ID help, please-- white opaque patches.

[aquaglory]

Hello everyone.

I tried to look up anything that might sound similar to what I'm seeing on my Cardinal tetras, but I am not finding very good matches. I also read Carl's info on the Saprolegnia, but again, not the greatest match to what I see.

A little background:
I am in the process of cycling my 36 gallon tank (see separate thread). Due to a bit of confusion on my part, I added Cardinal tetras before the tank was actually fully cycled (at least, this is what I think). I also had issues with new plants decaying from inadequate lighting and shipping trauma. This drove the pH down, not to mention being a source of a good amount of decaying organic material.

Now:
I started treating for Ich with Seachem Paraguard, 2 days ago (today day 3)-- the ich probably being triggered by the varying water conditions and a bit too rapid pH rise (as I was trying to rectify the excessively low pH and restore some alkali). I had done some water changes prior to starting the Ich treatment, too, to remove organic matter and help in raising the pH.

So, to try to explain: (I apologize for no pics, but I think it would be nearly impossible for me to take any meaningful photos, as the findings are rather subtle.) First of all, my Cardinals are all acting very lively, with some of them aggressively chasing others (there was one female with a tiny bite from her tail). This last mentioned female was the first to show a spot of Ich (not surprisingly). However, she is also the fattest one in the tank as she is eating the most! Also, she was the first that I noticed this whitish opaque patch on. To see these patches requires just the right angle of view of the body in just the right lighting (poses are not kept for more than a fraction of a second, if you know what I mean...). I've seen similar descriptions of the lesions, but usually the fish is listless and not appearing well. My Cardinals all act fine (I've had Cardinals before, so I'm familiar with normal behavior). I do not see enough elevation to notice any filamentation. The opaque areas look more like "foggy" spots blocking the full sheen in that area. Now I have noticed more of them on her, as well as on some of the other Cardinals. There is one patch at the base of the fin of one of the Cardinals that is a bit denser white (on a relative scale). All fish are eating Spirulina 20 flakes avidly.

I am currently treating the Ich with Seachem Paraguard and have been adding Calcium, Magnesium, and now am working the salinity up. I am also in the process of raising the temp in the aquarium (currently around 81F-- was a steady 78F at start of Ich outbreak).

Any other suggestions? Should I be worried? Should I try to give these Cardinals Methylene blue baths? Part of my concern with the last question is the prospect of stressing the fish even more by trying to catch them for the baths (as I said, they are acting their usual brisk selves-- no flashing occuring, BTW.)

Thanks in advance!

Nicole

[aquaglory]

I forgot to mention that I plan on having shrimp in the tank (Neocaridina), so I cannot use any treatments that include copper in the formulation or any other that might harm shrimp in the future. I have plants, too, so I cannot use Methylene blue in the tank, either.

BTW, I had to treat my 5 gallon established tank for Ich, as well, when I introduced some Otocinclus from another LFS into that tank. That tank has 3 remaining shrimp. I know that they made it through one day of treatment with Paraguard, but I will see how they hold out as time goes by. These shrimp tend to hide during the day, so I have to catch a peek late at night when the lights have gone out in the tank.

In addition, my 36 gallon unfortunately has uninvited hydra and snails. I thought I had thoroughly rinsed and cleaned the new plants, but obviously I was wrong. >( Well, these invertebrates don't seem to be much affected by the Paraguard, either (at least not the snails).

Nicole

[Carl]

Sorry that I have not been on as much (I have family from out of town visiting)

My thoughts are FNT Disease (False Neon Tetra Disease), I have an article at my Aquarium Answers website:

Neon Tetra & FNT Disease

Look over the descriptions there.

A bath is definitely worth while IMO (even without plants, I do not recommend Methylene Blue in a tank, especially one that has been struggling with the Nitrogen Cycle).

If this is FNT Disease, besides a bath treatments such as Erythromycin which are also very hard on your bio filter are in order for a cure. You might either add the Erythromycin to the bath (at double dose) or treat in a hospital tank.

