to write my messages in an email and then post them, so this doesn't happen again. Don't know when I'll get another chance. Geez... Maybe I'll try just the pictures. Hopefully here's on of Bodhi just after I got him, before his color bloomed. -Donna Attachments:
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 21, 2012 22:21:49 GMT -5
OK...that worked, so here's one from sometime during(?) the Pima/Melafix treatment. Attachments:
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 21, 2012 22:38:32 GMT -5
And here's one I just took this evening. I had a heck of a time getting anything that was remotely viewable. The water is tinted yellow from the Furan 2 and it was like he knew that my camera has a delay and he kept waiting for the exact right moment to move and blur the picture. He fanned his fins numerous times, but again, I just couldn't get a decent shot. I'll get back to you about plants, driftwood and whatever as soon as I can. Hopefully I'll remember a fraction of what I wrote. I need some sleep... -Donna P.S. Is there any way to put multiple pictures up in a single post? P.P.S. The board lost this message as well, but I just discovered that if I hit my back button, it's still there. I could've saved my earlier message. Drat... Attachments:
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 21, 2012 22:46:26 GMT -5
Well I'll be...I just found my original note in another window...not sure how that happened, but here it is. I noticed that the last picture blew up too large, so here it is smaller: Thanks Lori, Parker002 and Carl, As best I could tell, my 5 gal. tank was cycled sometime in mid to late February. Again, my Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite were all at zero up until a couple of weeks ago, around the end of my Pimafix/Melarfix treatment...most likely because I'd removed the mechanical filter (due to carbon content), so there was a lot of detritus that accumulated. Carl suggested that I remove the carbon, which I did for the current treatment. Prior to the fin rot, he seemed to be doing fine...and still acts perfectly normal. I thought I was doing a pretty good job of leaving things alone and was just doing weekly 20% water changes with tap water, although there was a 3-day period at the end of February, when I did three 10% water changes w/ RO water, at someone's suggestion from a local aquarium shop. The pH went down marginally each time and then right back up, so I opted not to continue. The driftwood was added on 3/10/12 and I first noticed the fin rot on 4/7. As I said before, I got the driftwood presoaked from a pet shop. I have no idea what they did to prepare it beforehand. I did notice brown algae the day before (4/7) and was instructed to cut back on my lighting to about 6 hours a day, and that seems to have done the trick. Don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but figured I'd mention it. By the way, I keep pretty detailed records or I wouldn't remember any of this, as far as dates go anyway. I was thinking about plants, but I've never been particularly good with houseplants, so figured I'd best avoid the aquatic variety. I'll give it some more thought though...just so long as I can be assured that anything I bring in won't also be harboring some other bug. It's not like quarantining it (or driftwood for that matter) will help. -Donna Attachments:
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Post by parker002 on May 22, 2012 8:27:25 GMT -5
Carl has details on his site about how to treat aquatic plants before adding them to your tank. A mild bleach solution works great, especially to prevent the introduction of snails. As for comparing aquatic plants to house plants, just keep in mind that the #1 reason house plants die is because you forget to WATER them.
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