Two White Spots

[goldenpuon]

I just noticed 2 white spots on my goldfish Nemo's tail in my 40 gallon. I am hoping it is not ich. The spots look too large to be ick and there are not enough spots. They look like they are just coloration now but I am hoping it stays that way and the spots disappear. However, I have seen ich start this way so I am hoping Nemo and the rest will be ok. I am not medicating yet since I tend to way overreact. I put towels over the tank to make it darker and destress the fish if that is the cause. I will keep a close eye on them.

[goldenpuon]

Now I see 3 white spots but the third one is on one of Nemo's pelvic or pectoral fins(forgot what it's called). It's the pair of fins uner the fish's belly. I could have easily missed it the first time I looked the Nemo over. Also, Nemo is showing no other sigsn of ich. No itching or scratching, very active, not hiding. Nemo is also very interested in food. Also, when I looked at the other fish, they had no spots. I just added two new goldfish to the 40 yesterday, (Wickren and Kona) plus I did a 20% water change and added the 40 gallon Whisper filter which makes a little too much current. It may be just a mark, I am going to wait and see. If there are no more spots in 2 more days, then it is defintiely not ich or the fish fought it off since ich spreads fast typically.

[Carl]

I would be careful, as Ich can spread fast and this fits the description of Ich

What is your tank temperature, has it varied much?

You could try increasing your salt or using the heat method instead of regular medications, although I do not care much for the heat method with goldfish.

I still find ParaGuard to be an excellent and VERY safe medication.

The Medicated Wonder Shells are quite safe as well and address electolytes as well.

There are also new Organic Treatments, the best of the bunch based on preliminary results is Kordon Herbal Ich Attack

I would reference this article as well:
Aquarium Ich; Treatment, Prevention

Carl

[goldenpuon]

The temperature is my guess at 67 F. I don't have a thermometer on the 40. The temperature has changed for the fish in the respect that they were in my warmer bedroom before when I moved them a few weeks ago. I agree on waiting on meds as this has been my downfall. (For example, my poor guppy from earlier this week). I will increase salt but not by much. Only enough for 15 gallons since if nothing is wrong, I would rather not alter things much.

This reminds me, I had two fish in the past that got white spots but nothing happened. For example, a few years back I had a feeder named Whispering Thistle that got a tail full of white spots. but then I didn't treat and the next day they were gone. It turns out they were bubbles upon close inspection. I also had a goldfish named Silvite Shade. She got white spots that disappeared in 2 hours. With all the bubbles in the tank, (via sponge filter, Whisper filter, it could be the case.)

Also, the spots aren't raised like ich where it looks like something is attached to the fish. That's why I said it looks like it's coloration.

Sorry if I sound like I'm disregarding your help. (I am not) I made this discussuion just in case it was something. was wrong. After talking to Bill the other night by phone, I realized that I needed to bring up things a bit more, even in the case that everthing turns out ok and I feel like I know what I am doing. What I'm getting at is I want to get more input from others before I do things because of my tendecy to overreact.

Thanks very much for your post Carl. It was very helpful. I will add the salt.

[Carl]

You're not disregarding my help, as I agree as to making sure before you leap.

Water conditions are very important for Ich and other disease prevention.

Temperatures swings can allow an Ich infestation (or other problems to get started, even for goldfish), although Ich MUST be present for this to happen as Ich does not drift in from the air.

You may not have Ich either as you stated, this may be a nodule of some sort possibly a fungus.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I have had this before and it has gone away in as little as 3 hours (with Silvite Shade). Another time, I got really stressed out about a fish named Whispering Thistle getting mnay white spots on his/her tail. Then I rechecked the fish and saw oen spot "pop". It was pretty silly. That time they were air bubblers somehow collecting on my fish. None of he fish I have now have ever had ich and I've had them varying from 1 1/2 to 3 years. Thanks again for the help Carl. I'll be checking on the fish often.

[goldenpuon]

Well, I looked over Nemo thoroughly today and the 3 white spots are still there but there are no more. All the fish still look healthy. Everything seems the same as yesterday.

