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Post by cashay on Oct 21, 2008 7:15:00 GMT -5
I don't know what I'm doing wrong with my water or what I need to do .. Nitrate -20 Nitrite -0 GH- 300 KH -0 PH -6.0 I do a 25-35% water change every other day, I added a capful of Marine Buffer and a wondershell, BUT my water paramaters are just not right What is going on? The fish seem ok but how long will that last? Some one help!! please
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Post by jonv on Oct 21, 2008 10:48:09 GMT -5
Cash,
Having 0 KH makes me really scratch my head, especially given the stuff you are using. I don't use the Marine Buffer myself, but I do use the Rift Lake Salts. Since I started using that, I stopped really checking on that since the colors in my Africans really improved I just figure everything is fine. Maybe you need to add a second shell? Not sure. Tank size here? Nitrates don't seem to be much of a problem at all and the PH overall is pretty low.
How well are you vacuuming? Maybe not enough debris and waste is getting taken out? The only thing that makes sense to me, is something in the water or tank is immediately using up your Calcium. That's got to be it because if you are using those additives, I can't explain in any other way why you are reading 0 KH unless your tester is bad? Organic matter continues to break down past ammonia, eventually into carbonic and nitric acids and that will pretty effectively wipe out your buffer, so I'm going along the angle, there has to be something not being taken out.
Driftwood tannins probably would impact this as well, but driftwood after the first few months, for the most part, release all the tannins they have. I'm not thinking this could be driftwood if you have any wood at all. Finally, maybe taking a look at the tap water itself might reveal something.
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Post by murdock6701 on Oct 21, 2008 11:20:53 GMT -5
sorry dear, I'm at work and don't have the time or the liberty - I would check your test kit 1st - wondershell is a great start but i thimk I readsomewhere on another post that they can throw off readings sometimes - attached is a file from carl's writings - sorry I can't be much more of a help right now - I emailed carl and told him of your situation.....
"GH (& MAGNESIUM):
General hardness (GH or dGH) refers to the dissolved concentration primarily of calcium, magnesium and other mineral ions. Both Calcium and magnesium are important for proper internal osmotic processes in fish (and invertebrates). Other ions can contribute to water hardness but are usually insignificant and difficult to measure. When fish are said to prefer “soft” or “hard” water, it is GH, not the kH that is being referred to. GH will not directly affect pH although "hard" water is generally alkaline due to some interaction of GH and kH (it should also be noted that GH DOES effect pH when photosynthesis is thrown into the equation, please see this article: Planted Freshwater Aquariums). A high GH in freshwater can cause respiration problems in fish (over 500 ppm in my tests with community fish), for a general freshwater aquarium a GH between 100 to 200 ppm is best (lower for Discus, higher for mollies/ African Cichlids). Products such as Wonder Shells or similar mineral blocks are excellent for GH maintenance, also the use of aragonite in filters can also be employed for GH maintenance although my experience has shown the method of using aragonite to be less responsive to rapid changes in mineral needs in FW (especially planted aquariums) than the use of Mineral Blocks. It should also be noted that your GH may be artificially high from the use of mineral blocks such as Wonder Shells, however much of this is Calcium of which most all fish (fresh and saltwater as well as invertebrates) can tolerate in high levels.
