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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 21, 2011 14:19:17 GMT -5
Hi everyone! I am new to this board, however, was reading some of the articles on this site and am very impressed (and trust me...I have read A LOT of fish articles). The creators seem extremely knowledgeable and I am in need of help ASAP. My goldfish of 11 years is not doing well. After performing one of my weekly 25% water changes, he began gasping around the tank. A few minutes later he began floating upside down and gasping at the surface as if it were his very last moment. He was beginning to get stuck to the filter...showing he had absolutely no strength to control where the filter current would take him. There were a few seconds there that my entire family came and stated that they think he is dead. Then after a few moments he trembled, flipped himself right-side-up and went to the bottom of the tank. He has now been doing this for the last 3 days and it is honestly the most awful thing to watch. I love my goldfish. He has been a part of my life for more than a decade and I can't stand to watch him suffer. I feel like since he hasn't died yet, but has been so close several times that there is something I can do. I immediately checked his params after the first occurrence and there were traces of ammonia...not dangerous amounts according to my test kit...but I am big on keeping my ammonia at 0 and so any amounts of ammonia scare me that this is due to ammonia poisoning. Also, I tested the water AFTER the water change since this is when I first noticed signs, which indicates to me that the ammonia was only worse prior to the weekly change. The thing is, I do a change every week and have been in this routine for around 9 years...I don't know what changed So given the back story...here are the SYMPTOMS: - He has a small red dot on his left gill - He has continued to breathe very rapidly - His gills seem to have expanded...I can see the layers of gill - He has some reddish streaks on his tail, however, this has been like this for years...he is a very strange fish and although we have treated for this symptom before, he got better yet the streaks never went away - He seems as though he is swimming better then every once in a while he goes into a spasm (his whole body shaking), swims really strangely, then appears dead and snaps back out of it - He also hits himself against the walls of the tank randomly...we will run into the room after hearing a large thud - Sometimes he flashes and scratches, which led me to think this may be some kind of parasite, however, there are no noticeable external signs and I feel like this late in the game something external would have manifested...I also know fish irritated by water can show this same symptom This may be me just being anal and looking for anything possible to come to a conclusion about this and treat it, but when I shine a flashlight it seems like his head/gill plate may be a little rusty brown..his body is fine...this made me think maybe velvet but again there are no obvious signs and I am in my analyze mode Please please help if you can shed any light on this. Right now I am treating with twice a day Methylene Blue/Salt baths and with a Maracyn I and Maracyn II combo inside the tank (not sure if this was the best to use but it was 10 at night and everything was closed but I owned these products so at that point I was willing to try anything). Hopefully if it's a bacteria the MI/MII will fight it, but in case it does not, I bought Furan 2...problem is we are halfway through the treatment of the Maracyns and I'm supposed to wait 6...I just don't think I have 6 days with him if this treatment isn't working I'm so sorry for the LONG LONG e-mail...I just wanted to give any details possible to try and fight this...he's fighting so hard and I'm trying to fight with him. I forgot to mention he is in a 20 gallon tank by himself...and so any treatments I would like to be able to put into the tank without affecting the biowheel. I've been using nitromax to counteract any toxins as well. THANK YOU FOR READING THIS! I honestly really appreciate any help! <3 GoldieGirl
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 21, 2011 14:27:48 GMT -5
Also, is it possible to combine the Furan 2 into the MB Bath? And then to place him back into the tank with the MI/MII?
I have Paraguard on hand if there is any way to combine this into the current treatments to cover more grounds...didn't want to hit him with too too much as he is so weak. Thank you!
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Post by Carl on Jun 21, 2011 20:00:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliment and welcome to Everything Aquatic You can combine the Furan 2 with the Methylene Blue in the bath (as well as salt). I would use the Furan 2 at double recommended tank dose for about 1/2 hour See: Fish Baths Aquarium AnswersAs for the Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2, you can discontinue after a couple of treatments if you are seeing no effect (see Aquarium Medications 1; Changing Medications when ineffective) Also as for the two Maracyn products, these two are of similar gram positive bacterial properties (although Maracyn 2 has some gram negative properties too), so you definitely are getting a good one two punch for gram positive infections, but not too much for gram negative which make up the vast majority of aquarium pathogens. My point is that you may need to change sooner than later. See Aquarium Medications 2; AntibioticsI would keep up your checking of ammonia and nitrites too since both these antibiotics are hard on your nitrifying bacteria, especially Maracyn 1 (Erythromycin) You can add ParaGuard with Furan 2 (& even Kanaplex) for a very strong treatment that also can help with potential gill parasites. I would not combine this with the Maracyns though Have you checked you GH, KH, & pH? Your pH should be stable, your KH should be 150 + for goldfish and your GH should be 200 + for goldfish with constant replenishment of mineral ions too for better fish immunity. See Aquarium ChemistryAnother suggested reading is: Aquarium Disease PreventionBack to what your fish may have, I will be up front and say that you have symptoms that are not 100% specific in any one direction (which is why treatment charts often are wrong), but here are my thoughts (it could be combinations) * Aeromonas (possibly brought on by age and/or water parameter, such as lack of positive mineral ions, etc.) *Simply age and heredity * Gill Parasites, Flukes (however your fish is not evidencing these other than the flared gills) If Flukes are present using Potassium Permanganate in the bath INSTEAD Methylene Blue is suggested Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 21, 2011 21:20:00 GMT -5
Hi goldiegirl and I'm very sorry to read about your goldfish. I have 10 goldfish of my own at home and know how hard it is when they are sick/how close you can get to them. Welcome to the site as well. To the topic, did the gasping and acting like he was suddenly dying start after the water change suddenly? Was the fish acting abnormallly at all before? Is there any chance the fish was exposed to chemicals such as soap or others? The rapid breaking, gills seeming as if they are expanding (this fish seems to be desperately in need of air), and the rusty brown on his gill (if this is not his normal coloration) lead me to think this is ammonia poisoning. I am unsure if this started RIGHT after the water change or if he was acting somewhat strange before at all, but if this happened after the water change, I think the fish was already sick and/or suffering from ammonia poisoning and the water change aggravated it or possibly something was introduced in the water as well that was toxic. I have dealt with weak fish and ones prone to getting caught on a filter (like small tetras). I would recommend putting mesh (fish-safe) such as from a net or a ready-made type from a petstore around the filter to prevent/lessen the chances of the fish getting caught. This has saved a couple of my tetras and kept dying fish from getting stuck to the filter intake. A guess as to this (if the fish is sick) is a gill fluke. Another is perhaps the fish being "excitable" from how close to death it seems. Though I have not observed flashing and scratching in dying fish unless they were also sick with something, this is a possibility. Also, how long has it had the red spot on its gills? Is it getting bigger or spreading? If not, I would keep a close eye on the spot but assume it may be unrelated. As for the red streaks on the tail, I have seen this with my own goldfish for years (it started appearing on a couple of mine a few years after I got them and goes away and comes back regularly and never get worse or spread really among ish. It is also on the tail. If your fish have had this for years, I would not be terribly worried about the read streaks unless they get worse (that is possible with how weak the fish is at this point). As for treatments, I would DEFINITELY recommend adding Prime for the ammonia. This is especially important IMO because of the treatments you are using which can be hard on nitrifying bacteria. I would continue with the Methyline Blue baths as well and try to increase the salt levels in the tank as well. With Maracyn, I would also recommend discontining if you see no results. Also, I have had success with a female guppy that was severely stressed (still not as bad off as this fish) which had Columnaris and very likely a gill issue (she was VERY rapidly breathing). (She however had Colunmaris as well as some kind of breathing problem and I do not believe your fish has Columnaris.) I combined Melafix with Pimafix (both are safe to use together) and she made a full recovery. Paraguard is also an option (the Pimafix and Melafix combo is less strong from what I know but both are safe and not harsh on fish. (I do not recommend combining Pimafix and Melafix with Paraguard however due to the danger of overdose.) Also, how long has this tank been running and what do you have as far as filtration? I would recommend increasing aeration but making sure the fish has a secluded hide-away from current from aeration to prevent it from riding along in the current and to give it a place of refuge. Though I am not sure how much of an effect this would have with the fish, putting a towel or blanket over the tank will help with stress. (I discovered this by luck with my own goldfish but have not yet figured ou why it works with destressing). The GH, KH, Nitrite, Nitrates, and Chlorine at the time of the water change ( any chlorine will have dissipated by now however) would be helpful to know. Note: If you use Potassium Permanganate, use it in baths ONLY and not in the tank. Potassium permanganate depletes oxygen levels which is not what you want in this situation. That said, sorry for the overly long message and many questions. I want to cover all bases and offer every bit of advice/knowledge I can for this subject to help you the best I can. I wish you and your goldfish the best and hope it makes it. You and your goldfish are in my thoughts. Renee
