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Post by kagome on Nov 8, 2008 21:44:32 GMT -5
OK, I just do not get this. A few weeks ago my clown loach in my 10g tank started to look ill. I'm not sure if he had Ich or Velvet because it almost looked like both, but it was definitely some sort of Protozoan infection. He had even scratched some of his skin away. So I freaked out and read all of Carl's articles about fish disease and decided to get some Quick Cure to treat the tank (Paragaurd not readily available). I treated the tank at half dose on account of the loach being sensitive. I took out the carbon and did everything by the book for a three day treatment. I did a 50% water change and did 2 more days of treatment. The loach looked much better, his skin even grew back very quickly and I figured all was OK. So I did a 25% water change and put the carbon back in the filter and figured all was OK. I noticed two days ago that my Gourami was acting weird, dashing around the tank and looking a bit stressed out. Today his fins look he has fin rot and one little spot looks like it might be ich. So I started another round of Quick Cure tonight. I've never had any kind of infection in one of my tanks before and I'm frustrated. Did I not treat the tank long enough? Should I take out the gravel and rinse/clean it? For the record I would like to point out that my tank parameters are excellent. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, etc. I use wonder shells. I do a 25% water change with a gravel vacuum every week. I very carefully make new water the same temperature as the tank water. I'm very careful not to overfeed and I feed quality food. Nobody is beating anybody up in the tank. So I don't really think that anybody is overly stressed. Thanks in advance for any and all help, I'm kinda upset about this whole thing. *whine*  |
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 8, 2008 21:53:07 GMT -5
I'm not clear on something. Are these fish you just got or have you had them a while? If you just got them, if they came friom a bad dealer they may have been carrying somthing dormently.
Also, what size is your tank?
Also, I know that clown loaches are prone to ich. Eveen sometimes if you take good care of your fish these things can happen so don't be alarmed.
Last, have you tried medicated baths? I 5 minute bath in methyline blue will probably help. I've given baths with MB to my fish and they didn't even notice it.
I'm sure that Bill, Jon V, etc. wil be able to some advice that is more in depth. I've never kept clown loaches or gourami's becuase I've never kept them though I know a little. I've never used Quick Cure but I hear that it is an excellent product.
I wish the best of luck on this. Hope your fish get better soon.
Renee
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Post by jonv on Nov 8, 2008 23:18:01 GMT -5
Kagome,
I have similar issues going on in my 180 with assorted Africans and some of the community fish too. I can't really explain it and with Carl's advice from my pics and video's we figured this to be Columnaris and we treated pretty heavily for this. After treatment I still see quite a bit of frayed fins in there and some minor body spots. It was determined, and I am lead to believe this commonly happens after running a med in a tank, that your conditions shift towards an anerobic thriving ground. I'd have to assume that the ich or protozoan affliction has been dealt with. If you see any recurrence of this, even though you have a Loach, I'd reccomend, unless someone more experienced knows differently, use Copper Sulfate. Copper is tough on scale less fish and inverts and plants, BUT I'll tell you, I've used this in the past and found it really only messed up the plants more then my cats and other scaleless fish. Copper is a little tougher to get out of the water since your Carbon won't take it out, so it only pretty much comes out with water changes, and I think that's managable for you.
As to the frayed fins, that alone I'd not get too worried about, but the darting around is the sign there saying the Gourami isn't too happy. I'd say that isolation treatments are a good choice, and that the use of Meth Blue, may not be the exact treatment here without knowing what the cause is, however, I don't think using Meth Blue is going to hurt either. As I understand MB uses on a fish, it pretty much assists in the O2 transfer in the bloodstream. It might be able to be overdosed, and Carl or Bill would know better. I still would say, that isn't going to hurt, however my treatment option would be the use of salt and Melafix.
I know MF may not be too popular in some views, but I will share this with you. I had a South American Arowana lose it's tail completely one time, last year, and I just kept him in the 20 for about 10 days, treating with this, and he completely regenerated that tail in about 2 weeks time. When it comes to tail and fin rot, this is one thing I will stand up for MF on.