[goldenpuon]

I found a 4th white spot! It is smaller tan the others, also on Nemo's tail fin. The other fish are still "spotless" and Nemo is still showing no other signs of ich. What should I do? It has been 2 days since the first 3 dots appeared.

[Carl]

Nov 2, 2008 10:44:21 GMT -5 goldenpuon said:

I found a 4th white spot! It is smaller tan the others, also on Nemo's tail fin. The other fish are still "spotless" and Nemo is still showing no other signs of ich. What should I do? It has been 2 days since the first 3 dots appeared.

Are you sure this is not Ich?

You can perform medicated baths with MB and salt, but this will do little to check the Ich trophozoites in your tank if this is indeed Ich, but iwould be helpful for other problems such as Saprolegnia/fungus.

You have several methods at your disposal that all work in some form or the other and since this appears to be a slow progressing problem, you probably could try some of the methods that are often not as strong, but less invasive as per aquatic chemistry.

Here are a few methods to consider:
*Salt
*Organic (Herbal Ich Attack is the best of these)
*Heat
*Medicated Wonder Shells
*Regular medication of which I have found ParaGuard to be the best of late.

This list is in order of weakest to strongest, but is also quite subjective based on MANY things such as fish resistance, water parameters such as pH, GH, etc., and more

Again I refer to this article for more explaination:
Aquarium Ich: Ichthyophthirius multifilis and Cryptocaryon irritans treatment, identification, and life cycle

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Well, I have added salt but I have no heater powerful enough to heat the whole tank. I don't seem to have any wonder shells or organic meds. All I have for ich that I know is successful is Ich Clear. Maybe I can buy Paraguard or Herbal Ich Attack from you. I will check it out now. If it's this slow progressing, by the time it is shipped the spots with probably either be gone or not have spread that much.

But I have a question, isn't it ususual for ich to progress this slowly? I've had ich appear on fish and kill them in only 4 days and they stratched/acted sick before really any spots appeared. Also, could it be velvet? The spots don't look like white salt grains on the fish, they still look like a white spots that are coloration.

This also brinsg back the memory almost 3 years ago when I bought Nemo. I was at Mejiers and the fish in the tank weren't all athat healthy. I desperately wanted a white fish but the only white one was putting it's dorself in down. The next pic was Nemo who was at the time pretty inactive but showed no other problems. Then when I brought it home, I saw Nemo itch once over the course of a week but no ich ever developed. Still, Nemo seemed very stressed and weak and I thought he/she wouldn't make it. Then Nemos strated clamping its fins classic of the 12 other feeders that ahd died beofre it with no other symtoms and that no medication ever fixed. Then the powere went out and it was winter. I put a blanket over all my tank's including neo's since the temperature dropped to 55 F in the house. Then I noticed Nemo had stopped holding its fins to its body. I took teh balnket off and the fish resumed. Then I put it back on and Nemos stopped. I had the blanket on Nemo for a week and afterwards, Nemo was fine. After a week or 2 more in quartine, I added him/her to one of my 10 gallons which had Puon and Oranda in it at the time. Nemo was very antisocial and was very scared of me and wouldn't hang around the others. Again, I thought Nmeo might die but that never happened. That is how I got Nemo who si still antisocial to this day but not as much. lol

[goldenpuon]

I just read your article on ich. But I am wondering, you said you had some mixed results with herbal remedies. I cannot afford for my fish to have ich and the treatment not be successful. Is it most likely to work with my case?

Also, I have to get permission to order from my mom before I order. When you ship it, can you make it go through first-class mail? I'm not trying to rush you, I just want to get the fish treated (if it is ich as fast as possible).
Also, do these treatment treat velvet?

Because again looking at the pcitures of the fish you posted with ich, the spots look a little too big. Thanks.

[goldenpuon]

I worked the Herbal Ich treatment plus the Paraguard and airline tubing.

Nemo seems pretty stressed out right now. I'm not sure if it is just from me staring at it to see the spots obsessievly or if it's actually from ich. Still only 4 spots. I have very very good aeration in my 40 so that should help since I read ich kills by affecting the gills. I'm going to see if I can add a plant or two more to the tank to make the fish feel more secure if they are stressed.

