Untreated columnaris for 4 mo's?

[bettarescue]

This is my first (besides introduction) forum post here, so please bare with me if I include or omit too much information.



My betta Orchid has had a small patch on her right side, under her dorsal fin (see above pictures, zoom in for closer look) ever since her brief stint in a planted, mature, cycled, Amano shrimp tank- wich didnt go well and she was removed within 24 hrs back to her original and still cycled tank. It looks like a hazy mucus over the scales (wich are visible and intact beneath the film- no flesh deterioration, redness, or swelling. There may be a very fine texture at most) wich I believed was possible slime coat loss. The first time I noticed this patch was back in 8/2016. Being familiar with Carl's columnaris vs saprolengia article I ordered some Kanaplex from AAP to use in conjunction with the Bifuran I already had on hand (in case it was true columnaris). I immediately put Catapa leaves in her tank for tannis and upped my pwcs (From 30% every 5 days w/gravel vac to 20% every other day with gravel vac 1x/wk) Then I watched and waited as the medicine was shipping... and that's when I became hesitant to medicate. The only symptom was this patch and possible mild Popeye, wich I honestly believe is her natural eye shape and setting, but was hyper aware of every little thing. Her eating nor behavior had ever changed, and I came to see that the patch hadn't changed an ioda either-not in shape, color, size or texture. So I kept watching.

Now here we are 1/2017- almost 5 months later and this patch has done nothing. It's still there but looks exactly the same as the day I 1st noticed it. 

My question is, could this be columnaris or is there something I am missing? I know some strains of columnaris are more virulent then others, however I thought any strain
would claim the fishs life in the course of 5 months-right? 


My parameters are:

+Lightly planted tank with various anubias varieties and 1 Fml Betta <1yr old 
+Ammonia: 0ppm
+Nitrite: 0ppm
+Nitrate: 5ppm
+Temp: 79*F (adjustable)
+PH: 7.8 (very consistent)
+KH: 6/107.4ppm (very consistent)
+GH: 21/375.9 (varies only slightly, I use wonder shells)
~Water additives: Seachem prime water conditioner w/every wc & 1ml Leaf zone 1x/wk.

any guidance would be appreciated as this is really starting to worry me!

[devonjohnsgard]

hmm... Well Columnaris is stress related. So, I would start trying to find the cause. It could be flex in temp (common in winter), too high of flow. Diet. Need a quality diet.

I would be interested to see the pop eye as that's a bacterial issue, not really stress.

Keeping immunity boosted with the long term constant minerals and good diet should help.

How big is the tank. Smaller tanks will flex more.

[bettarescue]

Thank you so much for your reply! To answer your questions:

She is in a 10 gal tank with wonder shells in constant supply for mineral cations. I also feed her the Paradigm/AAP carnivore crumbles, with Live frozen Daphnia as a treat and to pass bloating. Live frozen brine shrimp as a treat as well, with Hikari BioGold pellets to switch up her food on occasion to avoid food boredom.

I was curious if this could be possible: she caught it opportunistically when she was stressed out dealing with the move to the shrimp tank and back. Could her immune system actually be strong enough for her to have contracted columnaris all those months ago, and has held the illness at bay for the past 4-5 mo's


Edit: So would you say this is a case of columnaris? And that means I should start the Kanaplex and Bifuran baths correct?

[devonjohnsgard]

Jan 18, 2017 14:08:56 GMT -5 bettarescue said:

Thank you so much for your reply! To answer your questions:

She is in a 10 gal tank with wonder shells in constant supply for mineral cations. I also feed her the Paradigm/AAP carnivore crumbles, with Live frozen Daphnia as a treat and to pass bloating. Live frozen brine shrimp as a treat as well, with Hikari BioGold pellets to switch up her food on occasion to avoid food boredom.

I was curious if this could be possible: she caught it opportunistically when she was stressed out dealing with the move to the shrimp tank and back. Could her immune system actually be strong enough for her to have contracted columnaris all those months ago, and has held the illness at bay for the past 4-5 mo's


Edit: So would you say this is a case of columnaris? And that means I should start the Kanaplex and Bifuran baths correct?