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 22, 2011 2:33:47 GMT -5
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 22, 2011 3:10:08 GMT -5
Thank you Carl and Renee for the quick reply! I truly appreciate it SO much and am very very grateful for your help. Ahhh I just responded with the longest message on here, and it deleted Just my luck...I will try and remember what I wrote, although, it was all so specific! eek! To answer your question regarding GH, KH, and pH, his numbers have always been slightly low in these categories for as long as I can remember. I use RO water from a local aquatic shop that is free of any traces of chlorine, etc. then add a mixture to his water during weekly water changes that increases electrolytes, minerals, etc. in RO water. His levels have unfortunately always been somewhat low, however, I never wanted to add any artificial products to increase them as I heard then can often have adverse effects. It never seemed to harm him as I have been using the water for 11 years...it is possible that over the years the slightly low readings have affected him though :/ I noticed that his symptoms weren't leading up to anything specific, which leaves me so confused. It would be so much easier if I knew exactly what to do as now I feel as though I may be trying things that are leading me in the completely wrong direction. I, too, thought flukes were a possibility, however, I would think that if he had anything parasitic there would be more symptoms by now...especially because he is so sick and I'm assuming the disease has progressed (if it is a disease). My question is, will the MB Baths help with parasites? Not only gill flukes, but velvet, ich, etc.? Also, can the Baths cure parasites or would I need meds treating parasites in the tank to see any improvement in his condition? Additionally, how often can I perform the Methylene Blue Baths, and for how long? I have been doing two a day since Sunday night. Can I continue these until he seems better or will that do more harm then good? As far as the potassium permanganate bath goes, can I perform one along with the MB Baths to cover more bases? Or is that overkill? Because his symptoms don't lead to any particular conclusion, what would you say would be the best course of action? Would the Furan 2/Paraguard/Kanaplex combo cure him of any potential parasites as well as aeromonas? Do these products harm the good bacteria as well? So sorry for my many questions, I am just trying to do absolutely anything I can to help the little guy. Renee, I am going to try and answer your questions the best I can! And don't apologize for the questions...I am grateful you're helping: To the topic, did the gasping and acting like he was suddenly dying start after the water change suddenly? Was the fish acting abnormallly at all before? Is there any chance the fish was exposed to chemicals such as soap or others?
Yes, to what I'd seen, it only started about a half an hour after the weekly water change. Unfortunately, I was visiting my grandma for the week before and thus was not home to look at him daily. My dad was, however, and he is typically very good with my goldie as he often takes care of him with me. My dad said he hadn't noticed anything peculiar besides the fact that during a water change he was darting around. He said he assumed this was due to the stress from siphoning the water and that everything else seemed fine. As I said above, I purchase RO water so there is absolutely no chemicals or chlorine introduced into his tank. We are also big on NEVER using soap so I don't think there is any way this could have gotten into his tank. The only thing I could possibly think of would be that my dad may have rinsed some of his decorations under the tap water during a water change, possibly introducing chlorine, but again that wouldn't be in the main water supply added to the tank...and this is a highly unlikely possibility. The rapid breaking, gills seeming as if they are expanding (this fish seems to be desperately in need of air), and the rusty brown on his gill (if this is not his normal coloration) lead me to think this is ammonia poisoning. Yeah, me too I feel so so awful because if that is the case I could have prevented it. I don't know what would have caused the toxins to spike though as nothing changed about my routine. I did notice during the water change that there was more food at the bottom of the tank than usual so maybe he wasn't eating as much or my mom (who fed him this week) overfed him because he wasn't really eating and she thought he couldn't see the food and decided to put some more in to encourage him to eat...I'm not entirely sure. My mom has fed him many many times so this really wouldn't be a change in the last 11 years and so that is why I say maybe he wasn't eating and she added more because of that. I am unsure if this started RIGHT after the water change or if he was acting somewhat strange before at all, but if this happened after the water change, I think the fish was already sick and/or suffering from ammonia poisoning and the water change aggravated it or possibly something was introduced in the water as well that was toxic.To my knowledge it was only right after. Maybe the water change lifted up all the toxins from the rocks, causing a spike? This is very very saddening and I hope it is reversible. If he is suffering from ammonia poisoning can he recover? Or will he forever be messed up for as long as he survives? Also, if this is the case, should I continue treating with meds or will this only stress him out further? What would be the best steps to take if he was affected by toxins? I believe there is hope as he has survived the initial haul and hasn't gotten any worse in the last 2 days...if anything he is only looking up...definitely no where near himself though. I'm just at a loss of what to do Because there is no clear "disease" I feel almost helpless. Also, how long has it had the red spot on its gills? Is it getting bigger or spreading? If not, I would keep a close eye on the spot but assume it may be unrelated.I honestly didn't even notice the red spot until I was analyzing him due to his strange behavior. It is so tiny that you wouldn't think it were affecting him unless something else were wrong (which it clearly is). Also, I have had success with a female guppy that was severely stressed (still not as bad off as this fish) which had Columnaris and very likely a gill issue (she was VERY rapidly breathing). (She however had Colunmaris as well as some kind of breathing problem and I do not believe your fish has Columnaris.) I combined Melafix with Pimafix (both are safe to use together) and she made a full recovery. Paraguard is also an option (the Pimafix and Melafix combo is less strong from what I know but both are safe and not harsh on fish. (I do not recommend combining Pimafix and Melafix with Paraguard however due to the danger of overdose.)Would these products help with parasites if this is the cause of his problems? Also, can a fish get parasites without anything new being introduced to the water? No live plants, snails, ANYTHING have been added. He also shows no additional symptoms indicating parasites which leads me to believe it is otherwise... What does Paraguard treat? Does the Furan 2/Paraguard/Kanaplex combo harm the good bacteria in his tank? One thing I am worried about is treating him with too much. He is so weak that I'm afraid harsh meds may make him worse or put him over the edge Also, how long has this tank been running and what do you have as far as filtration? I would recommend increasing aeration but making sure the fish has a secluded hide-away from current from aeration to prevent it from riding along in the current and to give it a place of refuge. Though I am not sure how much of an effect this would have with the fish, putting a towel or blanket over the tank will help with stress. (I discovered this by luck with my own goldfish but have not yet figured ou why it works with destressing).This tank has been running for 2-3 years. He was previously in a 10 gallon and I upgraded him. I use a biowheel that is meant for a 50 to 60 gallon tank if I remember correctly. I did add an airstone right after I noticed the heavy breathing which seemed to allow him to survive his initial "death." I've kept it in ever since to increase oxygen levels. It is on the one side of the tank and he is now sitting on the opposite side. The GH, KH, Nitrite, Nitrates, and Chlorine at the time of the water change ( any chlorine will have dissipated by now however) would be helpful to know.
