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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 3, 2017 12:19:26 GMT -5
I am very sorry my posts have been so lengthy, I am trying to share any little thing that could clue us in on the culprit. Sorry for not answering Carl, but she is in a 10g and I used one full SM medicated wonder shell at a time, with only small 1 gal water changes as per the instructions! I usually only put in 3/4 a SM reg WS but figured a little more would cause no harm with the medicated version. She has had the medicated version now 2 weeks in tank. I actually was conversing with cindil about Orchids salt sensitivity a while ago and wonder if it holds a clue? I put a tbsp salt (AQ) In her 5 gal completely dissolved and it really messed with her. She was frozen in a full flair as if she was stretching every part of her as much as she could. She sat just floating in the water, her pectoral fins weren't even moving. If I hadn't seen her gills moving I would have been sure she was dead! I did 3 back to back to back water changes and a few hours later she was ok. But she sat in the salted water for about 6 hours until I found her as described. If she has this sensitivity to just salt, is there any reason the med WS could be causing stress and hence letting something take hold (still grasping at straws ) I wonder if what your saying would be more true with a fish that already has poor immunity. I help run the only sick fish group on Facebook and I'll have a few people be very harsh about the use of salt. While sometimes it's needed, as per experience, they feel it will harm the fish worse long term. There's no proof, but is what they real preach about. The patch: slowly changing but unsure of why. Not a big deal. Eating: she is struggling with the crumbles, or that's how it appears to me.. She took spirulina brine shrimp with little incident, took biogold pellets in one chew-also no spitting. I am in love with the Carnovire crumbles and she has always preferred it as well, I can't fathom why she struggles to eat it now? I'm sure it's not a picky eater thing, she has happily eaten it for 6 months now! Even the smallest of pieces she eats and then starts stretching her lips and face out, as if she's trying to dislodge something. Then she puffs her mouth out and I see crumbs flushing out her gills and mouth. She comes back for what gets out her mouth, like she wants to eat the food but can't get/keep it down. I have a picky eater (Iris) and when she spits the pellets out nothing comes out her gills like when Orchid does this, I hope this is something someone else has seen before? Facial string: I wish I would have gotten that picture last night! When I woke I checked on orchid imediatly and noticed it had mostly broken off, only a very short piece coming from the nostril hole but looking at her now I can't even see the tiny piece that remained (with my plain sight). I have a weird question about this: do betta sinus holes have any connection to their gills or mouth (like humans?) The string looked organic, plant or maybe even food? With Orchids flushing of the food out her gills and mouth is there any way something could get caught in the cavity or possibly lodged in from the outside?!?!? I probably sound crazy. Eyes: still looking bulgey and has some very thin facial membranes, I am leaning towards needing Epsom salt baths for this. New symptom: fin clamping. I have been noticing it more frequently but hoped it was her trying to find a place without flow to sleep, now it's looking like an issue. No signs of velvet, or ich. She is still my affectionate playful girl, who seems much less bothered by these symptoms then I am- feces is healthy, she's a little pudge but no bloating, breathing well and, well she's getting some food down. My gut serves me and it's telling me I am trying to connect the dots with many unrelated symptoms. It's likely a few different things as opposed to one problem with one cure. I just wish i could figure out just one of them *sigh* Spitting food out the gils is more normal with the crumble food. Part, because when they get a chunk and bite down, it just breaks apart. I don't think it's a problem, unless the chunks are to large and the fish is already weak. It may not be in the mode to take a large chunk and case the pieces that come out the gills. Im not sure what else to recommend, maybe Carl does.
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Post by childofiam on Feb 3, 2017 13:17:24 GMT -5
I noticed your readings of pH 7.8, KH 6 and GH of 21. I believe most of your problems are stress induced because of the GH of 21. Betta's like the acidic soft water in the pH range 6.2 to 6.8 and a GH of 6 to 8. This is the reason almond leaves are recommended because of the acids released.
