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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 12:59:24 GMT -5
Tank Size: 28 gallons Age of the tank: 1.5 years pH: 8.74 Ammonia: 0 NitrAtes: 5-10 nitrites: 0 GH/KH: last time i checked the gh it was high around 280 Temperature: roughtly 72-78 depending on if my heat in my room kicks on or not (electric radiator) Fish: affected(1x socolofi)
unaffected(2x socolofi, 1x yellow lab) Symptoms: shimmies, ich, and open sore's, columnarius not mouth but body.
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 13:02:26 GMT -5
i will be using a 1 gallon water jug with the top cut off for the bath. my concern is how much salt i can use to kill all the bad stuff and still not kill my fish?
so just under 1 gallon or i can even just do it at 1/2 gallon of tank water from the injured fish's tank. and how much salt would i need to add in teaspoons/cups for 1 gallon or for 1/2 gallon of water?
also would it be alright to add melafix to the bath or should i just continue the treatment im already doing on the main tank?
any other good products that arent too pricey that are just amazing to have on hand for similar infections that i may be able to go out and by before the bath?
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Post by Carl on Dec 10, 2009 13:46:58 GMT -5
1 teaspoon for 1 gallon (pre dissolved is best) or 1/2 teaspoon for 1/2 gallon of bath water. Weak medications such as Melafix such are not all that effective added to a bath, in particular with the symptoms your fish are displaying. Pimafix is the better choice is Columnaris is actually present since Melafix has almost no effectiveness for gram negative infections such as Columnaris. A better choice (besides the salt and Methylene blue) would be Triple Sulfa or Kanaplex. See this article for MUCH more about baths (including dosages): Aquarium Answers; Fish BathsSee this article for the best use of Melafix: Aquarium Medications 4; MelafixAs for the best medications/treatments to have on hand, please see this article for a list (as well following ALL points in this article are extremely important to prevent infections): A Healthy Aquarium; Disease PreventionCarl
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 16:44:57 GMT -5
thanks carl. i watched your video on the bath. and i read that the salt does the trick with killing most of the pathogens. as for the symptoms all i can say is hes tore up bad must have been in a scuffle and well that means stress and ideal situation for him to come down with a number of different things that are all frequently found in most aquariums just in the water column itself weather the fish gets them or not is mainly due to if they can fight it off.
what i do notice if i can get a picture of him in the next few hours is that he has little balence control. ripped fins. open wounds below the top fin. and a white patch where im sure its just scales being raised up or an abrasion from a scuffle. and not on the fins or tail but on the body it looks like ich to me just a tiny white dot maybe 2 or 3 of them but im really only seeing 1 at a time anyway he doesnt hold still too long.
as for the rest of my fish they all vibrate frequently at first i thaught it was happy now im thinking shimmies. but my water quality is all good and my changes are all frequent.
im only seeing infections come down on the weakest in the pecking order. so i really dont see this problem being resolved unless i can clean the main tank completely of all pathogenic potential diseases that only come down on weak or succeptable fish due to high stress.
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Post by Carl on Dec 10, 2009 17:36:41 GMT -5
You might consider Aquarisol or similar copper treatments, these are good for Shimmies and mild-moderate ich infestations Or better, try a Medicated Wonder Shell as these have copper and important mineral cations that help with shimmies and osmotic function Carl
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 19:14:11 GMT -5
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 19:57:59 GMT -5
also a big red flag on the columnaris was the only description i could gather from all the sites i looked at for symptoms of it with out taking a sample under microscope were loss of apetite (obviously from picture he looks a bit skimpy) and white patch around the gills or on body with thick mucus covering. (he doesnt have that but he does have that abrasion i was talking about that looks white weather the coloring or even the scales themselves got scratched or rubbed off either on the rocks or from a scuffle(hes the weakest in pecking order) and the affected area im concerned about is about 1 cm in leanght from about the 3rd bar from the tail through to the next 5-6 bars on his right side. in the pictures youll see it from numerous angles.
the rest of them as you see in pictures are all well fed and brilliant in color and stress free (i believe the dominance is now with my yellow lab leaving the socolofi in there pecking order to relieve all stress from the tank in the pecking order so the weakest member is logicialy the most stressed. i had another that just passed from similar situation but it was more in the mouth then in the body.
if i had methylin blue i would be using it in my baths aswell. but as for the moment all i can do is isolate the affected fish in a breeder box and give it daily salt baths.
i was over dosing the salt according to carls ratio but now im just using the ratio he stated.
i must have gatherd or did the wrong math from a less detail oriented site. cuz i was using 3 teaspoons per gallon. for a 5 minute bath duration and my fish have all survived these baths but were lathergic during the bath.
this bath seemed to have no adverse affects or side affects so im gathering it was the best advise i have been given on the baths.
