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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 22, 2012 10:32:31 GMT -5
Well I'll be...I just found my original note in another window...not sure how that happened, but here it is. I noticed that the last picture blew up too large, so here it is smaller: Thanks Lori, Parker002 and Carl, As best I could tell, my 5 gal. tank was cycled sometime in mid to late February. Again, my Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite were all at zero up until a couple of weeks ago, around the end of my Pimafix/Melarfix treatment...most likely because I'd removed the mechanical filter (due to carbon content), so there was a lot of detritus that accumulated. Carl suggested that I remove the carbon, which I did for the current treatment. Prior to the fin rot, he seemed to be doing fine...and still acts perfectly normal. I thought I was doing a pretty good job of leaving things alone and was just doing weekly 20% water changes with tap water, although there was a 3-day period at the end of February, when I did three 10% water changes w/ RO water, at someone's suggestion from a local aquarium shop. The pH went down marginally each time and then right back up, so I opted not to continue. The driftwood was added on 3/10/12 and I first noticed the fin rot on 4/7. As I said before, I got the driftwood presoaked from a pet shop. I have no idea what they did to prepare it beforehand. I did notice brown algae the day before (4/7) and was instructed to cut back on my lighting to about 6 hours a day, and that seems to have done the trick. Don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but figured I'd mention it. By the way, I keep pretty detailed records or I wouldn't remember any of this, as far as dates go anyway. I was thinking about plants, but I've never been particularly good with houseplants, so figured I'd best avoid the aquatic variety. I'll give it some more thought though...just so long as I can be assured that anything I bring in won't also be harboring some other bug. It's not like quarantining it (or driftwood for that matter) will help. -Donna Donna...(secret to house plants is FISH WATER ...) Aquatic plants are easy (low level are easiest). As parker noted, JF grows slowly but produces fast. I tend to throw away a lot of shoots because I don't like the look. I to have Wisteria, but that is NOT a beginner plant. I think for you, Wendtti would be the best choice for your sized tank. You can find Green or Red Wendtti at most pet stores (I got mine from Walmart. Walmart's come in a fiber planter. I always pull the fiber off (pain in the rear, but I don't want to add anything that might hurt the fish). As far as cleaning, I think a salt bath would work? ?? I use a LOT stronger dip, but I won't recommend that to you Lori
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Post by Carl on May 22, 2012 10:48:53 GMT -5
Your Betta is really beautiful, so I can certainly understand your frustration. The pictures do not provide any "smoking gun" evidence for me, however as Suzie Q suggested, Columnaris Bacterium may be the culprit (please read the Columnaris Article as well as the Betta Fin Rot Article if you have not as of yet) Stress is the most common cause (assuming Columnaris), so I have my doubts the problem is with your driftwood, although I am curious as to why your Driftwood has not provided an acid counter to your carbonate hardness (KH)Just to be sure though, you can section your driftwood with a saw to check for any rot or saprolegnia growth. Your timeline also does not indicate an issue with the driftwood, however it does indicate and issue with possible stress from changes in chemistry from RO water use. Did you add any electrolytes when adding RO or a water conditioner? This is obviously a mute point now though, and as others have stated I would try not to worry about this aspect for now. Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 22, 2012 23:16:19 GMT -5
Thank you, Lori & Carl, So I can water my plants with fish water?? Who'd'a thought? My problem with plants isn't over or under watering. It's never getting around to repotting or even feeding the poor things, but I assume the fish water would help with the latter. I'm not sure how I'd be with the additional stuff needed for aquatic plants, but again, I'll look into it after I'm through this round of treatments. I completed day 8 this evening, so he's had 8 baths of Kanaplex, Methylene Blue and salt, and the tank has been treated daily with Furan 2 and every other day for 4 doses of Kanaplex. Again, according to the box, it's a maximum of 3 doses, but I'd already done the 4th before hearing back, so I've discontinued as of then. The Furan 2 says I can do 2 rounds of 4 doses, which would put the one I just did as the final dose, but everyone seems to be pushing 10 days...or is that for the bath? Yeah, I was going along with the Columnaris idea as well and have read both the Columnaris and Betta Fin Rot articles more than once. Of course my memory stinks, so I have to keep referring to them. I got the driftwood to help counter the hardness, but as you mentioned, Carl, it hasn't helped much. So I should section it off into a bunch of smaller pieces to check for any nasty stuff? It's only about 8" long and