Richard
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Post by Carl on Feb 3, 2017 17:02:28 GMT -5
Sorry for not answering Carl, but she is in a 10g and I used one full SM medicated wonder shell at a time, with only small 1 gal water changes as per the instructions! I usually only put in 3/4 a SM reg WS but figured a little more would cause no harm with the medicated version. She has had the medicated version now 2 weeks in tank. I was thinking you might be using too much, but as it turns out you are not using enough of the Medicated version to do any good. Even small amounts of regular AAP Wonder Shells help via adding mineral Cations which for a Betta are not needed in large quantities normally. However with Medicated Wonder Shells, without the proper amount it is the same as taking 1/4 the medicine your DR. recommends. From the web page: "4-5 for a 10 gallon aquarium"www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html#medicatedSodium Chloride (salt) tolerance can vary from fish to fish even within the same species (as per the University of Auburn study I cite). I have seen Bettas tolerate 1 teaspoon per gallon with no trouble, but obviously Orchid cannot This is not all that uncommon with a weak & sick fish. It is possible the rough texture is hurting the inside of the mouth.. Softening in water before feeding may help here (although it may sink quite quickly) The Spirulina Brine Shrimp is an excellent food for sick fish as it is easy to take in This may be a parasite residing in this cavity. Adding PraziPro might be suggested Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/TetraJungleHikari.html#praziproThe baths and bringing the Medicated Wonder Shells up to full dose may help This is good! Carl
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 3, 2017 18:53:37 GMT -5
Thank you devonjohnsgard I appreciate the quick response! I'm not sure about the whole "betta salt sensitivity" issue- every betta has been different. I think some just need slower introduction and more time to adjust to the change(?) That makes perfect sense about the crumbles, the consistency is what makes her be able to flush it out her gills. the good news is this morning she took all her food with little issue, and I fed her the AAP crumbles, so I'll see how dinner goes and I'll try wetting the food first. I'm going to give her an Epsom salt bath tonight while I do her water change, in an attempt to help her eyes/face. Given what happened with the AQ salt, any suggestions on dosing and length of the bath- I don't want to stress her any extra. Also, I was thinking of adding methylene blue to her bath as well- do you think this would be beneficial or be too much? Edit: I started my post a few hours ago and did not see Carls responses. I will up the med WS now, I wasn't sure if it would bother her, and the printout that is in my MED WS says only: "We recommend the Med WS for 15-35 gal aquariums (occasionally 10 gallon tanks too)..." so I assumed that meant the small was for everything below the 15 gallon- I didn't take into consideration how many ^smh^ I should have looked here first! It's funny how I recommend Prazipro rather frequently but forget to use it when I don't have it on hand. I will reread the articles and decide if that's the best explaination.
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 4, 2017 3:38:15 GMT -5
I noticed your readings of pH 7.8, KH 6 and GH of 21. I believe most of your problems are stress induced because of the GH of 21. Betta's like the acidic soft water in the pH range 6.2 to 6.8 and a GH of 6 to 8. This is the reason almond leaves are recommended because of the acids released. Richard I have always used wonder shells and attributed the high GH to their use, I never thought of it as a stressor like that. I have Indian Almond Leaves, you think I should use them regularly? I do know they release their acid very slowly, I recall from an AAP article- so I thought they would make such little change and so slowly that I'd get better use of them for tannins/stress reducer and mild antiseptic as needed. I have always tried to fuss with my water parameters as little as possible as long as they are stable and healthy- but have often wondered if my GH was too high... idk. I primarily keep bettas and it's well known they often have weak genetics, poor health, low immunity, to name just a few. I work hard to keep to every principle of the "AQUARIUM DISEASE PREVENTION; Proven Steps for a Healthy Aquarium (Fresh or Saltwater)" article, and have had measurable success. However, I have only one missing piece in (all) my tanks: the UV sterilizer. I keep tanks from 5.5-20 gallons, so I am short on space in tank. I settled on the SunSun submersible 9W, but have been hesitating to buy (actually re-buy, I got one as a gift and it was from amazon, so it was not the one I want from AAP with the upgraded parts and better dwell time. I gently explained and asked him to return it, and once the return is complete I am getting the better one from AAP). My question is this: knowing what we do about betta genes and their general poor health, do you think a UV sterilizer could help give that extra push to maintain health, or achieve recovery? And secondly, do you think this model (SunSun submersible 9W) is worth buying for what I'm using it for (single occupant fish tanks, trying to keep them healthy and avoid disease)? I would love to get something nicer, however my tanks are too small and I don't have the setup, room, or access for plumbing, tubes, and the whole setup. I pretty much have to get something "plug and play" as the article calls it, and from what I've read on all the UV articles on AAP- this one seems to be the only true level 1 sterilizer in its class. I know you are the "gadget" guy, and know much about water chemistry Richard, and would love your opinion on this! (Thanks again)
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Post by childofiam on Feb 4, 2017 11:03:42 GMT -5
90% of everything I know, I have learned from Carl and Devon and will always follow their professional knowledge. The AAP suggested UV sterilizes are my recommendation because they don't sell anything they have not tested to be true. Yes a high quality UV will help a great deal with maintaining healthy water. You also need to replace these bulbs every six months. I place a sticker on my uv's with bulb dates and also place a note in the log book six months from install as a reminder. Every month I turn off my UV and add Stability to the tank. I will not turn them back on for 48 hours and when I do, I see a change in the ORP & RH values which tells me they do make a big difference in H2O quality. The SunSun 9w is a good UV from AAP because they use the right kind of bulbs in them unlike the ones you find on eBay and Amazon.