Ya, I'm thinking baths would be best at this point. Does seem like stress triggered the outbreak and now the fish can't kick it and yes the immunity can't really be straighten from it. If something happens more, the fish could get worse.

[Carl]

Generally Columnaris is more aggressive than this.
Your parameters check out too.

While the looks are something one might see with Columnaris, it is not a clear case and the timeline, and parameters are also a "vote" against it being Columnaris IMO.
However, how this started is typical for Columnaris.

If the bath could be done without adding more stress, I would consider this for about 6-7 days.
While I am a big advocate for fish baths, it generally is because the benefits will out weight the added stress, but I am not so sure here.

You might even consider a Medicated Wonder Shell in tank, even though not a strong treatment for Columnaris, it still has mild effectiveness and may be just enough if this really is Columnaris (which I have many doubts and if so a very mild case)

Carl

[bettarescue]

Thank you devonjohnsgard , that's what I was hoping for a second opinion on. I know if Orchids health is compromised the odds are higher that she suddenly becomes worse or contracts something opportunistic (like velvet or ick) and as a result I have been "fish keeping on eggshells" as to not cause any stress. I have been just as afraid of medicating when it's unneeded, as of treating for the incorrect illness- wich is why I have been watching her like a hawk, but done nothing directly about the patch.

I am almost finished with my "Healthy Betta Habitat", wich is my ideal tank setup and operation to keep a FW fish in optimal health. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind going over my equipment, husbandry, and aquarium environment to pick out any triggers, stressors, or conditions that aren't in line with my goal of preventing undue illness and stress? If so I will start a new thread i the appropriate category to keep this thread tidy
 
Thank you also @carl -it's truly an honor! And I also appreciate you giving both sides of the coin- as far as what does and does not point to a columnaris diagnosis. I was feeling crazy waffling back and forth as to what it is, and what to do. I have medicated wonder shells on hand, so I would like to start in tank treatment using those for a week. Then if no change is noted then start the Kanaplex and bifuran + baths. Will the anubias barteri and anubias nanna survive the medicated wonder shells in tank?

One weird question popped into my mind... One of the thermometers I have suctions to the inside wall of the aquarium. Orchid loves glass surfing her reflection, just up and down this glass thermometer. When she's done, as she swims around/below, the rounded tip rubs on the exact spot where this opaque patch sits. 1) any chance she's scratching or itching this spot? 2) could the rubbing on this smooth, rounded, glass tip of the thermometer disrupt her slime coat enough to make her look like she does? She doesn't do it excessive but I see her do it at least once a day, so I thought it was worth mentioning!

[Carl]

Jan 19, 2017 5:52:06 GMT -5 bettarescue said:

Thank you also @carl -it's truly an honor! And I also appreciate you giving both sides of the coin- as far as what does and does not point to a columnaris diagnosis. I was feeling crazy waffling back and forth as to what it is, and what to do. I have medicated wonder shells on hand, so I would like to start in tank treatment using those for a week. Then if no change is noted then start the Kanaplex and bifuran + baths. Will the anubias barteri and anubias nanna survive the medicated wonder shells in tank?

The Anubias should survive the Medicated Wonder Shell use

One weird question popped into my mind... One of the thermometers I have suctions to the inside wall of the aquarium. Orchid loves glass surfing her reflection, just up and down this glass thermometer. When she's done, as she swims around/below, the rounded tip rubs on the exact spot where this opaque patch sits. 1) any chance she's scratching or itching this spot? 2) could the rubbing on this smooth, rounded, glass tip of the thermometer disrupt her slime coat enough to make her look like she does? She doesn't do it excessive but I see her do it at least once a day, so I thought it was worth mentioning!

This may be the cause!
I am very suspicious of this being Columnaris at all, so this makes a lot of sense, great detective work.

Please note, all of us, myself included, are only making educated guesses but for an actual microscopic slide positively identifying Columnaris

Carl

[bettarescue]

I appreciate all the help! What I have decided to do is to temporarily remove the glass thermometer from her tank, and buy the adhesive strip type that you affix to the outside- I know these tend to be less accurate however my betta is too nosy to try and hide the in tank type. For that extra support I'm going to put a medicated WS in tank also.