that will certainly ruin the "look", but I guess I shouldn't take any chances. I wanted to get some Bio Lif with my last order, but it was out of stock at the time (and still is). Don't know if that'll help either and I'm not sure how I feel about running my tank without carbon, since that's what the manufacturer recommends (although I saw something on the product page about using a teaspoon for a 5-10 gal tank after 2-5 days). Obviously, I'd need to use only a small section of it. Assuming I can get any at some point, do I need to contain it in something? Maybe stuff it in the filter pack that I removed the carbon from or under it? I can't alter the strength of the water flow, so that is what it is. Also, I'm going through the small Wonder Shells rather quickly (5 days?) and will need to order more before too long. Would the mediums be too much for my tank size? No, I didn't use anything with the RO water when I did those 3 water changes, as the aquarium lady that gave me directions for doing it, never mentioned anything. When I went back to the same place weeks later, looking for medicines and mentioned Wonder Shells, they didn't know what they were and didn't think they were necessary. I did those water changes at the end of February though. Would it really take until early April for the fin rot to show up because of it? I have, however, been using the SeaChem Replenish (and Prime) in the Tap/RO water mix and, of course, the Wonder Shells in the tank since I started this round of treatments. Because I didn't have a chance to research what is a good KH range for Bettas (I've since spotted KH 50-150), I had to make a decision and opted to do 20% water changes with 20% RO (for the past 2 nights now) and I'm sticking with it for the time being. Hopefully my numbers won't pop up drastically, but I figure it can't be any worse than switching back to straight tap water. Once this is done, assuming he doesn't get any worse, I figured I'd go to once weekly 20% water changes with the same parameters. In the meantime, I have to find something wide enough to soak his decor in without having to use gallons of water. I used a bucket last time and ended up with way too much chlorinated water to dispose of. -Donna
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Post by Carl on May 23, 2012 10:23:59 GMT -5
This is a bit of a stretch, but for Columnaris I have seen stressors take some time to show up as an infection.
It does not need to be Wonder shells by, rather any source such as Replenish, Aragomix (although this can later KH even higher), Equilibrium, or similar. I have found Wonder shells to be a simple constant source of positive mineral ions, but it is not the only method. I am more shocked that this person did not mention at least SOME method
This is good
Do not let me get you over worried. AS I noted I believe the driftwood is not too likely since the more likely pathogens to emerge would be Aeromonas or Saprolegnia and your fish does not show this (nor does the timeline).
If anything, sectioning or at least cutting off a few small discrete pieces might help product more surface for acid buffering.
You are doing fine. At this point only the bath MIGHT need to go 10 days (generally baths are performed 7-10 days as needed) Also you might consider a swab with Hydrogen Peroxide on the damaged fins.
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 23, 2012 15:43:19 GMT -5
Much appreciated, Carl!! I do like the idea of the Wonder Shells giving out a steady stream of mineral ions. Would the medium size be OK for my 5 gallon tank? I'll continue with the Replenish whenever I'm doing a water change involving RO water...which should be for the foreeable future. Yeah, I'm a bit perturbed myself... I'll try the discrete pieces. I think maybe I'll stop the in-tank treatment then, plug his carbon filter back in and finish up the 10 days worth of baths. Since it would be relatively easy to do after the bath, just before I put the breeder box back in the tank, I'll try swabbing his fins with Hydrogen Peroxide...assuming what I have is appropriate. It's a store brand 3% topical solution (stabilized). One treatment? Just gotta be careful to keep it away from his gills. Speaking of filters, what's the best way to store a filter that's been swapped out, but that you may want to use again in the future? I've been keeping the carbon filter in a little container of tank water and swapping it back into the tank periodically, for an hour before every 2 or 3 treatments. Now it'll be going back in and I'd like to keep the carbonless one somewhere. Can I just let it dry out? Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!! I needed that... -Donna
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Post by Carl on May 23, 2012 18:19:02 GMT -5
Considering your tap water, the only reason to use the Wonder Shells IS for mineral cations, so a minimal amount is all that is needed. So with that in mind I would use only 1/4 block (it does not need to be a perfect 1/4 either)
I have never established an exact pattern for swabbing, but what I can say is once a day until some improvement is noticed, but this improvement need not be 100%, only enough improvement so as to check infection (similar as to how you would use hydrogen peroxide on your own wound/cut.