I use WS in my soft water Discus tanks in this manner; First I use pure RO water and then I add back some of the RO waste to bring my KH up to 3 dkh . I then add Replenish to bring my GH up to 4dkh. I have two 32 gallon plastic cans I store the water in for 24 to 48 hours with pumps circulating to gas out CO2 & O2 exchange. In one can I heat to my tank H2O temps of 84 deg. I use the wonder shell in my tanks to bring my GH up to 6 dkh And if my GH rises higher than this I do a bit larger H2O change to bring the GH back down, this assures me that I am replenishing the calcium and magnesium in the water without the building up of other minerals that have given up their + ions I found that a 1/4 of a large wonder shell will do this in the tanks. I test everyday and keep a log book on every tank because my KH can fall fast and if it does I add RO waste water to the tank to bring the KH back up to 3 dkh. You can do this also with two options. 1.) Purchase a TMC RO system from AAP. 2.) Purchase RO water by the 5 gallon jug and dump it in a new plastic can that will hold enough water to do H2O changes and then add back your Prime treated tap water to bring your KH up to a 3 or 4 and Replenish to bring your GH up to 3 or 4 and use a fraction of wonder shell to maintain a GH of 6. It took time for me to figure out how much of a WS I needed in the tank. Because I test daily my KH and GH in my tanks and do H2O changes on a regular basis I wait till my GH drops 1 dkh before I add more wonder shell. You should use almond leaves in your tanks all the time and replace them with new ones when recommended. This keeps the acids flowing and the TDS's down. Sadly, there is nothing we can do for weak genetics in Betts's from LPS and the poor health and low immunity in most cases is how the fish lived before you purchased it. I have seen at the LPS Betts's in extremely dirty water sitting on a cart as the employee was dumping out the water, cleaning the cup and putting the fish with clean water back in the cup to sell as a healthy fish. Todays LPS corporations don't care about the fish's health they sell, if fact I heard it said once "If the fish we sell lived a long time, we would go out of business selling fish".
My daughter breed and raised Betta's to sell to all her friends for a number of years and made great money at it, but has quit because of her expertise in fighting insurance companies and making them pay what they are suppose to pay, it is strange because she knows their policies better than they do. Her and her husband own a home and travel a lot so she has no time any more. Her success with Betta's was due to purchasing Betta's from over seas. She purchased pure strains that had no inbreeding, from over seas companies in Asia. They cost more but you will know what you have. Like your quote from Bren'e Brown... The environment WILL pull the trigger on inbreeding at some point.
Have you ever thought about purchasing a long aquarium and dividing it with frosted panels of glass from one side to the other so the water will travel through every section like a sump. With this kind of set up you could use one filtering canister and one uv sterilizer out side of the tank? I have also developed a rail system to do this for 75 gallon breeding tanks that have been divided.
Richard
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Post by Carl on Feb 4, 2017 13:31:48 GMT -5
90% of everything I know, I have learned from Carl and Devon and will always follow their professional knowledge. The AAP suggested UV sterilizes are my recommendation because they don't sell anything they have not tested to be true. Yes a high quality UV will help a great deal with maintaining healthy water. You also need to replace these bulbs every six months. I place a sticker on my uv's with bulb dates and also place a note in the log book six months from install as a reminder. Every month I turn off my UV and add Stability to the tank. I will not turn them back on for 48 hours and when I do, I see a change in the ORP & RH values which tells me they do make a big difference in H2O quality. The SunSun 9w is a good UV from AAP because they use the right kind of bulbs in them unlike the ones you find on eBay and Amazon. A good UV Sterilizer goes a long ways, if only for their affect on oxidizers in the water that can harm fish long term This is definitely my recommendation for optimal Betta care whenever practical. This is why I also disagree with the instructions peddled by Weco and uniformed sellers of the Wonder Shell outside of AAP. Often for many fish such as Bettas, Discus, Ram Cichlids, Angels, etc, only 1/4 or even less of a "full dose" of Wonder Shells is needed to get their benefits. However, often too much is made of a high GH even for Amazon River fish or Bettas (which live in highly variable environments) From: www.researchgate.net/publication/307167688_MEMBRANE_PERMEABILITY_CALCIUM_AND_OSMOTIC_PRESSURE_In_Wurts_W_A_1987_An_evaluation_of_specific_ionic_and_growth_parameters_affecting_the_feasibility_of_commercially_producing_red_drum_Sciaenops_ocellaAlso cited here: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#ghFurther Reading: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/betta-habitat.htmlSadly true IMO This is something I have long used and recommended whenever possible. This allows the practical use of a good in-line UV Sterilizer. The only issue with this idea comes from some friends with more expertise than me in breeding Bettas and that is the males release hormones that MAY cause some breeding and growth issues. However water changes and/or a constant refill system can alleviate this to some degree.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 4, 2017 14:28:08 GMT -5