Epsom salts contain magnesium sulfate, are best used for therapeutic reasons such as to aid in flushing the system as it aids in and speeds osmotic function , help to move fluids out of the body. Sulfates, one of the major components of Epsom Salt, have been shown effective in improving nutrient absorption and toxin elimination. Magnesium, the other major component of Epsom Salt, plays a role in the activity of more than 325 enzymes. That said you would only want to add about 1/4- 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gallons (18 liters). Although useful for therapeutic reasons, magnesium and sulfates in particular are best introduced as part of a greater trace element balance in an aquarium. I ONLY recommend Epsom Salts for therapeutic aquarium treatment. Also note that Epsom salts (as well as sodium chloride; regular table salt) do NOT evaporate or decompose like antibiotics, so only add more after water changes
Magnesium is important for proper osmotic functions in fish and invertebrates. Magnesium is better added in the proper balance with calcium (which both are essential to each other for proper utilization), in such products as Wonder Shells or aragonite sand in a small bag in the filter (although the later is not as reliable). Magnesium should be part of your overall mineral balance in your aquarium and kept at a level of 1200 to 1400 ppm in marine aquariums (lower for freshwater)"
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Post by murdock6701 on Oct 21, 2008 11:24:48 GMT -5
sorry.....thought your Gh was off
"MORE ABOUT KH:
Another consideration of KH is that you can generally safely add the buffers (both freshwater and saltwater) that effect KH without sudden changes in chemistry (unless your freshwater KH is under 50 ppm already), unlike a direct ph or GH change. Maintaining these KH buffers keeps your tanks pH form drastic swings which can be deadly.
Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate HCO3-), is often used for KH, Sodium Bi-Carbonate will buffer at 8.0 to 8.2. Just a little Sodium Carbonate will absorb free H+ ions, and this causes alkalinity (which is the lack of H+ ions). To stop the Sodium Carbonate ions from consuming too much H+ and to keep a pH of 7.0 we need to restrict the amount of Baking Soda used, as it is always looking for H+ ions to consume. This is why I prefer using products that not only contain sodium carbonates (or sodium bi carbonates), but the proper ratios of other minor elements such as Calcium and Magnesium. Sea Chem Buffer (Marine OR Freshwater) and to a lesser degree, aragonite and Mineral Blocks are examples. Sea Chem Buffer can be safely used for raising kH (& pH) in freshwater as well or you can use Sea Chem Alkaline Buffer as both are preferable and safer than baking soda, especially in community aquariums where baking soda can change pH too quickly (also SeaChem Buffers maintain a more stable KH). The added calcium and other elements keep a more stable KH/GH and add necessary trace and minor elements (of course, use in moderation in freshwater). This article will explain a little more about the need for other elements besides Baking Soda (HCO3): "Proper Osmotic Function; Electrolytes". Wonder Shells are an excellent compliment for raising Calcium, magnesium, and electrolyte levels quickly when used with aragonite or even Baking Soda, however by themselves they do not raise KH much (they are great for Calcium and electrolytes though and for maintaining KH).
Sea Chem Buffers or similar products are better for pH/kH control in livebearer and African cichlids aquariums or a combination of Marine or Malawi Buffer and Wonder Shells. Before I over promote Wonder Shells, these can aid in proper water management, but they are not a magic bullet in ANY aquarium for poor aquarium husbandry such as mulm build up under gravel or decorations. Aragonite or crushed coral is sometimes employed for KH and GH stabilization, however aragonite and crushed coral (as with Wonder Shells) only stabilize KH and should not be used in place of a true KH buffer such as Sea Chem Alkaline Buffer . I do not recommend aragonite for soft water or general aquaria. Aragonite is good at stabilizing a higher kH of around 240 ppm or more, which is the minimum KH (alkalinity) needed for Marine Aquariums, but does not respond to changes rapidly enough at lower kH levels. Even in marine aquariums with aragonite, this may not always be enough to maintain a proper KH (alkalinity) level, especially in tanks high bio loads and without adequate water changes (even skimming can remove some elements).
In lower pH community tanks (6.8 to 7.4) KH buffers such as Sea Chem Alkaline Buffer are still important, however I like to counter these with natural lower pH “buffers” such as Almond Leaves , Peat, and/or Mango/Drift Wood. Buffering your freshwater aquarium is especially important if you have plants fed by CO2 which will raise pH during peak growth times, and there is scientific evidence that GH plays a role here as well; please see this article for more about this subject: “AQUARIUM PLANTS; see PROPER NUTRIENTS ”
Back to baking soda, this is an old stand by method based on the fact that baking soda does raise pH and kH, the problem is there is much new research to show that calcium, magnesium, electrolytes and Redox play a more important role in aquatic chemistry than just pH or basic kH alone (which is another reason good old fashioned water changes often help improve fish health). Unfortunately the aquatics hobby is full of aquarist (especially in forums or uninformed LFS) that regurgitate this old information without checking the facts. If Baking Soda is used, I recommend using Wonder Shells to added needed calcium and other important electrolytes.