I still have the 2 questions from my last post so feel free to answer them. Thanks!

[Carl]

I have seen Ich progress at different rates depending on tank conditions and temperature.
Genenerally warmer temperatures will speed up the progression of Ich until you hit the "magic number" of 86-88 F.

Also healthy osmoregulation among fish will increase resistance.
I have seen this in my trials when I purposefully introduced fish with Ich in otherwise very healthy tanks and observed considerable resistance to an infestation outbreak until other stressers were added.

Your description best matches Ich, definitely not Velvet;
See this article:
Aquarium Answers; FRESHWATER VELVET - Piscinoodinium pillulare

As to spot size, do not confuse the "spots" of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon) in pictures with FW Ich; Marine Ich is smaller.

As to covering a tank, this may help with stress, but Ich itself is not light dependent and allowing your tank to cool down may slow down the ich considerably, but this will not kill it and the shock can be hard on the fish if too rapid (even for coldwater fish such as goldfish) and weaken them further.

I noted your order and it will be sent out Priority Mail which is usually 2-3 days except at Christmas where it can take longer than ground (and inlocations within 1000 miles ground is often quicker regarless of time of year)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl! My seems to be having issues verifying that this is ich. Nemo destressed right away after I fed the fish. Now he/she is not acting sick at all. Maybe Nemo was just trying to avoid my stare at its fins which my fish take as a sign that I want to net them and swim away. (I don't know why).

Second, Nemo's original 3 spots are in the same place as 2 days ago! I thought ich had a lifecycle of 24 hours.

This is very strange. Of course, having gotten ich on almost very fish when I started, I have seen fish where they get spots that look like coloration. Then they came down with ich 3 weeks later! This happened twice.

For once, I am not panicked about this. I am not sure why considering I have never successfully treated ich before. The last time I had ich was 3 years ago and back then I overmedicated after getting faulty advice from pet stores or every time I called, they always said my fish were sick or the fish because the treatment did not work + excessive water changes.

By the way, thanks for your message. I will call you if I need to.

Thanks for your time.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Bad news... I found more white spots on Nemo. One or two small ones on its tail fin and one more on it's paired fins. I added a lot of salt to hopefully keep it under control under the medications come. I do have Nox Ich but that has never worked for me. It has always killed my fish, even at 2/5 dose even though it did killthe ich. I hope it comes in time to help Nemo who is still acting healthy.

[goldenpuon]

Sorry for the triple post. I just fed my fish and I saw the others kind of picking on him. The other fish were not super aggressive but they were nipping at Nemo like they wanted food from him (he had a piece of Hikari goldfish food in his mouth). The 4 bigger one were also picking on Hansel (the smallest fish in the tank) who in turn seemed to be nipping at Nemo the most. Now I see why Nemo has not been schooling much with the other 5 goldfish the past few days.

I am going to stop looking at Nemo for white spots everyday unless things get worse since I have now verified that it is ich. Plus too much staring (that I tend to do too much) stresses Nemo like it does when I stare at any of my fish. I will probably be checking daily though once treatment starts.

[Carl]

Nov 3, 2008 5:43:39 GMT -5 goldenpuon said:

Bad news... I found more white spots on Nemo. One or two small ones on its tail fin and one more on it's paired fins. I added a lot of salt to hopefully keep it under control under the medications come. I do have Nox Ich but that has never worked for me. It has always killed my fish, even at 2/5 dose even though it did killthe ich. I hope it comes in time to help Nemo who is still acting healthy.

Have you been increasing salt? If so, this MUST be done slowly for acclimation. Also if you increase the salt past 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons, I would recommend "cutting" this via a water change before adding medications.

Salt/MB baths can be helpful in short term for easing the stress of the trophonts on the fish.

Nox Ich which is a very old Ich formulation is quite harsh (it is high in Zinc), but is can and does work. I have found Nox Ich is very important to be buffered by adequate calcium, higher pH and often by Triple Sulfa (the use of Triple Sulfa is something a researcher at Aquatronics once told me back in the late 70s)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

As I said via phone, I will be giving nemo MB baths. I am also seeing what i acn do about isolating in the same tank if I can find anything suitable for that.