I'm going to give her an Epsom salt bath tonight while I do her water change, in an attempt to help her eyes/face. Given what happened with the AQ salt, any suggestions on dosing and length of the bath- I don't want to stress her any extra. Also, I was thinking of adding methylene blue to her bath as well- do you think this would be beneficial or be too much? Methylene Blue is the main part of the baths, so I would say so. It's a very non-harsh treatment. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html
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Post by bettarescue on Feb 5, 2017 2:27:40 GMT -5
I'm sorry for my lack of clarity devonjohnsgard what I MEANT to say, was if the AQ salt, Epsom salt, and methylene blue would all be too much in one bath with her suspected salt sensitivity? And do you think I should use lower amounts then 2 tsp per gallon of salt? Wow childofiam your an amazing fish keeper! Richard- you work very hard to keep an incredibly healthy and well maintained environment for your fish, I am genuinely impressed. You gave me some great ideas (I will be asking for help in the near future on the whole, 20 long with frosted glass idea as I am in the works of beginning my first female betta sorority and will need guidance with the In line UV and the entire setup). Orchid is my problem child (she's also my favorite) and I will most likely be keeping her alone as she needs special attention often. At the moment I am also short on out-of-tank space as well, and am going to get the sunsun internal for her in her 10g. She does use all of her tank space and the tank may become too crowded with the submersible wich leaves me to yet another tank upgrade, 20 gal for a betta is too much even for Orchid who constantly patrolling and playing in her area, hunting detritus worms, etc in her 10g. Plus I am also interested seeing the difference in the two units, if the fish stay healthier with one vs the other. @carl- what would your recommendation be for this situation? I am pretty settled with my submersible selection for her single occupant tank, but know it's not the top of the line. I'm limited to this style of UV sterilizer (when it comes to this specific tank), so as far as internal/submersable; the SunSun is the best AAP offers right (I buy all my products from you guys, so no worry of lower quality products from parasite retailers)? I will also be using this tank and it's equptmwnt down the line (like, in a couple years) and would ideally like to have flexibility for a single occupant dwarf puffer tank- and was hoping this would work in that scenario as well(?)!
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Post by childofiam on Feb 5, 2017 7:12:27 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Feb 6, 2017 10:19:41 GMT -5
Here is a key point from the article cited: "Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier. Intercellular junctions are specialized areas of attachment between epithelial cells preventing the loss of ions and fluids from the interstitial area beneath (Bloom and Fawcett, 1975). It has been postulated that cell membranes and intercellular junctions are dependent on calcium for normal function (Loewenstein, 1966; Guyton, 1971; Bloom and Fawcett, 1975). "What I have not found is the balance of when there is too much calcium per particular fish (other than a GH of 500ppm) Carl
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Post by childofiam on Feb 6, 2017 12:03:14 GMT -5
Here is a key point from the article cited: "Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier. Intercellular junctions are specialized areas of attachment between epithelial cells preventing the loss of ions and fluids from the interstitial area beneath (Bloom and Fawcett, 1975). It has been postulated that cell membranes and intercellular junctions are dependent on calcium for normal function (Loewenstein, 1966; Guyton, 1971; Bloom and Fawcett, 1975). "What I have not found is the balance of when there is too much calcium per particular fish (other than a GH of 500ppm) Carl From what I have been reading about spawning habits of Discus, they begin to go into spawning by all of the fresh water coming into the Amazon river during the monsoon seasons. It is when the rains have been falling and the ground becomes so saturated that the water doesn't pick up minerals and there is a sudden drop of ions in the river with a increase of acids the discus actually spawn. In this time the eggs are able to hatch because of the absents of calcium in the water. Calcium causes a crust to form around the eggs preventing O2 exchange and the embryo suffocates. Wild caught Discus have adapted to low KH and GH values in these very clean water they are found in. This is why they are only found in certain regions of the Amazon basin. BUT The reason there is a lot of confusion on the web about raising Discus today is because domestically raised Discus are not adapted to Amazon water and would die very quickly if placed in the rivers with wild ones. Domestic Discus have adapted to harder water we use