I would also cease the use of cycling aids while this problem is being treated.

Carl

[aquaglory]

Thanks Carl.

Sorry to bother you when you have family in town, but what do I do if several of my Cardinals seem to be affected? It is so subtle in the beginning that I wouldn't doubt all of them being affected to some degree. Putting them in a breeder net would be crowding them (they already pick on each other when they have the whole well-planted 36 gallons to share!) I have a little 3 gallon tank that I can use for the baths (30 minutes, right?). I also have a sponge filter (not cycled), but I'm not sure what good it will do for me to use this filter and the 3 gallon tank, if I'm treating with Erythro., anyway-- just for water circulation? I read your article on FNT Disease (this could very well be what they have).

I will head on out to get the Methylene blue (I have some old Meth. blue from YEARS ago, but it seems like you recommend fresh Meth. blue) and Erythro. I will at least give them a bath this evening and continue treating the tank with Paraguard. If I understand your article correctly, these baths are to be performed on a daily basis, right?

Thanks in advance.

Nicole

[Carl]

One thought is more than 1 breeder net, each with lots of floating plastic plants or similar to make it very dense so as to lower the incidence of aggression, but still allow for easy baths.

For a hospital tank, this is best when it uses an established filter, otherwise spikes in ammonia can defeat the purpose (although the use of Prime can control ammonia on a temporary basis)

As for baths, twice per day would be my suggestion; these would include, Methylene Blue, Salt, & Erythromycin

Carl

[aquaglory]

OK. Thanks Carl.

I will try the baths, as I do not have an established hospital tank. The dosing with the Erythro. may be a bit tricky at just a gallon volume, but at least the medicine comes in a powder form. At double dose, it would be one pack per 5 gallons, thus one fifth of that per gallon. I will try to measure how much is in a packet.

I only have one breeder net handy. I have another livebearer plastic breeder, but I wonder how good the circulation is through that (definitely not as good as with the cloth one). Should I release the Cardinals in the bath tank or just still keep them in the net while they are bathing? I'm just wondering if the net/ plastic breeder slow down the access of the medication to the fish.

I took a careful look at all the finned denizens of the tank, today, and I think it's likely that I will treat all of them. There are only two of them that don't seem to have either Ich and/or FNT Disease. BTW, is it normal to find new Ich spots on the fish during treatment? Today is day 5 of Paraguard. One of the Cardinals had at least five spots of Ich on him-- still not flashing and still eating.

I would have wanted to treat the fish with the baths starting tonight, but it's getting late and I have to take care of my daughter. I will treat starting tomorrow morning. I had to clean and disinfect the 3 gallon container first, which is why it got too late for me to start the baths...

Nicole

[parker002]

Yes, it's common to find new "spots" while treating for ich. Ich is caused by a protozoan that goes through multiple life phases - some of the phases are actually immune to the treatment so it doesn't kill them right away. You need to treat for about 2 weeks to completely rid yourself of it.

[parker002]

By the way, I can't speak to its effectiveness vs. FNT disease, but I strongly recommend you read this article by Carl if you plan on keeping shrimp.

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication4.html

I have had really good luck with the Kordon Herbal Ich Attack - it combats ich, it's safe for shrimp, and it also has some effect on secondary infections...

[aquaglory]

Hi parker002.

I'm not surprised about the additional Ich lesions-- just wanted to confirm my suspicions.

As for the shrimp, I had a separate introduction of Ich along with some Otocinclus into a 5 gallon tank at about the same time as the Ich outbreak in my 36 gallon. I had 3 yellow shrimp in there when I started treating with Paraguard. I saw at least one of them as recently as yesterday evening (day 4 of treatment). The shrimp that I have tend to come out only after the lights go off because of a bully male betta that I have in there, too, so I cannot confirm if the other two are still alive. (Yes, I know, not the best tank mates-- long story). Anyway, the point is that the Paraguard does not seem to be affecting the shrimp. If anything, the one shrimp I did see seemed to be acting better than it had recently. (I used to have 50-60 shrimp until a mishap in water condition crashed the tank, leaving the 3 survivors, so I have come to learn distress behaviors of the shrimp. ).


