Goldfish Disease Identification

[goldenpuon]

Today I finally had to treat, Alden, the goldfish who has had white lesion-like bumps/spots on its tail (and in more minor instances of it, white smaller spots).

This was a large concern for me 3 years ago when it first appeared in July or August of 2008, but has hardly proved to be contagious and the fish has lived with it for years now without much problem. On any fish of the tank it shows up on, its is only the long-finned goldfish (primarily ones that end up resting part of their tail fin on the bottom on the tank when sleeping overnight). Alden is the only one who has it almost constantly. Some of my fish have never had this on their tails or have had it show up and disappear never to be seen again.

Today was the second day in a row I saw Alden looking weak and clamping its fins when I first looked at it when i got up. Both days, all I had to do was wave my hand and Alden would think it was being fed and act normal for the rest of the day. (It was as if the fish was sleeping and I had woken it.) Alden did (or does) however have a white slightly raised bump that is reddish in the little on its caudral fin. (I netted Alden and applied Potassium Permanganate to its tail).

I remember trying to treat this with Herbal Ich Attack and Paraguard 3 years ago when it first showed up without luck.

For now I have thoroughly darkened the tank by blanketing it, increased salt content by almost 2x and am applying the potassium permanganate to Alden tail as needed. For now, I think I am ok as far as treatment and unless the fish worsens or this doesn't help, I will let the fish's own immune system handle this (as I have for the past 3 years).

Anyway I spent a few hours researching this problem. It appears I am not the only person who has had this problem with their pet goldfish and had trouble treating it. Other have reported this happening with their fish and the spots appearing on and off. They have also mentioned this primarily affecting long-finned goldfish.

Here are a couple sort of old picturs of Alden to show what the spots look like. (Sorry for the bad quality since they are close-ups). This is a time when the spots were mild so its a bit hard to see since its not very bad here.




Here is a similar picture of a fish with a similar problem and an article about someone with a goldfish with the same problem as Alden.

Web page link to a person who tried to treat their fish that had this..
thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/ingrids-moor-rashi-and-the-mystery-spots.html

And here is the link a picture of a fish with this.
[a href="http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/Cypriniiform%20PIX/Goldfish%20PIX/Sid-whitefluffyspots[1].JPG"]http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/Cypriniiform%20PIX/Goldfish%20PIX/Sid-whitefluffyspots[1].JPG[/a]

At this moment in time, I am not looking for help on how to treat this (though I may very well later if needed). What I am wondering is does anyone know what this is? On the forum discussions I have seen where people asked for help with a fish with a problem like Alden's, I have mostly seen people say it was carp pox, saprolegnia, and lymphocystis but I do not trust many of these sources.


I want to get to the bottom of this if possible. It is something the fish is able to live with, but I would like to find out what this is.

[Carl]

if your fish is similar to the links provided, this may be Ichthyophonus, which would explain treatment difficulties.

That said, I am not sure as the slides in your link have multiple possible pathogens, but one shows pathogen that may be Ichthyophonus protist.

This also assumes what your goldfish has is the same.

I think your current treatment regimen is a good one, including the swabbing with Potassium Permanganate

Also if I am correct you use a bare bottom tank as compared to gravel (unlike the aquarium with a similar sick goldfish in your link); this is helpful for prevention and treatment of tail sores, regardless of cause.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I looked at all the symptoms - bulging eyes, loss of color, etc. in the article and the fish has none of these except the nodules which ONLY appear on the fins. I have also seen this appear on Oranda (another long finned goldfish in a separate tank) on very very rare occasions that has had little contact with Alden over the years I have had it.

Does Ichthyophonus often affect the fish and not kill it? Alden has had this 3 years is which is why I ask this.

Lastly, if I were to use iodine, is this very harsh on the fins and if say a few drips got into the water, could it kill the fish? I have iodine which may be more effective because its harsher, but am concerned about its toxicity to the fish.

Thanks for the help.

Renee

[Carl]

First, the other symptoms are meant not as all or most should be present, rather Ichthyophonus may cause just one or more of the symptoms depending upon where the Ichthyophonus protists have metastasized.

I was also basing this possible diagnosis was based on the slides from the other web site you provided, it does not mean your goldfish has the same problem.