Again though, I am not nearly as versed in treatments as Carl, Bill, and 8 are. This is what I'd do if it were my fish. Try 15-20 minute MB and Salt baths, and 7-10 day isolation tank, with Melafix treatment. On the treatment of the tank, like I said before I ran meds in my tank to find this happen post meds, so I don't think this is uncommon. Cleaning the gravel out I don't think is going to hurt and you might want to go that route. If this is anything related to anerobic conditions, this will only help you and probably you'll want to clean out your mechanical media in your filter too.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 8, 2008 23:35:26 GMT -5
well.....in my humble opinion....you need to do meds for longer. the strength is cut in half, which was a great decision....but if you cut the treatment in half the length of medicating has to double. good news tho....if the meds for ich removed the spots on the loach......it is almost certainly not oodinium......
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Post by Carl on Nov 9, 2008 0:01:55 GMT -5
well.....in my humble opinion....you need to do meds for longer. the strength is cut in half, which was a great decision....but if you cut the treatment in half the length of medicating has to double. good news tho....if the meds for ich removed the spots on the loach......it is almost certainly not oodinium...... I know I was going to spend little time, but I wanted to second what Bill just stated and then add this "snip" from my Aquarium Ich article (it is new, so it may have been not in the last update) I will be spending more time updating articles such as this to be more clear in the next couple weeks. Carl |
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Post by kagome on Nov 9, 2008 0:43:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies folks!
goldenpuon--These are fish that I have had for quite a while in my 10g tank that has been up and running for over a year.
Carl & Bill--OK, so basically you guys think I should keep on with the Quick Cure but use it for like two weeks? Should I do a water change everyday before I retreat? And if so, what percent of the water should I change out before adding more medicine? I only did three days because that what was on the instructions for the Quick Cure.
Also, during the last round of battling this stuff I put a medicated wonder shell in the tank. It turned the water dark blue. When I was using the Quick Cure it didn't turn blue at all. Once the water turned dark blue the loach was acting as if he was under SEVERE stress, (darting, flashing, even ramming himself into the decor and glass) to the point that I immediately removed the shell and did a 50% water change and was still very concerned that he would die at the time (he didn't, he's fine now and still in the tank). Is the medicated wonder shell too big to put in such a small tank?
Thanks again guys, I can't tell you how worried and frustrated I've been about this today, my Gourami really doesn't seem to feel well. I've had him a really long time and would hate to lose him. A whole bunch of other things have gone wrong lately, with both fish and not fish stuff and so this has been just one more straw on the back of a very overloaded camel. I hope everyone out there in fishy forum land is well and having a good day. You guys are all so nice, I'm so glad I joined this forum.
Warmest regards,
kagome
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 9, 2008 10:48:02 GMT -5
I would go with what the others said. While I'm not sure if you should do a water change before you retreat, you should do water changes between doses unless the bottle says so. I ahve overtreated fish by mistake by adding the medication veryday without a water change thinking I didn't need to because the bottle didn't say anything about water changes.
I wouldn't think that a wonder shell would turn the tank blue. Are you sure that was it? It sounds more like the medication turned the water blue gradually to me and it may have been an overdose of meds but then again I'm not totally sure since I wasn't there. I've had sick fish many times so i know what it feels like and it definitely sucks and can be very sad. Hang in there and have a little faith that they will be ok.
Renee
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Post by bikeguy33 on Nov 9, 2008 11:37:28 GMT -5
with this treatment i would do small water changes every other day.large water changes are stressful.the big thing is is just because the symptoms appear to be gone, you still treat for the full time.
also...renee is right. the wonder shell shouldn`t turn the water blue. could a few drops of MB got put into the tank???
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 9, 2008 12:19:50 GMT -5
Good points Bill, though I'm not sure if Kagome has MB. Plus that is not supposed to be put in tanks in the first place because it kills beneficial bacteria. (MB is used for medicated baths in case youd didn't know) I doubt that happened but maybe Kagome could fill us in. With the symtoms she mentioned, it sounds more like med overdose than anything.
I agree with Bill on the other points. Plus, I would be careful on not overdosing (if that is the case). I know you mentioned that you were using 1/2 dose so I'm not entirely sure what caused this. Have you been doing water changes between doses of the Quick Cure?