Either today or tomorrow my Spong filter kit (from AAP) will be here and I will be running it in addition to my adjustable HOB filter. This is so I can have stronger BB, and raise the oxygen content in the water while still keeping the flow down on the HOB for the bettas sake. My question is this: seeing how Columnaris is an aerobic bacteria, if this patch IS TRULY columnaris, would the additional oxygen in the water cause this symptom to progress?

[devonjohnsgard]

Fair question

I asked Carl too, he said he hasn't noticed that be the case. Of course O2 is needed and making the water more "clean" can only help. Not having enough would be more stressful. More would be another fish picking on him (I know that's not the case), food, flow, ammonia or nitrite...

[bettarescue]

Awesome quick reply devonjohnsgard I have wondered about that for some time now. Columnaris is a sticky one because correcting the origin of the problem is not as simple as other diseases, that are usually brought on by dirty water, low quality food, poor filtration etc.

The only stressor I can think of is flow, and it's been something I have also been wondering about...hence the sponge filter purchase. The HOB I have is adjustable, but is rated for 10 gallon (with the appropriate 90+ gph turnover rate when turned all the way up)-however I have to adjust it to half way down for Orchids comfort (prob the flow rated for a 5gal). Even when the filter IS all the way up I can look on the opposite end of the tank- and the surface is barely even moving. So not only is oxygen content not optimal, gas exchange at the waters surface is minimal, all on top of weak mechanical finteation (at least) all from the lowered flow/turbulence of the current filter! I really hope this addition of the sponge filter will correct these imbalances.

[Carl]

A few thoughts:

While Columnaris certainly needs oxygen, so do fish, so good dissolved oxygen content is more of a factor in blunting bacteria that can opportunistic in more anaerobic conditions.

Having good aeration & filtration more helps with lowering stressors such as fluctuating pH, ammonia, nitrites, etc.

Also this is why we recommend a Redox balance as while oxygen is obviously an oxidizer, it is a necessary oxidizer.

Carl

[bettarescue]

Thank you both for the clarification! It makes sense, I'm just working very hard to keep balance in my tank- and wanted to make sure if I have too much of a good thing it wouldn't be a bad thing

Orchids Update:
When my AAP package came I wasted no time getting it open and setting everything up. For my 10 gal I got the Hydro Sponge Filter 2 (kit w/Rio 80 air pump), I also got an additional sponge and diffusers.- I suppose I'll save the product gushing for the AAP product review forum but suffice to say that right out of the box the quality of this filter over others was obvious. Unfortunately I could not find an appropriate saw or instrument to cut down the lift tube by 1.5 inches- so I will cut that piece shorter, later in the a.m. and turning the sponge filter back on.

The patch is reacting to something,weather it's the medicated WS or removing the thermometer. However just a little bit ago I shone a flashlight on my betta...and now I can see her natural iridescentce through the cloudy patch, this is the first time I have seen any color on those scales (other then the matte, opaque, slimely patch)so there is some form of noticeable change.

[Carl]

Jan 21, 2017 7:10:51 GMT -5 bettarescue said:

Thank you both for the clarification! It makes sense, I'm just working very hard to keep balance in my tank- and wanted to make sure if I have too much of a good thing it wouldn't be a bad thing

Orchids Update:
When my AAP package came I wasted no time getting it open and setting everything up. For my 10 gal I got the Hydro Sponge Filter 2 (kit w/Rio 80 air pump), I also got an additional sponge and diffusers.- I suppose I'll save the product gushing for the AAP product review forum but suffice to say that right out of the box the quality of this filter over others was obvious. Unfortunately I could not find an appropriate saw or instrument to cut down the lift tube by 1.5 inches- so I will cut that piece shorter, later in the a.m. and turning the sponge filter back on.

The patch is reacting to something,weather it's the medicated WS or removing the thermometer. However just a little bit ago I shone a flashlight on my betta...and now I can see her natural iridescentce through the cloudy patch, this is the first time I have seen any color on those scales (other then the matte, opaque, slimely patch)so there is some form of noticeable change.

You could use a kitchen steak knife to cut the lift tube (just be aware that this will dull the knife)

Great that you are seeing changes, although this honestly seems a little too soon!