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 20:04:21 GMT -5
as for treatment all i can do is continue the daily baths until i can get a positive id on a specific medication that will cure my whole tank with out killing my biological bacteria.
with in the next weekend i will be purchasing a strew of medications such as the most crucial of the moment the methylene blue. and jungle cure. and more melafix also this time around i will use my melafix treatments with pimafix aswell. i will need more advise or recomendations on how to use these 2 seperate products together for there maximum potential as safe cure alls for most fish diseases.
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Post by Carl on Dec 10, 2009 20:50:34 GMT -5
Although a true positive identification of Columnaris can only be made via a stain & microscope, this appears to be a rather "classic case" of columnaris You definitely need the treat Methylene Blue directly on this as well. Diluted Potassium Permanganate or Hydrogen Peroxide can also be applied to the area of infection. Increasing salt in the tank water and lowering temperatures (to 74 F) can also help See: ColumnarisYou keep noting Melafix, did you read the earlier article I suggested to read? Melafix is agood product as first aid, but is almost totally useless for gram negative fish infections which the majority of infections are, including Columnaris. I am also not sure what product "Jungle Cure" is, as I am familiar with the Jungle line, but not this product or whether it has the right ingredients to give your fish a fighting chance against a serious Columnaris infection, which this is. It seems the articles you read may have given you some strange cure suggestions other than salt. Please be aware that Columnaris is a disease that that there is a lot misinformation about (see: Aquarium Forum/Blog Hall of Shame #6; Columnaris Disease) Kanamycin, Nitrofurazone, Triple sulfa are more effective treatments along with baths that include either MB, Potassium Permanganate, or Hydrogen Peroxide
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 0:24:02 GMT -5
i do have hydrogen peroxide on hand. how much would i add to a 1/2 gallon bath?
from your article it wouldbe the standard house hould at 3%. and ive been doing 1/2 gallon baths.
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 0:41:52 GMT -5
my list of products to pick up at the store.
methylene blue
pimafix
melafix
wondershells
sponge filters (after i treat tank i want to add them)
ethromycin
potasium permagnite
any others for anything else that may pop up under stress?
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 0:45:25 GMT -5
and carl i have read all your articles especialy the ones you mention in my posts and the ones i catch on recent posts that you have updated.
its the reason why im more curious and need more advise on how to use it. when to use it. and how i can add pimafix to the dosages aswell. since you have stated that it is useless for this instance i may stop the dosage after my next water change until i can understand the pimafix and melafix combination and when and how to properly medicate the whole tank with both.
my main use for it is usualy on a schedule about once a month maybe once every 2 months just to help repair fins from the random scuffles. its never serious when it is serious like in this instance i know its not just from a scuffle or if it is it was a serious one. but the behavior of all my fish is pretty passive and if there is a scuffle its over dominance. and the pecking order itself is pretty much just hey run away you dont wanna turn around and the weaker one runs off and doesnt get chased.
and all the fish are semi juveniles so i dont think any of them feels that they are strong enough to try to kill anyone off there all around the same size aswell the lab is the largest and i may just have to remove him if hes the culprit in all this.
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 0:50:46 GMT -5
i should have knocked on wood before getting into the cichlid hobby but in my prior tanks ive never had any diseases exept ich which i never had to medicate just change temperature and more frequent water changes and it cleared itself up on its own and fish recovered with out knowing they even had it. these were pleco's neon's and a strew of random tetra's.
in my oscar tank which was the longest established tank in my experience lasted 8 years and only had 1 ich infection.
so im doing my best trying to disect these issues and what or if there is anything i can do to change my habbits to prevent them but if anything im doing one of the things you mentioned may cause these issues is over care.
the only thing i can rule is different from prior experence is the tap water. im in another county with alot harder water.