Hope that helps!
Renee
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Post by kagome on Nov 9, 2008 13:32:19 GMT -5
It was a Medicated Wondershell that turned the water blue. I had just done a 50% water change after having done a three day cycle of Quick Cure. I saw the blue coming off of the Medicated Wondershell in streams and within half an hour the water was blue, really blue, like I had dyed the water with a bunch of food coloring.
By the way, I'm not using Methylene Blue, what's in the Quick Cure is Zinc free Malachite Green and Formalin.
The directions say to treat for three days, then do a 25% water change. Where I'm going to deviate from the directions is that the bottle says that if the fish look better after three days that you don't have to treat anymore, but I think this latest crop of Protozoans shows that to be untrue. I'm going to treat the tank everyday for 14 days. I'll do a water change every three days like the bottle says. Because of the clown loach I'm only treating at half strength, five drops instead of ten, so I think I'll be OK on overdosing. Then when the 14 days are up I'll do a 50% water change and put the carbon and bio cartridge back in.
As an update, my Gourami looks very poorly today. His name is Spot and it makes me very sad to see his beautiful fins look so shabby and beat up. But, he's not flashing and darting around the tank, so I think he at least feels better even if he doesn't look better. I really hope I don't lose him, I'm very attached to him.
Thanks for the help,
kagome
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Post by Carl on Nov 9, 2008 15:56:02 GMT -5
Yes the Medicated Wonder shells (not the regular) will turn your water blue, but this is not at all harmful to the fish, unlike an over dose of Malachite Green would be. This is typical for the first day, but it does quickly dissipate. Although the "blue" in Medicated WS is not harmful to fish, over use of Medicated WS NOT regular Wonders Shells (which I recommend to be used continuously) can be harmful to nitrifying bacteria. Although the Med WS is not as strong as Quick Cure as to treating Ich, it is safer as per the fish and any reaction would likely just be from the fish swimming through the stream of blue. This is where most medications are wrong in their directions, I recommend treating for another week past the last white spots. Sorry to read this, I would strongly recommend 30 minute salt and Methylene Blue baths for your Gourami as you may be dealing with a secondary infection. See this article for more about baths: Aquarium Disease Prevention; Section 9, BathsCarl |
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Post by kagome on Nov 9, 2008 18:30:52 GMT -5
Carl,
I do have another medicated wonder shell, but I'm not sure how I should use it. What are your recommendations?
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 9, 2008 20:03:14 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you just drop it right into your tank. I couldn't find an article particularly on them but there is some info on them on their sales page. Here's the link. Anything beyond this I do not know. Sorry I can't help more. americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html |
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Post by Carl on Nov 9, 2008 20:36:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Renee, I checked the site to see if the question was answered on the web site page, and it was too vague IMO so I edited the page. ;D
Anyway I do not recommend going past three weeks in Medicated WS usage and if you gave a Medicated Wonder Shell currently in the tank, waiting until the initial one s 2/3 dissolved before adding another Medicated WS.
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 10, 2008 6:24:07 GMT -5
No problem. I'm always open to helping people. Did that answer your question Kagome?
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Post by kagome on Nov 10, 2008 13:18:37 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Yes, that answered my questions for the most part. I put a medicated wondershell in the tank last night. The water is quite blue, but my Gourami seems MUCH better this morning. He doesn't seem so droopy and he was begging to be fed and he ate very well. He is very much acting like his usual self.
I'm sorry I keep asking so many questions, but I just want to make sure I don't mess up so my fish will get better. While the medicated wondershell is in the tank how often should I do water changes? I usually do them once a week, but I should I do it more often right now?
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 10, 2008 17:03:53 GMT -5
Well if you are treating still with the Quick Cure, I would do a water change before you add each new dose. Otherwise, not enough of the old medication is taken out and even if you put in the right amount of medication, there is still some in the water so in a way you end up overmedicating your fish. That may be why your gourami was acting so strangely, if you didn't do a 25% water change after each doe of Quick Cure you added. I have killed many fish from not doing water changes when I add new doses. Unless the bottle says I don't need to doi a water change if multiple doses are needed, I always do 25% just to be sure. Hope that helps!
Renee
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