Carl

[bettarescue]

Thanks for the kitchen knife idea Carl, I over think things a lot.

Got the sponge filter finished and Im thrilled, I wish I would have tried one of these in my early fishkeeping days. Hindsights 20/20 lol I'm wondering if turning off my HOB would be a bad idea- after this filter is seeded that is?

I hope it's related, but my good sense says we're a few days out from any visible or noteable change... Though I'm not sure I have any clue what to look for. Its more likely my pen light just got a fresh pair of aaa's, or that I caught her scales at an irregular angle.

Wait and see, the hardest part is always the waiting.

[Carl]

Jan 21, 2017 19:00:02 GMT -5 bettarescue said:

Thanks for the kitchen knife idea Carl, I over think things a lot.

You're welcome

Got the sponge filter finished and Im thrilled, I wish I would have tried one of these in my early fishkeeping days. Hindsights 20/20 lol I'm wondering if turning off my HOB would be a bad idea- after this filter is seeded that is?

I recommend as much filter redundancy as possible, so I would leave both

I hope it's related, but my good sense says we're a few days out from any visible or noteable change... Though I'm not sure I have any clue what to look for. Its more likely my pen light just got a fresh pair of aaa's, or that I caught her scales at an irregular angle.

Wait and see, the hardest part is always the waiting.

you seem to know your way around fish quite well, and know what is normal and what is not with your pet, so If changes are in order, I think you will notice the subtle changes

If this is just from abrasions, scarring may result and not real changes will be noticed

Carl

[bettarescue]

Thought I would update on Orchids condition.

The patch has changed slightly. The small patch of green pearlescent I thought I saw early on-was indeed what I was seeing. The consistency of the patch has changed some as well. Now it seems almost like the patch is flaky but wet, like human skin that's about to shed, soft out of the shower. However, something else is.... off. Her eyes seem a bit more bulgey and her mouth is narrowly agape (more then usual, reminds me of sockeye salmon) She has also started spitting out some (not all, but a lot) of her food. I thought this was because I had given her treats a little more frequently (since the medicated wondershell went in tank and I have been worried about her health). The spitting up started yesterday morning, as I notice the regurgitation I notice her mouth simultaneously. No damage I can see, no fungus I can see... but columnaris is swimming around in my mind yet again, as "mouth fungus" is usually actually columnaris but I don't see any signs of that. I think the mouth might be mechanical (she attacks everything, She thinks she's an Orca) ) but the food spitting is not like her. Orchid is notoriusly unscrupulous about her food, it's my other girl Iris that's picky. It has me worried more then all else.

I'm freaking out. I'm a maticulous fish keeper and I have nothing here, Nothing is adding up. OMG the water lettuce. I didn't QT the plant. Oh no... I forgot about the water lettuce from my fav lfs, I even wrote it down in my maintenance notebook- don't know how I forgot to mention it. It went in Orchids tank but not Iris's!

Back on 1/13 I put it in Orchids tank, guess I was so worried about it dying on the cold, long drive home that I rushed to put it in before considering possible contamination. All my fish are in single occupant tanks (save shrimp and snails in 1) and I still QT every living thing that goes in any tank for extra caution- plants are no exception. Could this have attributed to... something? I'm grasping at straws here.

I have replaced the 1st MWS that has dissolved with another, and moved the water lettuce over to the invert tank (it was too messy for my taste in her tank anyhow). I feel it's time to do something, but with little to diagnose by- I can't settle on what? Start with Epsom salt baths? Methylene blue baths? Kanamycin and Furanol baths?

[bettarescue]

One more thing...

This morning she is taking her food better but I found something very distressing. Butted up next to her right eye looks to be a thin string. First thought was HITH or Hex but isn't that primarily a cichlid thing, can bettas get hexamita? After watching for close to an hour I think it may be a thin bit of scratched flesh hanging, I can't see it moving independently of the fish. If that makes sense, but I can't be sure.