Unfortunately, I only took the params right after when I noticed his strange behavior. Everything seemed normal besides the little trace of ammonia..I then performed another water change and another one the next morning as well to remove any traces. Chlorine shouldn't be an issue due to the RO water :/ Sorry for MY many many questions. I just really want to fight this the best I can. He's still with me which makes me feel I am blessed to actually fix this. Hopefully whatever is done is not irreversible...my dad mentioned that maybe he has some form of dementia as he is hitting himself against walls Hopefully this isn't the case. I feel so bad for the little guy. He really is a trooper and has gotten through so many adverse situations. Thank you for any and all help you've given and can give once again! Hopefully I remembered everything from my last message and included it. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! GoldieGirl <3
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 22, 2011 3:43:51 GMT -5
One more question:
If I were to change medications in the main tank halfway through the course of treatment, how would I go about doing so? Like a 50% water change then add the new meds? I read the article, yet am just confused about that aspect of it.
Thanks!
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Post by Carl on Jun 22, 2011 9:54:25 GMT -5
*Methylene Blue is only a mild treatment against parasites, better for some bacteria and fungus and especially excellent for increasing oxygen to the cells See: Aquarium Medications; Methylene BlueYou should use Either MB OR Potassium Permanganate in baths once or twice per day for about 5-8 days *The Furan 2/Paraguard/Kanaplex is a strong combination that treats many parasites reasonably well (not as much for flukes though), and is much safer for your bio bacteria than your current combination, but still is harsh on your bio environment simply due to so much medication. *I would change 50% of your water plus run fresh carbon for about 2-3 hours prior to switching medications. *Even with the use of RO water, I agree with Renee as to the use of Prime if simply for any ammonia and its Redox reducing properties * As to this comment, can you explain what has been added? "To answer your question regarding GH, KH, and pH, his numbers have always been slightly low in these categories for as long as I can remember. I use RO water from a local aquatic shop that is free of any traces of chlorine, etc. then add a mixture to his water during weekly water changes that increases electrolytes, minerals, etc. in RO water. His levels have unfortunately always been somewhat low, however, I never wanted to add any artificial products to increase them as I heard then can often have adverse effects. It never seemed to harm him as I have been using the water for 11 years...it is possible that over the years the slightly low readings have affected him though"Even though you have done this for years, my experience has shown lack of essential minerals or poor water quality is often cumulative. I am not against the use of RO water, far from it as correctly re-mineralized RO water is the best possible water you can use for your fish. The key is correctly re-mineralized Please read this section of the Fish Osmoregulation Article: Use of RO Water in AquariumsCarl
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 22, 2011 19:04:35 GMT -5
Unfortunately I've looked for Kanamycin/Kanaplex EVERYWHERE and cannot find it. I may have to settle with just a Furan 2/Paraguard combo unless there is any other parasite med that you would recommend...maybe something for flukes?
The thing I'm afraid of with Prime (I have another brand that works similarly) is that it says it drops pH sometimes and the pH of his water is already in the low range for a goldfish.
I add Kent Freshwater RO Right during every water change. It is supposed to help with GH and KH.
Quick Question:
He currently is not eating and so I was wondering if it would be beneficial to add Vita Chem fresh formula directly to his tank water. This is what the product claims to do:
" * Concentrated vitamin solution for fish and other aquarium inhabitants * Easily absorbed liquid supplement ensures full nutritional benefits * Fills in nutritional gaps to fortify marine and freshwater diets * New improved formula - now 10 times more concentrated Revolutionary water and tissue soluble vitamin formula designed for aquatic plants and animals. Vita-Chem provides vitamins in a biologically usable form so your aquarium inhabitants receive their full nutritional benefits for optimum health. Brings out intense natural colors of fish, increases growth, restores natural vitality of fish, helps increase resistance to disease, and more. Vita-Chem is also great for fin regeneration and preventing lateral line disease. It's the most effective concentrated environmental vitamin offered to the aquarium trade. Contains over 30 naturally occurring extracts bonded with amino acids and provides more active Vitamin C than any other fish vitamin. Use directly in the aquarium or add several drops to fortify dry, frozen, or live foods. Use 2 drops per gallon once a week and several drops on food five times a week."
Would you deem this beneficial?