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Post by Carl on Dec 11, 2009 10:28:50 GMT -5
my list of products to pick up at the store. methylene blue pimafix melafix wondershells sponge filters (after i treat tank i want to add them) ethromycin potasium permagnite any others for anything else that may pop up under stress? Although Erythromycin is a very useful medication for diseases such as Streptococcus, it is totally useless for s true Columnaris infection; see the Columnaris Article (here is a quote): "• Sores, wounds, or infections that grow even while under treatment of gram positive medications such as Melafix or Erythromycin can be an indicator of a Columnaris infection as well. Unfortunately Maracyn (which is Erythromycin) is incorrectly prescribed to treat Columnaris by many pet stores and even some misinformed websites that do not know that Columnaris is gram negative while Erythromycin is a gram positive antibiotic"Consider the medications recommended in the Columnaris article or the Disease prevention article: *Kanamycin *Nitrofurazone *Triple Sulfa I prefer using Hydrogen Peroxide as a straight swab as per the Columnaris article, however it can be used a bath (Hydrogen Peroxide only) at a rate of 10 teaspoons 3% Hydrogen Peroxide per liter (about 35 teaspoons per gallon) See this article for much more about the use of Hydrogen Peroxide: AQuarium Medications 3; Hydrogen PeroxideAs noted in the Columnaris article, stress is the major factor in an outbreak of Columnaris in an otherwise healthy tank, this is especially common among Mbuna and similar cichlids when kept in tanks with little room to hide from the dominant fish. Keep in mind that there is a difference between hard water and available mineral cations: Aquarium Chemistry; Mineral Cations, ionsCarl
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 14:44:03 GMT -5
thank you so much carl. he is already starting to show improvement and i upped the level of salt in the big tank and am planning on doing 2 water changes today one right after im done posting this and another either tonight or early tomorrow so i can add more salt.
as for the medications im not planning on buying just the medications for columnaris. im planning ahead and buying all medications that will prevent/treat diseases that only start up due to high stress. (with my luck ill go get the columnaris treatments, and the fish will recover before i use the medications or pass during the medications. and my other fish will come down with something completely different and ill have all this columnaris medication and nothing to treat the rest of my fish)
so im for sure getting the MB and PP and melafix and pimafix.
anything else i get i will need more information on its uses and if it affects my bio filter.
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Post by Carl on Dec 11, 2009 16:22:31 GMT -5
anything else i get i will need more information on its uses and if it affects my bio filter. Your welcome! The "Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle" article has a section dealing with medications and the nitrogen cycle. Generally it is the stronger gram positive medications to be the most concerned with (such as Erythromycin) Aslo see: Aquarium Medications 2Carl
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 12, 2009 0:11:00 GMT -5
so i wasnt able to track down any methylene blue. so i will most likely have to order it online from you carl around christmas time after i get paid. probably along with other useful supplies i cant find at stores either. such as sponge filters and wondershells.
i got a test kit finally so i have my water paremeters all except gh and kh
0 nitrite 0 nitrate 0 ammonia 8.3 ph
so like i said previously my water is all ideal. so there must be something in the water column thats attacking the weakest fish in my tank and its really frustrating me.
i did find a few questionable products that i considerd picking up that were similar in the ones recomended.
the first i will ask about is the jungle labs tank buddies? has anyone used them or familiar with them or can credit that they willl actually work?
i considerd picking up the ich version and the fungus version and the parasite version they claimed it would not hurt my biological establishment in my tank.
the 2nd product i was questioning since i could not find methylene blue is there an alternative product that will help incese the mucus slime coat. and i found stress zyme and stress coat i believe API was the brand name. will they be useful?
and the 3rd product that struck my attention was mardel's biospheres stress theropy solution has anyone used this and what can i expect out of this product?
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Post by jonv on Dec 12, 2009 5:45:16 GMT -5
I came on this thread just looking over stuff, checking in every now and then. I think there is something important for you to consider in your treatments. Treating the sick fish clearly something you want to do and getting it done. As with the experiences over the years, and learning not too long ago having a columnaris outbreak in my adult breeding tank, Carl helped me figure out that basically it's impossible to eliminate this pathogen completely.
