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Post by fishfever on Mar 28, 2009 10:00:38 GMT -5
Tank Size: 10g Age of the tank: 3 months pH: 6.8 Ammonia: 0 NitrAtes: 10ppm nitrites: 0 GH/KH: high (using wonder shells) Temperature: 79 deg F Fish: 2 platys, 1 molly, 5 tetras Symptoms: 1 of the platys is sick. Used to be a voracious eater but now has lots of trouble swimming and eating. Losing lots of weight. Sometimes ends up on her side when trying to swim up for food as an example. Spends alot of time hiding behind plants now (didn't do this before). Had two back to back pregnancies about 3-4 weeks apart; the last being about two weeks ago. I may have caused this problem by feeding live baby brine shrimp probably mixed with alot of unhatched eggs to tank about 1-2 days before this platy began acting strangely. The other platy seems ok but eating less than before; the other fish seem ok. The sick platy seemed to eat alot more of the brine shrimp/eggs than the others. Thinking of isolating this platy to hospital tank with maybe just cooked peas to eat? Are there any medications I can try and does this sound like swim bladder disease caused by eating too many unhatched eggs?
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Post by Carl on Mar 28, 2009 10:31:42 GMT -5
I honestly doubt the unhatched eggs are the issue, as this may simply be "roughage" inside the platy (the thin outer shell of adult brine shrimp is what makes them an excellent food for digestive problems, especially constipation). Is this one of the females that had the fry, if so this is more likely a cause? However even if so, this is not proof or a definitive cause by any means, as there can be other issues at play, even genetics fo which little can be done. I would note that your pH is lower than I would generally keep platys at, but I do not want to get you "chasing" pH either, maybe simply consider adding a small amount of Seachem buffer (such as 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water) each time you change water. Do you use salt? I would definitely use some salt at this point or increase if you do already to as high as 1 teaspoon per gallon (higher is possible if Platys are the only fish). A bath of 30-45 minutes with 2-3 teaspoons of salt per gallon (1/2-3/4 teaspoon per quart) along with Methylene Blue would be very helpful. Your idea with the peas in a hospital tank is excellent as well (it certainly would not hurt at the very least). As for medications, I would wait a few days (other than the Methylene Blue and maybe another medication in the bath such as Metronidazole). After this if no improvement is forthcoming, consider the use of Neomycin used as part of the feeding, as well Metronidazole and/or Kanamycin/Kanplex can be added to the water. The last recommendation of Kanaplex/Metro in the water is what I would consider last though, as I prefer to exhaust the less medication methods first in a problem that is generally slow moving as to being lethal (I would be more aggressive in treatment if the fish seems to be going down hill rapidly) Carl
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Post by babygeige on Mar 28, 2009 10:34:22 GMT -5
Isolation might not be a bad idea. Peas would be good too, then a day or two of fasting just to make sure everything gets cleaned out. I'm sure someone else will come along with more info too just in case I'm missing something, but it definitely sounds like she ate too much. My bettas are good for doing that.
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Post by fishfever on Mar 28, 2009 10:55:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick replies!
Yes Carl this is the platy that had back to back fry 3-4 weeks apart (no males in tank so sperm was stored). The only reason I mentioned the eggs is I found some references on the net that associated brine shrimp egg shells with swim bladder disease but as you know not everything you read on the net is fact! Plus the platy seemed to behave sick only a day or two after feeding the shrimp/eggs and seemed fine before that.
I am using the Malawi buffer to get the pH up to 6.8; normally our tap water is in the 6.2-6.4 range. I could add a small pinch or two extra on the next water change. I am using aquarium salt for the platys/molly although I try to limit it for the sake of the tetras. Probably use about 1.5 tablespoons per 10 gallons. If I isolated her I could up the salt and temperature without bothering the other fish. I also use a non-medicated wonder shell at all times.
I have an unused medicated wonder shell also. Would this substitute for the Methylene Blue if I used it in a small (2.5g) hospital tank?
One final question I forgot to ask - do the symptoms sound like it could spread to other fish or does it sound non-contagious?