Thanks guys! <3
GoldieGirl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 22, 2011 19:51:58 GMT -5
You're welcome. I'm very happy to help. This is true with some products such as PH Up and PH Down and some other products. However, some products are ok and actually stabilize KH, GH, and PH. For PH, the number isn't as important as maintaining it. KH and GH (which indicate mineral content) are more important. Things like regular wondershells add calcium and other minerals fish need that raise KH and GH and so do the SeaChem Buffer products. These raise GH and KH slowly and subsequently PH. I use SeaChem Marine Buffer for my goldfish (which doesn't raise the PH beyond 8.2 or 8.4). My only compliant with it is that with test strips, the PH may read higher than it really is up until 12 or so hours after adding it. But back to the subject, I do not believe in adding chemicals much or at least as few as possible. What do you add to the RO water to increase the electrolytes and minerals to be exact? RO water is fine to use as long as an approprirate amount of minerals and such are added since reverse osmosis (RO) water has few or no minerals fish need. It is also true fish can adapt to water conditions (even ones that are not ideal). If the levels are slightly low (as in maybe a KH of 130 instead of 150+) and maybe a GH of 190 instead of (200+), I would say higher levels would not hurt but you are close enough to what your levels should be. But if they are much lower, that can be an issue. I have the same problem with the water I use for my goldfish from the tap which has a KH of only 80 or so but has a GH of about 150- 200 and have had issues with the mineralization being too low in my water due to that. I think the disease would also have started to progress by now. This leads me to think the scratching may just be something irritating the fish or possibly *exciteable* as a result of what I suspect is ammonia poisoning more than anything at this point. Also, sometimes treating fish and diagnosing them can be a "hit or miss" thing. It can be hard to diagnose fish particularly over the internet without seeing the fish in person. For MB, it does treat parasites (mostly external I believe). (Carl, please correct me if I am wrong) but it is a mild treatment for mild to moderate infestations in most cases and if a fish has a heavy to severe infestation of something, baths and an in-tank treatment are needed. However, from what I can tell, it sounds like most likely, your fish does not have a parasite. So an in-tank treatment is not needed if this is the case IMO. MB baths once or twice a day is good and you should be able to continue them for a week more at least (MB is very gentle on fish and helps with oxygen). I have never given fish Methyline blue baths for periods longer than a week or so (though I know they can be done for longer) so Carl will probably have to fill you in on how long it is ok to do them. From my experience, MB baths are fine provided (1) one can continue as long as the stress of capture for the bath outweighs the benefits of using it and (2) the Methyline Blue is likely to do good for the fish. In my opinion, the second point is very valid as a reason for continuing MB baths for your fish. Also, I assume you already know this but DO NOT put the MB back into the tank after a bath or use it in the tank in general. It kills nitrifying bacteria hence why it is only used in 30 minute baths and not as a whole-tank treatment. For Potassium Permanganate, given your fish's symptoms, I would say it would be overkill especially since Potassium Permanganate depletes oxygen when it is used which is not what your fish needs. This is only an educated guess from experience and what you have told me, but if I were you, I would continue with the MB baths, add Prime to control the ammonia levels, keep the salt up to aid with stress, and not treat with anything else unless you notice new symptoms or find a reason to do so. Also, I am unsure if Furan 2 mixes safely with both Paraguard and Kanaplex. I think Carl should be able to answer this. The streaks on the fish's tail are most likely not aeromonas if they have been there several years (if it had just appeared I would be suspicious of aeronmnos), but in the case it is even after so long, the fish's immune system has kept it in check. Are there streaks anywhere else on the fish? If it is just the tail and the tail has been like that a long time with no other part of the body affected, I would let it be for now unless you start to see it get worse. Meaning to not treat for it. My own goldfish are affected by this (a few only actually) in the same tank as those without a trace. I often refer to teh fins as being bloodshot (though it does not affect the veins of the fins from what I know) and/or having red lines. I find darting during a water change (more like the nervous wanting to avoid the siphon type) normal unless the fish is tame/secure with a siphon in the aquarium. Was the darting frantic or just more of a normal "scared of water change" type? You not using any soap and avoiding contact with it is very good. A toxin introduced to the water was one of my concerns. I agree that rinsing decor' shoould not have an effect on the tank. I have done this with my tanks many times with no issues. As long as the decor' doesn't house a lot of nitrifying bacteria (which the vast majority of it does not), that is fine. The food at the bottom could raise ammonia levels if there is enough to cause a spike that is. I have found that fish do not eat well or as well when ammonia and nitrites are high depending on the levels and hardiness of the fish. The fish not eating as well and then your mom putting in more when the fish didn't eat it if the ammonia was already getting high would have worsened it. I don't know how much extra she added but that could be a contributer to this. If the rocks in the tank were properly treated before being added to the tank (if they were straight from an outdoor river) or purchased at a petstore where they were ready to use when thety were put in the tank, I do not think the rock scenario is likely at all. From what I know the toxins released by untreated rocks from rivers aren't ammonia. The fish lasting this long is a good sign. However, the severity of your fish's condition does not look promising. I hate to say this but I can't tell you whether or not your fish will live even if you do everything right. Your fish's genetics, you keeping the ammonia down and the fish as stress-free as you can, how bad the fish really was effected, its immune system and present health before this occured will all be factors in its surivival. I think further treatment with meds other than the MB would cause more harm than good at this point. Keeping the ammonia, nitrites, etc down and keeping the GH and KH high enough and stable, providing much aeration, keeping salt klevels at 2 tablespoons per 5 gallons, and keeping the water clean and the fish stress free is what I would recommend doing right now. I know the towelt hing to darken the tank might sound crazy but it does work with stress. I have seen this in my own goldfish and also seen improved coloration when darkening the tanks of tetras a bit. At this point, this is a sit and wait thing IMO to see if the fish can pull through. However, besides the possibility of your mother overfeeding, I would recommend looking into any other things that could have caused the ammonia to spike. As well, doing small water changes (not to large because the fish is already so stressed) would be a good idea to help keep the ammonia down. Say about 10% daily. I am not sure what exactly your ammonia levels are in which case a larger water change may be necessary. I consider anything 1ppm or over very dangerous and .5 or lower something to act on to lower if necessary with water changes and Prime and also something to keep a very close eye on. The fish not getting worse is very good and also that he seems slightly better. I understand how hard this is. I lost many goldfish at age 12 before getting the hang of caring for them and found that doing too much can be worse or just as bad as not doing enough. You are doing the best you can and if you are not doing anything I listed that could help, doing that is all you can at this point. I know this is far from a comforting answer and understandably hard to swallow. The red spot does not sound like a huge issue. It may have been there before or even be some dark orange coloration. My advice would be to leave it but just keep an eye on it. Paraguard treats (according to the bottle) ectoparasites (Ich. etc.) and external fungal/bacterial/viral lesion (Ex. finrot). it also says it is a fish & filter safe and does not alter PH which means it is saf for nitrifying bacteria from what I gather. And again according to the bottles/boxes... Pimafix treats fungal infectiosn on the body and fins, fungus or cottony growth, mouth and body fungus, and reddening of the fins & body, internal and external bacterial infections. Melafix treats wounds (aka open red sores), fin and tail rot, eye cloud, pope eye, body slime, and mouth fungus, and open body wounds. In other words Melafix and Pimafix are not the best options. Melafix is best for wounds and Pimafix is best for Columnaris and Saprolegnia and other cottony bacterial infections (not actually true fungus). They were right for the guppy I treated but not your fish. Furan 2 treats hemorrhagic sepricemia, body slime and eye cloud, open red sores, fin and tail rot, and bacterial gill disease. Bacterial gill disease seems like a pretty general term as I imagine more than one type of bacteria as well as small parasites that attack gills could be covered under this title. Signs of bacterial gill disease (although ammonia poisioning still