for drinking so keeping a Domestic Discus in KH lower than 50 ppm and GH lower than 100 ppm is not good for their long term health. I have read a lot about watching your TDS in spawning tanks. They say to start with 80 ppm and if nothing happens drop down to 60 and if nothing happens there drop to 40 ppm. If nothing happens at 40 ppm then you have incompatible fish, most probably two females or a sterile male as a result of inbreeding. Here is what you don't hear about the ppm... no one gives KH ppm or GH ppm information. It is something you have to work out yourself based on you water supply. If I have a KH of 50 ppm for stable pH then that only gives me 30 ppm for GH. This 30 ppm of GH for me is a 2 dkh using Seachems Discus Trace. A 1 dkh will drop my total ppm to 68 ppm. To go lower than this I have to drop the KH. Because 50% water changes or more are going on every day the KH doesn't have enough time to burn off and destabilize the pH. The long term professional breeders are the ones that use the ppm scale spawning Discus but won't give you their KH, GH ratio. This is where I figured out that I need to keep the pH stable or everyone dies, so I have to have 50 ppm of buffers in the water to maintain stability and play with my GH. Gh levels this low are only for spawning and after the eggs hatch the GH needs to rise back to a 100 ppm for the Fry health and growth as well as for the parents. This is the process I am going to try; I will leave my KH at 50 ppm with 50% H2O changes daily and then drop my GH down for a 24 hour period to 4dkh until they start acting like they are going to spawn, if they show interest then I will drop the GH down to 2 dkh. If nothing happens after a few day then I will revise the GH back to 100 ppm for a week and then start over. They say it is the sudden drop of ions in the rivers that cause the wild Discus to spawning so this must be so for domestic Discus too. Using the Seneye to watch my pH will help a lot here I believe. Any thoughts... Richard
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Post by Carl on Feb 6, 2017 14:16:27 GMT -5
From what I have been reading about spawning habits of Discus, they begin to go into spawning by all of the fresh water coming into the Amazon river during the monsoon seasons. It is when the rains have been falling and the ground becomes so saturated that the water doesn't pick up minerals and there is a sudden drop of ions in the river with a increase of acids the discus actually spawn. In this time the eggs are able to hatch because of the absents of calcium in the water. Calcium causes a crust to form around the eggs preventing O2 exchange and the embryo suffocates. Wild caught Discus have adapted to low KH and GH values in these very clean water they are found in. This is why they are only found in certain regions of the Amazon basin. I have read this too and have had a Discus breeder tell me similar (although he did not chase pH values). In working with a private breeder, a similar protocal was followed This short term more oxidative state is typical in many aspects of life in general. As not only the calcium forming a crust an issue, but this temporary change in water chemistry may also inhibit fungus growth too. Think Maracyn Oxy for fungus treatment. Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/FritzMardelKordon.html#maracynoxyAn analogy (albeit flawed) is how our stomach is highly oxidative, but as soon as food hits our upper intestines, our body switches to alkaline (I have to take an enteric coated treatment for my SIBO that only opens in the upper GI) I would agree with this too based on my friend who used alkaline Los Angeles water for his commercial discus breeding operation. However if memory serves me correctly, I do believe he still made changes to stimulate breeding (what my memory is failing me at this time) This makes sense. However I do know that my commercial breeder friend as well as a private breeder I worked with did not concern themselves with TDS other than for measuring RO water quality I only listen and observed how this commercial breeder operated, but with this private breeder, I more had my hands on as I helped him set up his tanks and checked in couple weeks (he was in charge, but I was the professional advisor for the system in general, a very different relationship from most clients where the customer only fed and nothing more). I honestly do not remember the numbers (sorry), but I do know that we did indeed lower KH and GH. We used a small dose of Wonder Shells (1/4), but ceased use entirely during this breeding cycle (which was started with water changes using adjusted RO water) BTW, this private breeders name was Richard too (he though was a pathologist with Orange County CA.) Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 6, 2017 16:40:48 GMT -5
I'm sorry for my lack of clarity devonjohnsgard what I MEANT to say, was if the AQ salt, Epsom salt, and methylene blue would all be too much in one bath with her suspected salt sensitivity? And do you think I should use lower amounts then 2 tsp per gallon of salt? I would think that since it's a bath, all three shouldn't be a problem, with the recommend sodium chloride recommendation. It shouldnt be as stressful of having the display tank with salt. I would still just follow the articles recommendations for the baths.
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