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Post by Carl on Mar 28, 2009 12:58:58 GMT -5
babygeige made a good comment IMO, that is she could have simply ate too much, although I still have my doubts as to the problem being what she ate (the BS eggs), so this can work itself out often on its own with some minimal additional care. This would be fine in the hospital tank, however the MB in a Medicated Wonder shell is not enough for a bath. Try increasing the Malawi Buffer for the next water change, however I this MAY only help with prevention, not with the problem at hand. At this point signs do not indicate a pathogenic infection causing this problem ( Aeromonas is the most common), however should symptoms point this way (such as other fish showing similar problems) then tank treatment may become necessary. Carl
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Post by fishfever on Mar 28, 2009 17:15:31 GMT -5
Tried to find Methylene Blue at Pet Smart but they didn't have it; the girl working there had never even heard of it. So will try Pet Land or Petco next.
I've noticed that the sick platy seems to have the most trouble swimming when other fish are swimming nearby; for example when they are fed at the feeding ring she tries to go eat but the water currents from other fish feeding (all the tetras like to hit and run at the food) cause her to tip over on her right side (she always tips over to her right - don't know if that is another clue). The other time she has trouble is making some maneuvers that is not in a straight line with other fish swimming past, again tipping over on her right side.
We're going on a few days vacation tomorrow so have to decide on this hospital tank pretty soon. My current thought is to do the 10 minute? Methylene Blue bath in the hospital tank, assuming I find it. Then replace the bath with regular aquarium water with elevated salt and slightly higher temp for a few days with maybe a few cooked peas (maybe also a partial algae cracker too) for food.
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Post by Carl on Mar 28, 2009 19:04:45 GMT -5
Rather sad that these persons have not even heard of Methylene Blue, as it is not new. The only thing new about MB is more research and re-discovery of many of its beneficial properties (even in other medical uses too). I am not sure if I understand your bath method, but it is best at 30-45 minutes and then the bath water is disposed of. The hospital tank can have a medicated Wonder shell and extra salt, but should not be a bath per say itself. See this article: Aquarium Disease Prevention; BathsCarl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 28, 2009 20:09:25 GMT -5
how long is your vacation? food in a tank left for too long turns bad quickly.
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Post by fishfever on Mar 28, 2009 20:23:10 GMT -5
Carl, yes I was planning to dispose of the bath water. I haven't done a bath before so I wasn't sure of the time I needed to expose the fish. Petland was the only place that had the Methylene Blue (not at either Pet Smart or Petco). Pricier than your store but when you need it you need it! I will try the 30-45 minute bath tonight and then replace it with normal aquarium water (with higher salt) while we are gone (3 1/2 days). The fish seems to be doing a bit better by itself and has an appetite which is a good thing. Also noticed a "string" (that's what my wife and I call them anyway) hanging off of her so if something was in her causing indigestion it's now coming out. ;-)
Bikeguy that is a good point. We will be gone 3 1/2 days so I think a few peas and maybe a partial algae cracker should be okay. Veggies seem to hold up better than fish based food. I will be running a small sponge filter in the hospital tank also.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 28, 2009 20:31:25 GMT -5
they do for sure.....3 days should be okay with veggie matter....i was only concerned for something like a week or 2
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Post by fishfever on Apr 6, 2009 17:04:24 GMT -5
A quick update... gave the Methylene Blue bath before and after the brief vacation. Noted no visible improvement. Then put her in a 10g fry tank with about 30-40 fry (too big for her to eat) for a few days. Fed the fry mostly frozen daphnia which the sick fish also ate after fasting for a day or two. After about two days of eating the daphnia swimming and mobility seemed greatly improved so put her back in the main tank where she seems to be fine so far.
My thinking is the frozen daphnia helped unblock her system (I'm guessing the unhatched brine eggs were the culprit). I read that live/frozen food is helpful for unblocking a constipated fish. The other possibility is that some time simply needed to pass!
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Post by babygeige on Apr 6, 2009 21:35:01 GMT -5
That's good news! Hopefully she'll stay that way!