seems more likely) are heavy breathing, bright red gills, sitting at the bottom or near teh surface. It also says visual diagnosis can be diffucult. (This probably is because bacteria cannot be seen.) Furan is gram-negative and gram-positive. Though I am not sure, I think Furan 2 MAY affect nitrifying bacteria *especially* since it is an anti-bacterial medication. I recommend that you check the Aquarium Medication pages for more info on fish meds and what they treat. NOTE: With the Maracyn in your tank, IF you were to treat with anything else, you would need to add the carbon back into your filter and do a 50% water change (probably two 25%'s given your fish's condition) to bring down the levels of medication in your water. Also, if you decide to stop treating with Maracy because you are seeing no results, you should also add the carbon back in and (for the sake of how weak the fish is), do 10- 15% water changes daily to slowly get it out of the water. This is really a personal decision, but I would consider Furan 2 an option if you were to treat further (though i don't think it is wise at this point), but would not myself due to the likelyhood that this is ammonia poisoning and that the fish is not getting worse so far. From what I have heard, ammonia poisoning can do permanant damage to gills but am not 100% sure how much the gills can heal after this. Also, after recovering from ammonia poisoning and becoming healthy again, fish can act fairly well to my knowledge. I agree as well that it is best to stop with the meds other than the MB baths for now. This could easily lead to overtreating and more harm/stress which your goldfish cannot handle at this point. Playing it safe and keeping a hands off approach with meds is what I think is best. I tank running 2-3 years should definitely be stable and fully cycled. Your filtration sounds good as well especially since this is a filter for a 50-60 gallon running in a 20 gallon tank. (A little over filtration is good IMO). I have also found sponge filters to help with cycling and controlling ammonia and nitrite levels since they provide a huge surface area for nitrifying bacteria. I generally don't use these as stand-alones unless I am dealing with fry or small fish since they provide biological and not mechanical filtration. In other words, when possible for dirty large fish like goldfish, I like to combine them with other filters that capture waste such as HOB filters like Whisper. Still, they do a great job keeping ammonia and nitrite levels low. The airstone was a very good idea. The fact that the fish found a place to sit on the other side of the tank is good since that should provide it some shelter from the current. It is very good that you are doing water changes since this will lower the ammonia. Try to keep them fairly small as mentioned earlier though to avoid stress if possible. That is true since you use RO water. Sorry I missed that. It's ok. I would be doing the same if one of my goldfish was having a problem like this. I hope your fish will be ok and am happy he has hung in there so long. That is a good sign. This is probably from the fish being very stressed, probably going through shock, and with all the other issues, part of the fish not being fully conscious/aware of its surroundings due to its condition. You're welcome. Best of luck with your fish! I really don't want to ask more of you but if you could provide a video and/or pictures of your fish, that would be very helpful. I hope this is not overly long as well. I am very detailed at times. :/ Take care! Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 22, 2011 20:05:02 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post and my last message that was crazy in length. I noticed you replied goldiegirl while I was typing.
Last I checked Kanaplex/Kanamycin was sold on Carl's website. For Kent freshwater RO, I looked it up and it seems like a good product from what I could see. (That actually answers my question about what you use for the RO water you add to put in needed minerals from my last post.)
For Vita Chem fresh formula, but from what I saw from the reviews of it on Amazon and its ingredients, it seemed very good.
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 23, 2011 1:03:01 GMT -5
No worries about length! I too am detail-oriented and actually really appreciate how thorough you are. Some new things I've noticed to wrap our heads around: - golden coppery color on gill plate hasn't spreaded - I forgot to mention that his neck (if that's what you'd call it) was a bit pinkish and swollen immediately after the gasping Sunday night ...the neck area is now flesh-toned (kind of) and bumpy as if it were some kind of tumor growing...I assume this was from whatever occured though and isn't a tumor? I'm not sure if any of you have ever experienced this before and could shed some light on the issue...? - he isn't gasping as much/breathing as heavily BUT I now notice that underneath his gills is abnormally red...not so much the wispy clear gills moving up and down as he breaths, but underneath that if that makes sense... It has only gotten redder as I didn't even notice that before. Maybe now that he's breathing less rapidly I can actually see inside there and see the damage...possibly? Not sure what to do about this...Furan 2? Or would it more be ammonia damage than an infection per say? - he is swimming less wobbly although his body is a bit deformed looking considering the bump on his "neck"...this bump isn't bloody looking or anything though so I don't believe it would be a part of the bacterial infection...very very strange...this has most definitely gotten more swollen/lumpy -tail and fins are ripped from his thrashing around...not ripped as in fin/tail rot ripped...it honestly just ripped after a thrashing session So those are my new observations...maybe they will help with something I've been doing relatively large water changes to help w the ammonia in case it was poisoning...OOPS! I don't mean to stress him out more and I reallly hope I haven't I took your advice with covering the tank Renee!!! However, I didn't cover with a towel as I was afraid of the tank getting too hot during the day and I didn't want to alter anything that would stress him. So I put up pieces of paper and taped them to the rim around the glass...seems to have the same effect! or atleast I'm assuming! the rest of the tank is covered with "grass" looking wallpaper Unfortunately I've been doing so much that I may be stressing him when what he needs to do is de stress I'm assuming ammonia poisoning would cause secondary infections though so maybe the meds are a good thing as well...who knows I just don't really know where to go from here I'm thinking of throwing the idea of a parasite treatment out the window so I don't stress him even more...unless the red behind the gill filaments is an indicator of gill flukes? Again, thanks for all your help! I will try and take a picture in the morning when there is a lot of light Bests, goldiegirl
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 23, 2011 1:06:56 GMT -5
Oh, and I wasn't there for the flashing/darting during the water change but my Dad said it was slightly abnormal compared to his normal behavior! probably not due to anything but water quality issues though I do know not to put MB in tank thank god!!! thanks for the warning though as that'd be bad if I were doing that! I'm gonna try putting the vita chem in the tank right now...worth a shot :/ maybe it will give him more of the energy and nutrients to fight this
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 23, 2011 1:46:50 GMT -5
Found this to help with nitrate poisoning:
Has anyone had experience with this or an opinion on it?
"How to treat nitrate poisoning
Green Tea Treatment (with caffeine) reduces the effects of nitrate shock or poisoning
Bring 1 cup of water to a boil and pour over 6 small bags or one large bag of tea (per 10 gallons of tank water) steep until water has cooled to room temperature; premix in fresh water during 5% (of tank size) water change before adding to tank.
Perform (3) 5% water changes daily for three to five days after treatment.
Increase water depth by filling tank as high as possible during and after treatment. Reduce water depth gradually.
Any grocery store brand will work as long as it contains caffeine.
If three days after treatment your fish hasn't shown signs of improvement; repeat green tea treatment.
If after one week fish hasn't shown signs of improvement; the following treatment may be beneficial
Chamber Treatment: for treatment of serious injury; goldfish curled, bent or spiraling
After you've gradually removed nitrates from tank or pond it may be beneficial to proceed with the following green treatment; using the tallest container you can find; double the height of your main tank; a tall waster paper basket with a fresh liner in it perfect for this treatment, or a tall pitcher if the fish is small; let's think of this container as a chamber tank. The additional water pressure may equalize the pressure inside the fish.
Chlorophyll is used in the green treatment and bath; known as the green blood of plants. Plant nutrition is synthesized from the basic elements in their environment and from photosynthesis; which is how green plants use sunlight to synthesize food from carbon dioxide and water; producing oxygen as a result. Chlorophyll increases the oxygen levels in the red blood cells, lessoning the effects of nitrate poisoning. Fish that have been poisoned or shocked by nitrates will greatly benefit over its use. Benefits of Chlorophyll
Premix 1 fluid ounce of liquid chlorophyll per gallon of treated water in a fresh water tub equaling the amount in portion to the size of the chamber tank. Use as much of your main tank water as possible.