If you have a very unstable KH level (drops rapidly), look into causes such as a large amount of decomposing organic material. The more organic break down (de-nitrification), the more acids produced. Some filters if not cleaned regularly can cause this; including canister, UGF, and Wet/Dry. Please see the section about too low pH and KH problems lower in this article for more about solutions/causes to an unstable KH (near the bottom of the pH section).
For a really informative (and scientific) article about the relation of KH (Buffers) and pH, please follow this link: pH of buffer - Henderson-Hasselbalch equation "
what kind of filter do you have? do you have a large number of live plants? have you increased your water temp?
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Post by Carl on Oct 21, 2008 11:29:03 GMT -5
Thanks Jon, I think you covered this well, as this confuses me as well, which as in other posts dealing with this problem it leaves me wondering if there is a large amount of organic mulm/decomposition.
This is the key point!!!!
Unfortunately Wonder Shells cannot help with this, your GH indicates that your Wonder Shell is working as best it can.
As I have mentioned in previous threads, I would consider changing your gravel via partial gravel changes of no more than 50% (50% every six weeks or 25% every 3 weeks).
I still question the possible accuaracy of your KH test kit, however you noted that your KH test of your tap water did show a positive number.
Carl
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Post by Carl on Oct 21, 2008 11:31:44 GMT -5
Thanks John as well, I am multi tasking here as well at work, so I am reading, answering the phone, etc. So your answers came while I was still thinking this through and your post gives a god overview of where the problem lies, now we all need to figure out "why"
Carl
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Post by murdock6701 on Oct 21, 2008 12:51:20 GMT -5
Cashay - have been talking w/ carl - here is a transcript of our emails - unfortunately the earliest postings are at the end - hope this helps - John
"you got it boss!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl Strohmeyer [mailto:americanaquariumproducts@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:47 PM To: John Laffin Subject: RE: howdy
Could you foward the emails?
Thanks Carl
American Aquarium Products Aquarium Information
Join us at "Everything Aquatic", the best fish forum around! Everything Aquatic
--- On Tue, 10/21/08, John Laffin <john@thevillagetc.com> wrote:
From: John Laffin <john@thevillagetc.com> Subject: RE: howdy To: americanaquariumproducts@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 10:19 AM
have you let het know or should I forward our emails to her?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl Strohmeyer [mailto:americanaquariumproducts@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:15 PM To: John Laffin Subject: RE: howdy
Yes, it is likely some sort of organic mulm/buildup. Your point as to her nitrates is good, as this also is usually high when mulm is a problem, which leads me to anaerobic activity (in the gravel) which will break down nitrates but produce nitric acid in the process, thus depleting KH.
Carl
American Aquarium Products Aquarium Information
Join us at "Everything Aquatic", the best fish forum around! Everything Aquatic
--- On Tue, 10/21/08, John Laffin <john@thevillagetc.com> wrote:
From: John Laffin <john@thevillagetc.com> Subject: RE: howdy To: americanaquariumproducts@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 9:52 AM
that's why I asked her if she had a lot of plants and an increase in tank temps could cause rotting - wonder of unfer her gravel is the evil concentration of ibroen crud, nut that would show an increase in nitrates right? thanks my friend, she sounded desperate.....could mulm be the culprit?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl Strohmeyer [mailto:americanaquariumproducts@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:43 PM To: John Laffin Subject: Re: howdy
Got it John!