Being opportunistic by nature, an African cichlid tank of your size, 28 gallons is likely going to be a frequent problem due to stress. I was scanning over the given information and curious, about the sex ratio. I didn't see any male/female ratio listed and I have a feeling this is likely the major cause. I have no doubts to tank maintenance, but I feel you probably have a case here where you have all males in your tank, and even with a dominant male, you will have constant stress in a tank that size, which will make other sub dominants more prone even with your outstanding water changes and cleaning. I would reccomend myself, either getting a 100% sexing done on your stock, or move to a larger tank to allow more space and lessen the stress impact.
Even with a total rock covered set up too, what eventually will happen, should my thought be right, all males, the one dominant will be the active one out and around, and the sub doms, would be forced into seclusion to avoid the stress which wouldn't be ideal too. If I may offer something else here. Looking at the pics, I would, and not sure the right words to say here, question maybe? the seller of those fish to you. I am quite convinced and pointed this out to Carl on the phone, the listing of the stock as Soccoloffi is not accurate. If someone sold that to you listing them as that, I would probably ask to have a refund if I were in your place. Soccoloffi have a total pale blue body and no stripes. The presence of the stripes on the body make me feel certain the species listed is not that. It does appear to be another group of Pseudotroph, likely a demasoni, or possibly Elongatus.
I would reccomend replacing them if you can, and getting known or proven breeding group, where you can certainly say you have just 1 male in that tank and everything else is female. Females will get some stress but it will be from courtship, not dominance aggression, as well as the decor should allow for females to take some cover from a courting male. I think this would be your best solution, after of course treating the sick fish you have now. If I can dig up some images on Soccoloffi to help you see where I came to the conclusion on the species, I will post that later. Good luck.
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Post by Carl on Dec 12, 2009 11:18:31 GMT -5
so i wasnt able to track down any methylene blue. so i will most likely have to order it online from you carl around christmas time after i get paid. probably along with other useful supplies i cant find at stores either. such as sponge filters and wondershells. i got a test kit finally so i have my water paremeters all except gh and kh 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 0 ammonia 8.3 ph so like i said previously my water is all ideal. so there must be something in the water column thats attacking the weakest fish in my tank and its really frustrating me. Jon pointed out one of the most important factors in Columnaris outbreaks, and as well this point is made a few times in the Columnaris article (I am in the process of updating this article to make this points stand out even more as well as add even more information as to prevention) You should get a GH/KH test as well, especially with rift lake cichlids. Jungle makes some good products, although in this case it will not work here and SeaChem' ParaGuard is superior for Ich (the medicated Wonder shells are good for fungus/saprolegnia) These are not related products at all, Stress Zyme is an aid to aquarium cycling (not a very good one at that), and Stress Coat is a water conditioner that adds a slime coat (this is a good product, but will not take the place of Methylene Blue which a mild Redox tester and oxidizer while Stress Coat is a reducer) See: Aquarium Medications 3; Methylene BlueAquarium Answers; Water ConditionersI have used these, unfortunately with so-so results. I am not a big fan of Mardel, especially since they were bought out by a 3rd rate pet supply company; Sergeants. Carl
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Post by corycatwoman on Dec 12, 2009 12:58:47 GMT -5
thanks jonv. i may just pack up my african cichlid bags until i can afford a 45 or 55. cuz i lost him over night.
he was looking so much better to. i think it was the hydrogen peroxide swab i did before laying down.
anyway as for them maybe possibly not being socolofi. it is a very high possibility but im sure that they are atleast partialy socolofi maybe a hybrid of some sort.
i had to special order these guys an hour away from me and drive to get them a week later. and when they are dominant they really do look the way they are sposed to but when there subdominant they show bars. i have read that socolofi come in many varies of color phorms and do change there bars frequently almost as much as subdominant bumblee's do but then again that could just be some sight blowing steam up my yanker.
as for the sex ratio all the fish i have are too small to determine sex other then by observations and they all apear to have male personalities to me.
so your probably 100 percent correct on the cause to this issue. but as to fixing it im stuck until i can have a proffesional vent each one and even at that there only 3 inches long and 1/2 inch tall so im not sure if its even possible yet.
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