The longer the fish remains in the chamber, the better, but only if proper aeration is provided. Depending on the severity of the poisoning, 1 to 3 weeks is recommended.
Match water level or depth in chamber tank to main tank; match temperature, pH and nitrate levels within 3 degrees before relocating fish to chamber.
Position the pump close to the surface for maximum surface action. Increased oxygen levels will be very beneficial.
Place fish in chamber tank; begin filling; pouring slowly; until the container is filled or just a few inches from the top.
Keep water temps as low as possible 50 to 60 degrees first week; gradually raise temps to normal; taking a few days to do so after treatment is completed.
Perform (3) 5% water changes every day the fish remains in the chamber tank. If the pump being used doesn't have beneficial bacteria; use water treatment that eliminates chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and nitrite; treating entire amount of water in chamber. Make sure to add fresh water gradually. If the pump does have beneficial bacteria, continue feeding normally even though the fish may not be eating, so your friendly bugs don't perish.
The fish should only be returned to main tank after it resumes normal behavior; first lower depth in chamber until it matches main tank depth; take a few days to accomplish this task. If the fish exhibit signs of distress; the treatment should continue.
To avoid the risk of shock, match nitrates, temps and pH levels in hospital tank to main tank within 3 degrees before returning fish home; this can be accomplished by performing small and frequent water changes using main tank water; taking a few hours to do so. Perform these water changes until you believe most of the chamber water has been exchanged.
Warning; if the fish remains in the chamber tank for more than a few days, your friendly bug colony may decline in the main tank. Whether or not you have other fish remaining in main tank or not, it is wise to continue feeding your normal amount. When you feed your fish, you're also feeding your friendly bugs. Keep a close watch on water parameters for the next few days; your cycle may spike.
Chlorophyll may temporarily tint light colored fish.
Keep nitrate readings in main tank at a maximum of 10 over the next few months.
If you do have high nitrates all of the fish are being affected; some more sensitive than others.
To encourage long term recovery; gradually lower temperatures in main tank to as low as 60 to 65 degrees for the next few weeks.
Follow up with a daily water change of 5% to 10% instead of weekly or biweekly changes. Keeping nitrate levels consistently low will help speed recovery. Add back fresh water gradually.
Goldfish that have been poisoned by nitrates develop extreme sensitivity to the toxin, tolerating it only at low levels
If nitrates are an ongoing problem in your tank or pond, check the nitrate levels in your tap water first and foremost; if this isn't the case; consider some or all of the following options: 1. Increase water changes; reduce stocking levels; test frequently 2. Encourage algae or plant growth; plants feed on nitrates keeping your tank or pond water safer, allowing you to change out less water; less frequently. Algae and Green Water 3. Check under ornaments and decorations for build up of waste. 4. Periodical use of water treatment that eliminates nitrates.
If you are on a well; live in a rural area; have your nitrate levels checked yearly, for your goldfish's safety and your family's too. High nitrates are often found in farming communities due to the use of fertilizers."
Also, it was suggested to lower the temperature of the tank to help with oxygen by increasing AC, putting cold water bottles in the tank, or putting a fan towards the tank...sounds stressful...but helpful?
Sorry trying to find as much as I can!
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 23, 2011 2:01:50 GMT -5
Sorry for my MANY questions, BUT do either of you know if vita chem is okay to put in the water while administering meds?? I know it sometimes treats things as well but isnt a medication
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Post by Carl on Jun 23, 2011 9:22:13 GMT -5
Here are a few thoughts/answers: *VitaChem should be safe to use in tank, however it is best used as a fish food soak. This product has been out some time, so I had quite some time to test this product, and have found no positive results unless used as a fish food soak (& even then only minor positive results). *Prime does not effect pH (except in rare cases of unstable water); I strongly recommend its use or a similar product, Amquel Plus *Nitrate poisoning is a long term problem for Goldfish that takes a long time of high exposure to cause issues; however ammonia and nitrites are much more serious. Please thoroughly read these articles: Aquarium Nitrates The Aquarium Nitrogen cycleAs Renee has also pointed out, ammonia or nitrites are more likely your problem, the addition of a Sponge Filter may help here, especially since the Bio Wheel is an over rated bio filter. As for nitrates, while I do not argue that these may be playing a role, you need to address the issue of lowering IF high, not high nitrate therapies (which Methylene Blue will do more than the caffeine in the green tea therapy). Also as for the Chlorophyll Remedy the use of Spirulina in the diet can also perform similar effects and with more immune system benefits, however your fish immune system is affected by Redox as well, which I believe is a major issue here as well *RO Right only adds trace elements and does not fully correct GH & KH; did you read the article about adjusting RO water I posted yesterday? Bluntly this product, although a good first step is FAR from adequate for goldfish in RO water *My guess is your fish is suffering pH shock with your water changes since the RO water is likely very low when added and this can be very dangerous as although many aquarium keepers over worry about pH as per its exact number, the main issue is sudden shifts in pH Please read: Aquarium ChemistryThis is a must read as I think you have been misled Knowing these parameters as well as ammonia and/or nitrites is a must to properly help your aquarium; as test kit or strips are a must. *In my opinion, if you cannot buy online, you need to find a local store that know more about fish care and sells more researched products; I base this on the fact you cannot find Kanaplex anywhere as SeaChem (which make many premium fish treatments, chemicals such as Prime and Stability) is considered far and away the best in the industry. As well I am shocked that someone would sell you the Maracyn 1 & 2 combination; these are over lapping and a dangerous combination of treatments as per your aquarium biology Also be careful of much of the information published on the internet, bluntly much is simply wrong or at least misleading. *Finally, I have my doubts parasites are a problem based on your description and other points you have made, so I would not be over concerned in this area of treatment. Your main concern appears to be water parameters from ammonia to GH, to buffers as well as opportunistic bacteria (as well as genetics) Carl
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 23, 2011 14:07:03 GMT -5
Thanks Carl, I do agree this is a water issue in regards to stability of everything. I just don't know what to do/how to change it now that he is so stressed...I feel like it may be dangerous to mess around with those levels now. Because I do add the RO Right and Salt to the water AFTER the RO water is added to the tank, it is possible that the pH change and other changes involved when I add the products to the actual tank water is affecting him. It is so hard though to dose outside the tank prior to adding the water as depending how much water I am taking out and putting back in I wouldn't be dosing the full 20 gallons, correct?? I did read the article on adjusting RO. It mentioned that the RO Right must be combined with other products, but it did not mention which ones would complement this specific product to make sure it fully adjusts the RO water. Could you list the products you believe would fully correct the water when added with RO Right? I will go to the store and get them today! As far as Kanaplex goes, I have actually visited a variety of fully aquatic stores in the area that do carry seachem, just not Kanaplex...weird I know. Not sure where I can find it. Someone actually even told me it was going off the market---not sure if that's true How would you avoid a pH shock when changing the water? I find it so challenging as I'm not exactly sure what makes it a certain pH in his tank nor how to make the RO water exactly the same without adding artificial uppers, etc. Water Chemistry is so confusing :/ Everyone seems to have a different way of doing things. Maracyn I/II has actually always been referred to me as a combo that is safe together as well as for good bacteria in the tank. That's why I originally used it over other products as so many fish owners had insisted it was one of the only products that does not affect the beneficial bacteria. If I knew it did I would have never put it in This is his main tank and he needs the beneficial bacteria so his water doesn't spike If you could outline the steps I need to take to alter his RO water to properly adjust it, that'd be very helpful. I'm not sure how to do this without majorly stressing him/adding it directly to the tank. I could possibly combine in the buckets with the RO water in them that hold 5 gallons and then add it to the water so that it disperses in the big containers so that no matter how much water I change it is not differed. Thing is those sometimes sit in the garage for a while until it is time for the next bucket for a water change, etc. They do not go bad if not in tank water or if sitting for a long time, correct? Maybe you have a better way of doing this... As far as nitrates go---I just checked them and they are safe. I do not believe this to be an ongoing problem. I have never tested his nitrates and seen they were high. The redox article really confused me, but I do believe it said it is one you need to read again to understand. Went right over my head! Ahh and usually I can easily make sense of things. I'm sure it is a more complicated topic and I will read it again/read up on it more. I'm going to buy more water and will pick up the sponge filter while I'm there. Can this be added in front of the carbon filter? It isn't in replace of it, correct? Thank you! I'm sorry for my questions---water chemistry confuses me even though I know the basics!