Well I have a bit of an UPDATE/ surprising apparent turn of events:
I was not able to get to the bath this morning because I was running late, so no treatment for the supposed FNT Disease has been initiated.
Just a few minutes ago, I was scrutinizing my Cardinals for signs of FNT Disease. To my surprise, I don't think I see any, or if I do, it is improving-- making me wonder if the lighting was not just playing tricks on me. I think the one female that appeared to have more than one patch might instead have some damaged scales from a male picking on her or maybe during the netting process in the store-- she might be the one that, during the attempted netting, accidentally was sucked up agains the filter intake until she was dislodged by the net. She is looking better and is the most voracious eater of all of the Cardinals.

The only Cardinals I see with anything on them have 1 to 3 spots of Ich, nothing more.

I'm going to hold off on the Erytho/Methylene blue baths. Either I was wrong in my diagnosis, or the fish are getting better on their own. I don't want to needlessly stress them with the baths, if I don't have to. Sometimes in medicine, observation is the better route!

Every day, the Cardinals seem to be displaying greater and greater appetites, which goes against them becoming more sick-- at least in my personal experience with fish, in general. Otherwise, I did note one of the Cardinals flashing, which I think is from the Ich, even though he has no lesions of any kind on him.

[parker002]

One thing I would say anecdotally...

I have several glo-lite and black neon tetras as well as one true neon tetra. When they're stressed and/or sick, they lose their color. The true neon actually loses color at night when the lights are off.

At first glance, it appears there is some sort of film on him but in reality, it's just colorless tissue. After 2 or 3 minutes under the lights, he regains full color.

[Carl]

Sept 20, 2010 15:00:15 GMT -5 parker002 said:

One thing I would say anecdotally...

I have several glo-lite and black neon tetras as well as one true neon tetra. When they're stressed and/or sick, they lose their color. The true neon actually loses color at night when the lights are off.

At first glance, it appears there is some sort of film on him but in reality, it's just colorless tissue. After 2 or 3 minutes under the lights, he regains full color.

Lighting can definitely "play tricks" IMO, both with fish appearing sick (that are not) or our own eyes when lighting is of poor quality or has a lot of reflection.

BTW, I am glad to read it may not be FNT disease after all.

On a side note, even if it were FNT disease, this is not the death sentence that True Neon Tetra Disease often is.

Carl

[aquaglory]

Well, I'm sorry to say that I'm pretty sure it is not lighting. On Monday (2 days ago) I planted a whole bunch of new plants in the aquarium, thus stirring up the substrate. The next day (yesterday), I thought I saw those lesions again. Today, it's confirmed.

What I'm puzzled about is that the Cardinals are acting normally (and continuing to pick on each other/ alternating with nice schooling from time to time) and eating voraciously (even better than before). They eat up the Spirulina like no tomorrow and continue to snack/ dine on the detritus worms and microcrustaceans (I'm guessing cyclops by the way they swim). How quickly does Columnaris affect fish? Can the fish fight off the Columnaris?

I never started the baths, partly because of something you wrote in your info, Carl (that Erythro is not the best med to treat Columnaris-- at least that's what I understood). The other thing I was considering is to just add KanaPlex to the tank, to minimize stress on the fish (all of them are affected to some degree or another). Would it be OK to add KanaPlex while I treat with Paraguard? I'm starting the second week of treatment with Paraguard-- still see some Ich spots, but nothing major.

I'm pretty sure my tank is now cycled. I have not done any water changes or added any bacterial supplements since at least 5 days, now (maybe 7) and my ammonia is 0, nitrite 0, and nitrates are less than 5ppm since adding the new plants.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Nicole

[Carl]

Are you sure of Columnaris?