Thanks for yours and Jon's input. I think she has a problem of organic decomposition for whatever reason in her tank. The hard part is why and where, as nothing is jumping out at me (no smoking gun)
Carl
American Aquarium Products Aquarium Information
Join us at "Everything Aquatic", the best fish forum around! Everything Aquatic
--- On Tue, 10/21/08, John Laffin <john@thevillagetc.com> wrote:
From: John Laffin <john@thevillagetc.com> Subject: howdy To: "Carl Strohmeyer" <americanaquariumproducts@yahoo.com> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 8:23 AM
Cashay seems to be having a problem w/ her water parametersand no one has jumped in - can you help her out - I'm at work! thanks - John
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Post by cashay on Oct 21, 2008 14:07:15 GMT -5
Well i am scratching my head also. I was asked how much do I vacuum, well it is one of those siphon vacuums so I get as much as I can with out taking out more than 25-35% water, that's why I do the water changes every other day because I am vacuuming it out every other day, I have about an inch of gravel all the way around the tank, (have taken a lot out,) thinking of the buildup, But I think I am going to take it all out except for the three spots i have live plants. have to have some to hold the roots... the tank is only a five gallon tank (still waiting to buy a bigger one) I don't have anything laying on the bottom except for the hydro sponge filter, which I vacuum underneath it . So I don't know ... I am going to take all the gravel out tonight when I get home and see if this makes a difference! as far as any buildup. mulm or whatever... what do you think?
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Post by jonv on Oct 21, 2008 14:19:52 GMT -5
There we go then. I remember almost about a year ago or so I had been talking to Carl via YA and brought out this issue before. I'm pretty convinced that tanks under 10 gallons will always have water chemistry issues. I took a 2.5 gallon bow tank for a Betta, took media from my established filters, put it all over the filter packets it had plus a small bio wheel, and the thing always showed ammonia and nitrite in the water. Go figure.
I don't know how to prove this, but I strongly believe that tanks under ten gallons cannot be fully cycled and will have instable water chemistry if that helps at all. There must be too much organic waste build up in that substrate eating up all your hardness values. You might have to keep a substrate of crushed Coral Sherry.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 21, 2008 14:47:36 GMT -5
Maybe your test kit was off. Also, John and Carl had some really helpful and detailed advice but Ihave some more to throw in.
Cashay, I am pretty sure organic mulm was an issue before. But you've never mentioned if your tank has actually looked "dirty" as far as I can remember. When you clean out your tank, is it really dirty, like waste all over the place or just a little? Also, every other day seems a lot for vaccuming. Perhaps that with so many water chnages is bringing your KH down if your local water has a low KH/PH. Maybe you could get some pics to show us..
Also, if a siphon is not removing a good deal of the mulm, you may want to consider a battery-powered vaccum if you don't already have one. The kind of vaccum I am talking about is the kind that filters out waste through a bag and the clean water flows out.
Another thing, how often do you add the SeaChem Marine Buffer? I add mine after each water change and add any for the water I take out. for example, if I have a 5 gallon and I remove 2 gallons of water during a water change, I would add the amount of SeaChem Marine Buffer used for 2 gallons, not 5.
Hope I helped.
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Post by cashay on Oct 21, 2008 15:26:11 GMT -5
Yes I do use the buffer, and I'm sure getting another vacuume would be better,But right now I use what I have and just do the best I can, The water never looks dirty, It is crystal clear! but I am going to take out the gravel tonight and see if I see any changes in the next couple days.
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Post by murdock6701 on Oct 21, 2008 16:17:20 GMT -5
what kind of filter do you have?
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 21, 2008 16:42:06 GMT -5
I think she has a Hydro Sponge.
...Sorry Cashay. I'm not sure what's wrong. Your test kit may be inaccurate but I'm not sure.
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Post by Carl on Oct 21, 2008 16:48:33 GMT -5
I would consider adding Buffer each time you change water if you are not already.
Personally I have found using a Gravel Vacuum more efficient than a Battery Vacuum as you get the DOC out of the water, although the Battery vacuums can be useful for vacuuming AFTER water changes to remove some extra organics, however these "collection bags" tend to let a lot of organics through unless you line it with Poly Fiber.
Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 21, 2008 19:44:58 GMT -5
I agree with the buffer....but adding a buffer will help the levels....but it is only a band-aid. more importantly I feel we need to figure out the problem. as for a bad or mis-used test kit, that is possible. IMO, the best way to prove it is to take a water sample to a reputable fish dealer and ask them to test all things you test for. if both numbers are close, it isn`t the kit. also, a battery powered syphon isn`t cheap and usually quite un neccessary. alot of suction happens when a syphon is started. maybe a smaller hose on the vaccuum. that will give you more time to thouroughly vaccuum.
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Post by cashay on Oct 22, 2008 10:21:44 GMT -5
That's correct i use a hydro sponge and a whisper filter, I squeeze the sponges out, a few times a week just to try cleaning them out a little, but I use the water from the tank after removing it... should i be using tap water? I was thinking about the good bacteria by not rinsing it under the sink.... I am going to stop off at the pet store again after work this evening to see if I can find almond extract, I do use a little buffer with the water changes every time.not always the whole cap full like it says per 5 gallons but some,since it is frequently I do water changes, What is the difference between the gravel vacuum, and the siphon one? I am also going to get another test kit, but I have two different PH tests and even on the one I'm assuming is bad still says the same as the other one... so I'm not to sure that it is all that wrong... I don't know guys I am so confused! AHHH didn't think about the smaller hose either, that sounds like a good idea, unfortunately it isn't battery operated... ha ha I put the ole lips to the sucker.. tasted the nasty water once! hahaha but thank goodness wasn't much.. although since then my skin seems a little scalelly... ;D just kidding
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Post by demfish on Oct 22, 2008 10:39:58 GMT -5
Oh wow! Thought I was the only one who stated a siphon like this.. eeeewww spit! I have a marble that I plug the siphon with, while I'm cleaning the tank.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 22, 2008 10:44:58 GMT -5
you can`t be a true fish keeper unless you have gotten at least a mouthful of fishwater....
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Post by 8 in the Corner on Oct 22, 2008 10:49:54 GMT -5
That's correct i use a hydro sponge and a whisper filter, I squeeze the sponges out, a few times a week just to try cleaning them out a little, but I use the water from the tank after removing it... should i be using tap water? I was thinking about the good bacteria by not rinsing it under the sink.... I am going to stop off at the pet store again after work this evening to see if I can find almond extractAHHH didn't think about the smaller hose either, that sounds like a good idea, unfortunately it isn't battery operated... ha ha I put the ole lips to the sucker.. tasted the nasty water once! hahaha but thank goodness wasn't much.. although since then my skin seems a little scalelly... ;D just kidding No, do not use tap water to rinse your sponges. You are correct to use tank water so as not to kill off your good bacteria with the chlorine and chloramine in tap water.
I hope you are not going to get almond extract (I think it was almond leaves) for your tank, I don't think that would help with your problem. It might make the tank water taste better, though, if you continue to suck on the siphon hose.
An easy way to avoid the taste of tank water (is to not suck on the hose), you just submerge the entire length of the hose in the tank until all the air is out of the hose and then put your finger over the end of the hose, pull it out of the tank, put it in the bucket and then take your finger off the hose.... voila'..... suckless siphoning. Hmmm...suckless siphoning....sounds remotely like a forum I used to visit a long time ago..... remember that one, Jon?
John
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Post by cashay on Oct 22, 2008 11:05:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the good idea, But while I'm sitting here thinking about it, the hose is longer then my tank! I only have a little 5 gallon.. but I will try it... Oh and thanks for correcting me on the almond leaves! lol that would not have been good.. But really though I usually ask the people in the store first anyway, to help me find something... I went in to find the little hadron heater and couldn't find it. After explaining it to the person there, they knew what i was talking about and showed me where it was.. so I always have to ask or my little guys will be doing with out. BUT I am getting so much experience from y'all on here I will be a true fish keeper before long! ;D OHH and demfish what does the marble in the hose do?
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