At this point I'm at a loss. I'm against medicating Willy Nilly but I'm scared if I don't do something soon, this may not turn out well for her. Any med is pretty accessible, and AAP is so close I'm only 2 days out for delivery, but this is what I have on hand this moment:

Kanaplex
Bifuran +
Maracyn (erythromycin)
Coppersafe
Methelyne blue (pure)
Medicated WS
Epsom salt
AQ salt
Catapa leaves (large)

Ps: would love your input as well cindil

Edit & update: I have "mangefying eyes" as my dr says (I am extremely near sighted) and took out my contacts and got out the flashlight again. What I saw was this thin white string hanging out her second nostril hole nearest her eye! It is not symmetrical, and is uneven at the end. It is defiantly not a parasite. I can't find anything on AAP or aquarium and pond answers that sound close but HITH. This is very strange.

[Carl]

Sorry you are yet again going through more stress with your Betta Orchid.

Can you get a close up picture of this string?

This does not describe HITH from what I have seen, including how it came on.

What all is different?

You mentioned a MWS, how many & what size MWS in your 10 gallon aquarium/tank?

You might try a direct swab of Methylene Blue

Another suggested treatment (really a conditioner) to have on hand is AAP/SeaChem StressGuard (this cannot be used with any copper based remedy or Medicated Wonder Shells)
Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I leaning to what Carls's suggesting. Sounds like a medicated wonder shell would be good as it's wide spread and less harsh. Then go from there. Some fish just have poor immunities, so once they get sick, they keep getting sick

[bettarescue]

I am very sorry my posts have been so lengthy, I am trying to share any little thing that could clue us in on the culprit.

Sorry for not answering Carl, but she is in a 10g and I used one full SM medicated wonder shell at a time, with only small 1 gal water changes as per the instructions! I usually only put in 3/4 a SM reg WS but figured a little more would cause no harm with the medicated version. She has had the medicated version now 2 weeks in tank.

I actually was conversing with cindil about Orchids salt sensitivity a while ago and wonder if it holds a clue? I put a tbsp salt (AQ) In her 5 gal completely dissolved and it really messed with her. She was frozen in a full flair as if she was stretching every part of her as much as she could. She sat just floating in the water, her pectoral fins weren't even moving. If I hadn't seen her gills moving I would have been sure she was dead! I did 3 back to back to back water changes and a few hours later she was ok. But she sat in the salted water for about 6 hours until I found her as described. If she has this sensitivity to just salt, is there any reason the med WS could be causing stress and hence letting something take hold (still grasping at straws )

The patch: slowly changing but unsure of why. Not a big deal.

Eating: she is struggling with the crumbles, or that's how it appears to me.. She took spirulina brine shrimp with little incident, took biogold pellets in one chew-also no spitting. I am in love with the Carnovire crumbles and she has always preferred it as well, I can't fathom why she struggles to eat it now? I'm sure it's not a picky eater thing, she has happily eaten it for 6 months now! Even the smallest of pieces she eats and then starts stretching her lips and face out, as if she's trying to dislodge something. Then she puffs her mouth out and I see crumbs flushing out her gills and mouth. She comes back for what gets out her mouth, like she wants to eat the food but can't get/keep it down. I have a picky eater (Iris) and when she spits the pellets out nothing comes out her gills like when Orchid does this, I hope this is something someone else has seen before?

Facial string: I wish I would have gotten that picture last night! When I woke I checked on orchid imediatly and noticed it had mostly broken off, only a very short piece coming from the nostril hole but looking at her now I can't even see the tiny piece that remained (with my plain sight).

I have a weird question about this: do betta sinus holes have any connection to their gills or mouth (like humans?) The string looked organic, plant or maybe even food? With Orchids flushing of the food out her gills and mouth is there any way something could get caught in the cavity or possibly lodged in from the outside?!?!? I probably sound crazy.

Eyes: still looking bulgey and has some very thin facial membranes, I am leaning towards needing Epsom salt baths for this.

New symptom: fin clamping. I have been noticing it more frequently but hoped it was her trying to find a place without flow to sleep, now it's looking like an issue. No signs of velvet, or ich.

She is still my affectionate playful girl, who seems much less bothered by these symptoms then I am- feces is healthy, she's a little pudge but no bloating, breathing well and, well she's getting some food down. My gut serves me and it's telling me I am trying to connect the dots with many unrelated symptoms. It's likely a few different things as opposed to one problem with one cure. I just wish i could figure out just one of them *sigh*