Columnaris is a disease of opportunity (quite common when fish are stressed for one reason or another) Aeromonas is also a disease of opportunity, however being an anaerobic bacteria it is more common when tank conditions are poor or with a lot of decomposition.

If the fish are strong and tank conditions are optimum (including Redox), Columnaris can be relatively easy to treat..
However if the stressors are still present, the fish are weak or injured and the tank parameters are not optimum, treatment can be difficult or impossible.

Adding Salt to the water and lowering temperature (the opposite for as per water temps) can greatly help, so can ample mineral cations.

Kanaplex is generally safe for in tank treatment and I have safely combined this with ParaGuard

Carl

[aquaglory]

Hi Carl.

No, I'm not sure of Columnaris, as this is a disease I have never dealt with before. It does seem to fit many descriptions of Columnaris, though. The white patches tend to be vertically oriented with some of the fish having saddle-like patches on their back. It wasn't really clear, but at least at one point, I got the impression that the lips of one of the Cardinals was affected (though that seemed to resolve). The general coloration of the my Cardinals is very strong, though (i.e. vibrant). My tank is now generally pretty clean, I think-- I have to hunt to find any decaying leaves at all. The major additions of plants and rearrangement of some of the previously existing ones probably stressed the fish at least to some extent. I've read that the fish use the plants as their bearings, so can get stressed if the plants are moved around.

I have some salt in the water, already. I thought of adding more, but am just a bit concerned about harming the plants. For the moment, I'm at below 1tsp per 5 gallons.

They didn't have Kanaplex available at my LFS tonight, so I will get some tomorrow (they told me they were expecting more tomorrow.)


A little update on the Paraguard, BTW: Not only are my yellow Neocaridina shrimp hanging in there with the Paraguard treatment, today I noticed that one of them is now berried (with eggs)! I saw two shrimp last night and tonight. The shrimp also tend to hide more when they carry eggs in my tank (thanks to the resident bully-- i.e. the male betta, Moonglow). More and more I'm getting the impression that the shrimp actually seem to be acting better since I starting treating with the Paraguard. I've also noticed a rebound in the number of Daphnea in the 5 gallon since starting the treatment.

Nicole

[Carl]

This does describe Columnaris quite well, as well your tank history (including good current parameters) is a history that Columnaris fits with.

I would increase salt to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.

What is your KH & GH?

I would also consider a UV Sterilizer for future prevention

Finally, I have a list of medications/treatments that I recommend having "on hand" for emergencies in this article:
Aquarium Disease Prevention; A Healthy Tank


Regards;
Carl

[aquaglory]

Thanks Carl.

I wil gradually increase the salt. Since, at this point, I'm not sure exactly how much salt I have, I will try to slightly undershoot 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Incidentally, way in the past (about 25 years ago) I kept my Cardinal tetras in 1 teaspoon per gallon of non-iodized salt from the store and they never got sick until I got rid of them (when I went to college). So I do believe in salt helping keep them healthy.

I'm not sure about the KH and GH. I haven't tested them in a while, but last time, the GH was well over 300. The KH, I will try to check today (the only thing I have to test is a Tetra test kit...).

Oh, BTW, Carl, you may want to make a note somewhere in your information that the MEDICATED Wonder Shells cannot be used with invertebrates because it contains copper.

Thanks for all your help. I will try to keep you posted.

Nicole

[Carl]

Increasing salt slowly is generally the best way to go; I might also add that a University study with catfish (which are generally quite sensitive to salt) showed a higher tolerance for high short term salt levels than one might expect.

Oh, BTW, Carl, you may want to make a note somewhere in your information that the MEDICATED Wonder Shells cannot be used with invertebrates because it contains copper.

The web page selling Wonder Shells (under Medicated that is) notes that these have copper, but a low level that is safe for some hardy invertebrates such as many snails.

From the web page:
"• Generally safe for use with snails and hardy plants (as copper levels are generally below .05 to .10 ppm), however I do not recommend their use with more sensitive invertebrates or long term use with plants."