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Post by Carl on Apr 7, 2009 9:14:12 GMT -5
Good news!
Isolation is almost always a good idea too. Daphnia have a thin outer shell similar to adult brine shrimp that are a natural laxative.
Did you add extra salt to either tank, as salt will also help move fluids throught the body?
Carl
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Post by fishfever on Apr 7, 2009 18:40:11 GMT -5
Thanks, the platy is still doing well and has a good appetite so if not a full recovery it's very close to one.
Yes Carl, when I put her in the hospital tank I raised the temperature a few degrees (I think 82) and increased the salt level (almost double). I didn't think about that but this probably had the laxative effect along with the daphnia a few days later. By the way, maybe you could clear up the aquarium salt (which I think is just plain table salt minus iodide) versus marine salt for use in freshwater tanks. Doesn't marine salt have some important minerals lacking in aquarium salt? Would it be wise to use marine salt and Wonder shells at the same time or would that be overdoing things? Also was thinking of purchasing a salinity meter/hydrometer to measure the S.G. I don't know if this would make sense since it would be so close to 1 for a freshwater tank. But assuming I can find one with high precision and accuracy, I wonder if the mineralization from the Wonder shells would contribute to a higher reading?
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Post by Carl on Apr 7, 2009 18:56:06 GMT -5
Wonder Shells do not add enough minerals to affect a hydrometer, as well the amount of salt generally used in freshwater aquariums will not register on most hydrometers. However a good Refractometer will display very small changes in salt levels. As for marine salt vs. sodium chloride; I generally use water softener salt or Cichlid Salt with Wonder shells as there would be overlapping of minerals provided that would be unnecessary for most freshwater fish. The SeaChem Cichlid Salt also provides important minerals, but does not overlap Wonder shells as much, plus this salt provides important carbonates that Wonder Shells have very little of. This article has a suggested water chemistry for different fish mixes: AQUARIUM GH, KH, Ph, MINERAL CATIONS/ELECTROLYTES; FRESHWATER TANK SET UP SUGGESTIONS FOR WATER CHEMISTRY
Carl
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Post by fishfever on Apr 8, 2009 17:48:05 GMT -5
Thanks Carl, I'm going to try the Cichlid salt as I'm starting to run low on regular aquarium salt. It's somewhat of a pain to keep track of the salt levels while replacing water (for both regular water changes and evaporation). Sometimes I neglect or forget to add the salt when just replenishing due to evaporation since it's a small amount of water. Then I will try to make it up a bit on the next water change. But since I'm not measuring the exact amount of water I'm replacing I usually don't go through great pains to measure the exact amount of salt needed to maintain a certain level. So I'm guessing there is a fair amount of fluxuation (and maybe even a trend in the salinity that I'm not aware of). I measure just about all the other water parameters so I figure I might as well keep track of this one if it's not too much trouble. I'll check into the refractometer idea, thanks!
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 8, 2009 18:02:57 GMT -5
glad to hear your platy is doing better - they are pigs when it comes to eating - try frozen brine shrimp as a treat - also, cooked peas help as a laxative as well I have found
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 9, 2009 10:35:07 GMT -5
Sorry I am late to this thread. Salt does no evaporate with water so you're ok here there. Trying to add salt whenever you do a water change is a good idea though. Glad your platy is doing better. Like Murdock said, peas and brine shrimp helps with swimbladder disorder and also constipation. Good luck with your fish!
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Post by fishfever on Apr 10, 2009 14:46:19 GMT -5
Murdock, you are right about platys being pigs - mollies also don't seem to know when they are full. I've got a good variety of frozen treats including brine shrimp, blood worms, daphnia and mixed stuff. All the fish in the tank really like that stuff as treats. My next food adventure will be to try growing more live food other than brine shrimp.
goldenpuon, you are right about the evaporation. But I still seem to end up having to clean this white film off of all the glass and black plastic surfaces of all the aquariums when I do the regular maintenance.
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Post by babygeige on Apr 11, 2009 10:12:16 GMT -5
Ugh, yeah the white salt film is such a big pain in the butt!
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