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 23, 2011 14:12:27 GMT -5
You're welcome. I'm glad to hear that. " I forgot to mention that his neck (if that's what you'd call it) was a bit pinkish and swollen immediately after the gasping Sunday night" Is this the area on his gills or somewhere else? A picture would be very very helpful. "the neck area is now flesh-toned (kind of) and bumpy as if it were some kind of tumor growing...I assume this was from whatever occured though and isn't a tumor? I'm not sure if any of you have ever experienced this before and could shed some light on the issue...?" Could you post a picture and/or video of the goldfish? I am not sure if you are talking about swollen gills or a problem on a different part of the fish around that area. I'm sorry but I will only be able to tell what it is for sure by seeing a video or photo in this case. "- he isn't gasping as much/breathing as heavily BUT I now notice that underneath his gills is abnormally red...not so much the wispy clear gills moving up and down as he breaths, but underneath that if that makes sense... It has only gotten redder as I didn't even notice that before. Maybe now that he's breathing less rapidly I can actually see inside there and see the damage...possibly? Not sure what to do about this...Furan 2? Or would it more be ammonia damage than an infection per say?" That is possible since if he isn't struggling for breath so much now, his gill filaments might be sticking closer together so you can see into his gills since he is still breathing heavily if that makes sense. However, this could be damage as well if his gills were severely hurt (which I think they are unfortunately...). I know you want to help this fish but I would hold off on the Furan 2. Until can see a picture so I can tell what if this fish has a secondary infection ass well as ammonia and nitrite poisoning, I would strongly advice holding off on any medications besides continuing the MB baths and adding Prime which I VERY much recommend in this case. I do not think your tank is stable right now with the ammonia going up and the medicane (Maracyn 1 and 2) you have put in. Adding anything else could mean the end of the fish or another spike which I consider very possible right now. "-tail and fins are ripped from his thrashing around...not ripped as in fin/tail rot ripped...it honestly just ripped after a thrashing session" Sorry to hear this. The fins are probably more likely to tear given this fish's weakened state and the ammonia poisoning. Out of curiousity, what was teh situtation tyhe fish was trashing in? In a net, randomly in the tank, on its side or scraping against something, etc? I hate to say this but the water changes may have. With the RO water which has little to no minerals and also the large amount of water changed each time, this is probably contributing to more instability with the KH and GH and quite possibly resulting in PH shock and rapid swings in water chemistry which is something to avoid since chnabges in water chemistry very much stresses fish in general. Please do not feel bad however. You are going above and beyond what most people would in caring for this fish and are doing your very best for this fish. "I took your advice with covering the tank Renee!!! However, I didn't cover with a towel as I was afraid of the tank getting too hot during the day and I didn't want to alter anything that would stress him. So I put up pieces of paper and taped them to the rim around the glass...seems to have the same effect! or atleast I'm assuming! the rest of the tank is covered with "grass" looking wallpaper" That is good you are attempting to cover the tankand kudos on taking that effort. Just to make sure, is the paper making the inside of the tank look dimmer/darker? The goal of covering the tank with towels or similar is to make the tank darker which helps with stress. Any material work as long as it darkens the tank. I used cardboard around a 5 gallon tank a couple times to get the same effect without actually using towels. Glad to hear you are trying this! Unfortunately, ammonia poisoning does make fish suspestible to secondary infections and diseases in general due to the fish's immune system being compromised. This does not guarantee the fish will get one but it can still very easily happen. The red behind the gill filaments is a sign that the fish has had a lot of trouble breathing and respiratory distress in general. With this, it is from ammonia poisoning. Also, I would like to point out that a red area exists behind fish's gills even when they are healthy but does not show up because the fish is breathing at a normal rate and its gills are not irritated. If one could see behind a healthy fish's gill plates, the area would be a reddish pink. The increasing redness points to gill irritation and gill damage. Keep the parasite treatment (aka don't literally throw it out) for future use if the fish were to get a parasitic infection (the fish has an increased chance of this even after recovery due to what it has gone through ). Abandoning the idea of treating fior parasites at this point is a good move IMO as well. "Oh, and I wasn't there for the flashing/darting during the water change but my Dad said it was slightly abnormal compared to his normal behavior! probably not due to anything but water quality issues though " That is good to know. When you say "flashing", do you mean itching or rubbing against things? That is what flashing normally refers to my knowledge. Nitrates are the least toxic of the three things that build up in one's water from the nitrogen cycle. Ammonia is VERY toxic, followed by nitrite in toxicity, which is followed by nitrate. Nitrate is something found in every aquarium that is cycled basically. First comes ammonia which is converted to nitrite by nitrifying bacteria which is then converted to nitrate by the bacteria. It takes a while for this bacteria to get established which is why ammonia and nitrite levels are high often when a tank is first set up after fish are added. Nitrate is different than nitrite. Nitrate should be kept lower than 40ppm unless you have a tank with live plants which consume nitrate and keep the levels low. I have never heard of this treatement for nitrate poisoning. I don't know if it works or not but the focus should be on treating ammonia and nitrite poisoning, not nitrate poisoning in this case. Nitrate can hurt fish and stunt them at high levels but ammonia and nitrite is much worse. Though I have not heard of the chamber treatment, I must say I do not think equalizing internal pressure has anything to do with nitrate poisoning or even ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Fish whirl, lose control of their bodies, and are carried in the current from this as a result of the fish's body shutting down due to the ammonia and nitrite in the water, when dying from disease, or just dying in general. (Not so much nitrate in the short-term unless it is at VERY high levels). Getting oxygen to fish is good but the MB does the same thing and not to say chlorophyll would not work for fish, but I am not sure if it has any side effects when put into the water or how effective it is. Since I do not know much about the chlorophyll, since it is proven not to have side-effects for fish even when overdosed and is proven to very much help fish with getting oxygen, staying with the MB baths would be the best course of action IMO. Plus in the chamber, unless you use a material with nitrifying bacteria established already in it from a cycled tank, you can expect levels of nitrite, ammonia, and nitrate to rise to dangerous levels in the container used for teh chamber treatment. I do not recommend this most fo all for this reason. Also, keeping water temperatures