Tincture of Iodine can be used, but it is important to not allow much into your aquarium (a quick dip into some "throw away" water after the swab can help prevent this issue)
See: Aquarium Fish Swabs, Dips

Carl

[goldenpuon]

First, the other symptoms are meant not as all or most should be present, rather Ichthyophonus may cause just one or more of the symptoms depending upon where the Ichthyophonus protists have metastasized.

I see. That makes sense. I know with fish (and human ) diseases that not all possible symptoms will be rest in the vast majority of cases.

Thanks for the input as well on the iodine. I never imagined so many everyday household items could have practical applications for fish!

UPDATE: Even though I only swabbed the fish once yesterday, the worst white spot area (the one that caused me to choose to use Postassium Permangante to swab it) is no longer red, is not nearly as raised, and looks a lot better. It is still white and fairly large for one of those tail sores, but am very impressed with the improvement I have seen in only 24 hours.

I wonder if I can almost totally eradicate it for good from the tank this way if the results continue to look promising! Of course, I'd have to swab some other fish a bit: Aztec and one that has had a super super mild case (Nemo) too. (And Oranda who is in a different tank).

I plan to do the swabbiing for Alden every other day (due to lack of time mostly). As well, yesterday after I caught Alden and applied the Potassium Permanganate, I am very happy to say that the fish showed no signs of stress from this. (I have seen many of my smaller fish act stressed after a handling like this.)

[goldenpuon]

I got much newer pics with Alden. Unfortunately, I stopped the swabbing/treatment because of two midterms to study for one weekend and due to my mother being at the hospital all of this (It has been very physically and emotionally draining).

Once things are settled down, I will be able to continue treating Alden with the Potassium Permanganate swabs. The fish will be alright for now. It ha had this for 3 years on and off and in varying severities without treatment. Waiting a bit will not hurt the fish. Alden is acting completely normal right now despite the white nodules/spots on its tail.

Anyway, here are the pictures.











If anyone can give me a more definite diagnosis now that I have better pictures, that would be helpful.

Thanks.
Renee

[sammiesam]

Hey Renee,
Just an idea, I have noticed these on my goldies before too when I thought that they were suffering from septicemia - I treated with antibiotics for two weeks and it seemed to clear it up, they also had streaking in their tails though too, can't tell if yours does with his orange color, mine all have white tails. But this looks liek what my fish had.

Also I know yours are old just like mine are and I know my fantail - fancy guy has these bumps right on the edges only like in yours and I feel like they are just almost like a cartilage build up or hardening of the fins as she has had them for a couple years now and doesn't seem to change or spread or anything. So that might be another possibility. I'm just basing that off my human anatomy/physiology knowledge, seems like it might be plausible but that's just a guess from me.

But when I also googled this what I got was parasitic infection and pictures that look similar to yours.

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the input Sammie! Alden gets streaking on its tail on occasion, but right now, the fish doesn't have that from what I could see. I would agree that the cartilage would be possible, but the white bumps on its tail vary in size, become worse, then better, and sometimes disappear completely. That is a good suggestion though on what it could be.

It could be parasitic. But whatever this parasite or disease is, I am thankful it seems pretty noncontageous and is definitely not fatal.

Renee

[Carl]

Also I know yours are old just like mine are and I know my fantail - fancy guy has these bumps right on the edges only like in yours and I feel like they are just almost like a cartilage build up or hardening of the fins as she has had them for a couple years now and doesn't seem to change or spread or anything

I think this is a very plausible explanation

Otherwise only a microscope slide would tell more.
Barring a "slide" which is also not always conclusive either, the only tools available is testing via response to treatments that we know work for certain conditions/pathogens.

Other than Sam's possible explanation (or similar) I would say that these nodes look to be either a relatively benign (but stubborn) infection of Saprolegnia or Ichthyophonus.

So IF ANY treatment coarse is followed, it would be for these potential pathogens (such as the PP swab)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the input Carl. I will try the Potassium Permanganate again and swab every other day once I have more time/am able due to my circumstances.

I have seen Alden show some mild distress on some pretty infrequent occasions related to this. The one swab I did over a week ago seemed to help immedietly (within hours of me applying it), so if the Potassium Permanagate swabs work, its is great. If not, I'll let the fish be after that.

Renee