Medicated Wonder shells work as a mild cocktail of many ingredients at low amounts that when combined (along with the improved electrolyte) work when at the levels of these ingredients by themselves they would not.
That even said, I do not want to promote Medicated Wonder Shells as a cure all or even the strongest treatment for a given disease that they are effective for (although they are very effective for Velvet); the main purpose is for mild infections, preventative, follow up, or when the aquarist is not sure what the problem is.

Carl

[aquaglory]

Hi Carl.

Regarding the Medicated Wonder Shells, I was particularly thinking about those of us who keep shrimp. Particularly, the Neocaridina shrimp, such as the Red Cherry Shrimp or the Yellow Shrimp, would not tolerate it.

Going back to the Columnaris: I went to the LFS today, but it's unclear whether they got the shipment of Kanaplex. Apparently, they got an unusually large shipment today, and as of tonight, much of it was still in crates.... In the meantime, I added 4 tablespoons of salt to my tank throughout the day. It was rather amusing, because the Cardinals seem to like to play in the crystals or saline water that was hitting the tank initially. I'm not sure if it's just an impression, but late tonight, the lesions seemed better-- perhaps wishful thinking...

Nicole

[aquaglory]

A little update:

I was able to get the Kanaplex yesterday and dosed it last night. The lesions are now much more difficult to see. The Ich, however, is still not getting better. I see up to 5 or 6 spots on the worst affected fish. I was planning on using Paraguard for 2 weeks, but I'm thinking I may have to use it longer. The tank temp is 82F (perhaps not high enough). I also tested the water parameters (forgot to check the GH and KH, again) and the pH had crept up in both this tank and my 5 gallon (very high in the 5 gallon). I'm thinking that it's probably from the Paraguard, since I have not added anything else to these tanks than sodium, magnesium, and calcium. The pH in my 36 gallon rose to about 7.2 and to 7.6 (or above) in the 5 gallon. (I was wondering why my betta was looking a bit lethargic!)

I did a tiny water change yesterday before adding the Kanaplex, adjusting the pH back down a bit, and everyone in the tank looks the better for it. I realize that Carl advocates not chasing the pH, but at the same time, if the fish look stressed because the pH is going outside of their comfort range, I would think that something needs to be adjusted back. Anyway, my betta looks much more lively, albeit not a 100%, yet.

My other parameters in the 36 gallon are: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and nitrate near 0 (the plants have certainly helped). I'm OK with the plants not growing super fast in the tank because the nitrates are not higher. My 5 gallon has everything at 0, too. (These findings were before the water change).

Nicole

[Carl]

AquaGlory;

A pH of 7.4-7.6 (assuming it did not suddenly spike to this level) should not cause any difficulty with your Betta. although this is not the ideal pH, it is not awful, in fact I know a breeder of Discus (which come from lower pH waters) that breeds his discus in a pH of 7.5.
The lethargy is likely disease caused, sudden pH caused, or even poor osmotic regulation caused; with his "perking up" after a water change indicating poor osmotic balance IMO.

My experience with ParaGuard (as well as my sister service company's) is that ParaGuard generally works within just a few treatments unless there are other issues (such as absorption by carbon, mulm, poly pads, etc.)
This also might explain why your shrimp are doing well during the treatment with ParaGuard, as I have observed some shrimp to stress or even die when treated (for Shrimp, I agree with what Parker noted earlier and that is the use of Kordon Herbal Ich Treatment is best, although not as effective on the Ich)

You may need to treat with a higher dose, also consider that Malachite Green is more effective when the pH is higher (as well as Calcium and other minerals).

For controlling pH, the use of both Alkaline and Acid Buffer or the use of Alkaline buffers along with peat, Almond leaves, driftwood, etc. can aid in a stable pH.
If your tap is high in pH, blending Reverse Osmosis water during water changes can help in finding a better balance

Good Luck with your continuing treatment

Carl