of 50-60F in the summer is difficult to say the least and would stress the fish with the major temp drop unless it is done over a period of days. As well, goldfish cannot be safetly fed much or at all below 55F due to the low temperature which has to do with digestion and slowing of their metabolism due to the lower temperature. So the recommendation to feed at anything lower than any temperature less than in the high 50's is asking for trouble in my opinion and a very bad recommendation IMO if your fish eats teh food put in. As well, in an uncycled body of water, ammonia will go up just from being released from the fish's gills naturally and purposely having leftover food is inviting pathogens such as saprolegnia and mold which consume leftover food and can also attack fish. Also, with this treatment, there seems to be confused that nitrate is a huge killer when ammonia and nitrite are what should be worried about mainly. Though I have not used Vita Chem, from what i can see from the ingredients, it only really contains minerals and such that should be found in fish food so it should be ok to combine with other medicines. I hope that helps. Trying to keep things simple is something to really focus on at this point. I remember my fish Aztec getting stuck in a filter intake 6 months ago or more. I felt like hitting the panic button when I noticed it has lost a whole area of scales on one side, on one of its gill overs and around one of its eyes, went to the bottom when I got it out, and had the beginnings of cottony growth on it. I waited a few hours to see how it did before doing anything which was VERY hard. I wanted to medicate it badly and felt panicky due to the other fish in the tank it could spread things to. I did nothing other than increase salt levels and darken the tank. I was pleasantly surprised to see it off the bottom within a couple hours and eating like usual within 24 hours of it! The cottony growth that was starting disappeared. Predictably, the scales never grew back and I think the Aztec might be a bit weaker still after what happened. I do not think the fish was stuck in there more than 4 hours at most so if I hadn't gotten there when I had, teh fish would have been in worse shape or it could have died and also would have needed meds and much longer to recover. To make a long story short, giving the fish time to recover and keeping interference at a minimum helped it greatly. This will not work in every case where a fish is stuck to a filter or caught in a filter intake of course as most of the time this is fatal if not caught very fast, but makes a point that leaving a fish be can be the best thing to do in some cases. I hope yoru fish makes it and that you manage to get your tank stable. Best of luck! Renee
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Post by Carl on Jun 23, 2011 15:36:22 GMT -5
*I am not sure how you missed the suggested products for correcting RO water, as they are listed in the Osmoregulation article. Here they are again as a paste from the article: Products that can aid in re-mineralizing RO water (many can be/should be used with other products for complete re-mineralization that includes carbonates)
Basic Electrolyte Replenishing Products: *SeaChem Replenish; Similar to Kent RO Right and API ElectroRight as a primary trace element/electrolyte replenishing product, although this product does add some buffers. *Kent RO Right This is for basic trace elements, electrolytes, this product does not add most necessary buffers and most major minerals that are especially necessary for general freshwater fish tanks, especially livebearers, African Cichlids, and Goldfish. *Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Electro Right; As with Kent RO Right, this is for basic trace elements, electrolytes, this product does not add most necessary buffers and most major minerals that are especially necessary for general freshwater fish tanks, especially livebearers, African Cichlids, and Goldfish.
KH Buffers & GH/Mineral Additives: *SeaChem Alkaline Buffer along with SeaChem Acid Buffer For balanced carbonate/bicarbonates for correct KH & pH. These are generally used for planted or low pH/soft water aquariums. *SeaChem Malawi Buffer (or SeaChem Marine Buffer); this would be the buffer of choice (used as directed) for Livebearers, Goldfish, African Cichlids, and similar higher pH/KH fish. I suggest using 1/2 the recommended amount in your RO water prior to addition to your aquarium then add to this until the desired KH is reached. *SeaChem Cichlid Salt (similar to SeaChem Buffer along with added sodium chloride salts) *Wonder Shells (an important compliment mineral replenisher; mixes well with Electro Right, Replenish, RO Right, SeaChem Buffer) or the similar SeaChem Equalibrium *SeaChem Equalibrium; Similar to Wonder Shells or AragoMight, but with more emphasis on Potassium and thus planted aquariums. In most cases I have found this product NOT the better choice.
These products can be used separately or together. The API ElectroRight, Kent RO Right only adds important trace minerals and no carbonates and is usually inadequate by itself. I generally would soak a Wonder Shell in RO water and then add Buffers (often both acid and alkaline for correct balance) or Cichlid or Marine Salt to further replenish major and minor elements as well as carbonates (which Wonders Shells have little carbonates).As Goldenpuon (Renee) noted she uses Marine/Malawi Buffer (both are the same) as these add minerals besides essential buffers for KH Please give the article another look I separated some of the suggestions in this article for more clarityBasically the use of a Buffer such as Marine or Malawi Buffer is a must or simple buffer such as Alkaline buffer plus a countering Acid buffer plus essential major minerals (and Cations) found in products such as Wonder Shells*To avoid pH shock, you need to add water of similar pH back into our aquarium, for this reason a pH test is a must See: Aquarium Cleaning; Refill* Unfortunately this is 100% incorrect which is what worries me as per the advice you have been given. Erythromycin (Maracyn 1) is mostly gram positive (about 95%) as are nitrifying bacteria and this product is generally known as per its dangers to nitrifying bacteria. This is not to say it is without its use (as I have and do use it when it is called for) Maracyn II is not quite so harsh, but it is still more of a gram positive antibiotic and the combination with Maracyn I makes for a potent "good bacteria" killer. Please Read this article (as well as the Nitrogen Cycle article I noted earlier): Aquarium Medications; Facts & InformationCarl
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Post by goldiegirl on Jun 24, 2011 17:05:30 GMT -5
vimeo.com/25572160Here is a video of my goldie. Click on the link to see. It wasn't letting me upload the video directly to the thread so I uploaded it to vimeo He normally doesn't swim this fast, although, he is no longer trembling or flashing. I consider flashing (to answer Renee's question) as him quickly darting and rubbing against his tank/decorations. Not necessarily to scratch his body, it seems, but more because he is freaked out and jumpy. I know it is hard to tell, but at the very end you can see the two bumps on his "neck." Completely separate from the gill area (also to answer your question). This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the gills. The video isn't the best of quality so it really is hard to see what I can when I look into his tank, but overall he is looking much much better...he couldn't even swim like this a few days ago. His body looks a little lopsided to me...if you guys can see that too? Maybe I'm just overanalyzing. Thanks!
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