Also keep in mind that swabbing itself is somewhat stressful, so we only want to do this as long as necessary, not a day more.
Yes
Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 23, 2012 22:42:41 GMT -5
Thanks, yet again, Carl!
A 1/4 small block or a medium? A whole small one has been lasting me 3-5 days before it's reduced to a 1/4 size, at which point I pulled out the 1st one. I think the package said to remove it once it got to 1/4 size. Can I assume it's going so quickly because, in spite of the hardness, the water is so depleted of positive cations?
I feel kinda stupid asking, but what kind of improvement? Growing fins? A lack of further fin rot? What am I looking for?
---------Later------------
Hmmm....I'm thinking maybe I'd better stop the baths as well. He's had 8 of them. I noticed he was less mobile in the bath yesterday and figured he was just getting used to it and hanging out, but both my husband and I have noticed that he's hiding in the little ceramic log and lying on the bottom more, swimming less and just acting kinda fatigued, particularly after this last round. I opted not to do the swabbing this last time, so as not to stress him further. We'll see how he's doing tomorrow, now that the carbon filter is back in and can clear out the meds. I'll leave the breeder box in for a while yet, if only so I can do the swabbing, if he's up to it. Hope I haven't overdone it...
-Donna
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Post by parker002 on May 24, 2012 8:31:36 GMT -5
Make sure you're not putting the Wonder Shell in an area of high circulation as that will accelerate dissolution.
I use medium Wonder Shells in my daughter's 14G tank and they last almost a MONTH.
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 8:38:53 GMT -5
Uh oh...for the first time ever, Bodhi refused food this morning. I'm going to try again before I leave for work, but I dunno... He's definitely lethargic and, while he did finally come up to the top to check out his little food scoop, he kept swimming to the pellet and then by-passing it. Hopefully I can come home at lunch time and check on him. -Donna
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Post by parker002 on May 24, 2012 11:06:22 GMT -5
If you're using betta pellets and he won't eat them, you could try feeding frozen bloodworms. Freeze-dried are okay too but my fish much prefer frozen over freeze-dried.
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 12:24:00 GMT -5
I did manage to try to feed him again before I left for work and he was behaving more normally and did eat his pellet. I have frozen brine and freeze-dried blood worms (that I use for his 2nd meal of the day), but didn't have time to deal with that this morning. He normally scoffs the pellets right up though.
-Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 12:44:30 GMT -5
Crap!!! I just looked in on him as I was about to run back to work and he looks all bloated! I won't be back until after 6:00, so can't do anything until then, but...HELP!!!
-Donna
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 24, 2012 13:02:17 GMT -5
How warm is his water? Is he looking bloated...has he pooped recently?
I wouldn't recommend ANY of the freeze dried unless you plan on soaking them with meds to try and get meds into him. (JMO)
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 17:42:33 GMT -5
I have no idea what the temperature is in the tank. The heater is set at 74°, the in-tank thermometer says 80° and the thermometer I use to heat the change water says 77°. No doubt if I still had my first thermometer (I broke it), it'd say something else.
Yes...if possible, he looks more bloated than before. I've never seen him poop, so I can't answer that either. To be honest, I'm surprised he's not acting really distressed (actually, I'm surprised he's still alive...). He still seems lethargic, although he did just swim right up to see his food scoop when I presented it (no food). As soon as I took it away, he settled back down to the bottom.
-Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 18:20:07 GMT -5
OK...I found something on dropsy in bettas and it had pictures of the bloating with raised scales. I pulled out a flashlight so I could see better, but I'm not sure if they're raised or not. Certainly not as much as in the pictures. It says there is no treatment. www.bettatalk.com/betta_diseases.htmHowever, I found Methylene Blue and salt listed as a treatment on an AAP page and it said: *As a medicated bath for Dropsy or any other internal malady such as Swim Bladder problems (as MB is easily tissue absorbed).and... DOSAGE: 1 teaspoon of a 2.303% solution per 10 gallons every other day for 10 days with water changes before each treatment.Of course, I've been doing this for the past 8 days for the fin rot (along with Kanaplex). I had just decided that maybe I should stop because he was getting lethargic and his appetite was being affected. Should I start all over again with just the Methylene Blue and the salt? Geez...I was SO looking forward to finishing that. The breeder box is too big to fit through the opening in the hood frame (the light assembly lifts up via a hinge), so I have to lift the whole thing up and hold it with one hand, while putting the breeder box in and out of the tank with the other and simultaneously feeding the heater cord through as well. And because the light assembly is tipped back, I can barely see what I'm doing. Same thing for when I'm siphoning water and otherwise cleaning the tank. The hood fits really snugly and keeps out drafts, but otherwise it's a royal pain in the butt. -Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 18:51:16 GMT -5
Quick reponse to Reply #27 (I missed it before): I put the Wonder Shells at the opposite end of the tank, but they're still dissolving really quickly. -Donna
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Post by Carl on May 24, 2012 18:56:42 GMT -5
I totally agree with Suzie'Qs point as to FD foods; they must be soaked and even then adding medications too this soaking helps as well (Kanamyacin, Neomycin, or Metronidazole) I doubt you have dropsy unless you have the classic pine-coning look. As for a cure should you have dropsy, it is difficult, but I disagree with the article you pasted as I HAVE effected a cure. Admittedly in only about 25% of the cases and then only caught reasonably early with aggressive "cocktail" treatments. See our Aquarium Answers Article about Dropsy: Dropsy in FishAs Suzie Q noted, watch your temperature. I personally have found those little Hydor under gravel heaters great for tanks under 5 gallons, although in summer these generally need to be unplugged Carl
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 19:36:06 GMT -5
I read the Dropsy article and noticed the following:
Hmmm...I have noticed his color has been faded of late, he wouldn't eat for a while this morning, he is bloated (although more than slightly) and is hiding more. I hope the Melafix didn't start him on this path... (finished 2 week treatment with Pimafix on 5/2).
So, regardless of whether it's dropsy or not, I should start the Methylene Blue, Kanaplex and salt baths (and the in-tank treatment again)...another 7-10 days?
But, as I said before, I have no idea what the temperature is! My 2 thermometers and the heater all read differently. I don't know which one to believe! For what it's worth, I have a Marineland 25 watt submersible heater.
The Dropsy article also states:
I think my filter pump churns out a decent amount of oxygen, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't help to hook up my aeration stuff. I was planning on adding a couple more fish, but that never happened, so it's still packaged up. As far as the dissolved organics, there was that 2 week stretch when I didn't have a filter in the tank, during the Melafix/Pimafix treatments...
-Donna
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Post by bettathanbefore on May 24, 2012 19:47:53 GMT -5
Oops...forgot to mention I was using Kanaplex and Furan 2 in-tank for the fin rot, but I presume it should just be Kanaplex at his point. If I need to add Metronidazole or Maracyn II, I'll have to make another trip somewhere...assuming they have it.
I just can't figure out how he could've gotten this while I was already giving him the treatment that he needs for whatever this is....and right at the end of the treatment, no less!
-Donna
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Post by parker002 on May 24, 2012 20:27:07 GMT -5
I will have to ultimately defer to Carl and Suzie since they are more knowledgeable than I about bettas and diseases in bettas, but it sounds to me like he might be constipated. I have mollies that get constipated from time to time and the symptoms are very similar.
I feed them frozen, shelled peas and/or frozen brine shrimp to alleviate the symptoms.
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