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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 7, 2009 15:57:22 GMT -5
Tank Size: 40 Gallon Breeder Age of the tank: 2 years pH: idk Ammonia: idk NitrAtes: idk nitrites: idk GH/KH: idk Temperature: 72F Fish in your tanks: no Fish: I used to own: Female Betta Siamese Shark 15 Tetra 10 Sunrise guppies 15 blue guppies
Any fish recommendations would be awesome btw.
Question/Problem: First off let me list what i own. -40 gallon Breeding style Tank -Marineland Penguin 200 Filter -Sponge Filter from American Aquarium (Hydro Sponge III) -It is using my Top Fin XP-125 air pump, the ViaAqua 480 that came with the sponge was to loud. -Stealth Heater (120v) -Normal Gravel, plastic plants -Lighting that came with the tank
i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm198/NathanDP2007/Fish%20Tanks/2008.jpg
I used to have fish in the tank, as seen in the picture. I have had 15 guppies, which they died off not sure as to why. I then had around 15 tetra which are hearty, but eventually got something that infected them, giving them bulged eyes, eventually they all died off. My siamese shark was awesome and lasted the longest, but died off, and i had a female betta that died off. So all in all, pretty much lots of failure with my tank. Im sure you will ask "well what do you do" so il tell you: Im fairly certain i would change out 20% of the water once every 2 weeks. Done so by cleaning the gravel. I would put in the correct amount of tap declorinator. With the tetras i would put in salt to the water before i added it to the tank. I dont feed them overly to much. Just as much as they eat (a few pinches). (I would feed them some Spirulina 20, Top Fin Tropical Flakes). When they got sick i would put in correct dose of MELAFIX or PIMAFIX. (Btw i buy my fish typically from Petsmart, there arent any (that i know of) great shops around my area. I feel like i got beyond what a beginner Aquarium enthusiast does, yet still all my fish die, it wastes money and makes me pissed. I have a huge tank, i want there to be healthy fish in there that look beautiful. When starting in this hobby i felt i was leaned toward the fact that freshwater isnt hard at all, and that the bigger the tank, the more stable your tank should be. So i bought a 40 gal and my fish die off just as fast as if it was 10 gallons. Do i really have to know all the science and need to do this hobby hardcore like im planning on selling the fish myself? Any help and adjustment to how i use my tank would be nice.
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Post by Carl on Dec 7, 2009 16:40:44 GMT -5
You likely got some pathogen in the tank, possibly form the fish purchased. Your set up looks good, with a Sponge filter and HOB filter being a simple but effective combination (BTW, I prefer the simplicity of a air pump over a power head to power a sponge filter, although usually a power head is not loud unless the impeller is not installed correctly or is defective as I have used literally 100s of sponge filter/power head combinations) Questions: *Did you maintain GH and KH as well so as to keep a stable pH and just as important, positive mineral ions? *Did your ammonia/nitrites stay low? If you re-start your aquarium, make sure to bleach it with a 1/20 water/bleach combination. Another important note since you had so many problems, and that is I would strongly recommend the use of UV Sterilizer. Although this cannot help with fish that are already sick or "damaged" from ammonia poisoning prior to your purchase, it certainly can help control the spread of pathogens and improve Redox (correct mineralization helps for Redox as well) The most important point I can make is to follow ALL points in the Aquarium Disease Prevention article, as I conducted some of my largest tests over a decade that showed that as each point is taken away from this list, your chances of success go down, (sometimes considerably) Aquarium Disease Prevention, Aquarium Health proceduresCarl
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 7, 2009 16:50:24 GMT -5
-Well first off, the power head was loud cause it was pointed the width of the tank, so the jet was shooting against the glass. I forget if i tried to turn it towards the length of the tank. -I tried to keep track of where my levels were at, but i had/used Mardel Master Test kit, which measures pH, hardness, alkanlinity, nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia. You tell me if thats enough to test water. And as for "changing" the waters levels, idk how or what to use. -Now when bleaching it, are you assuming my tank is empty? cause my tank has been running water but just without fish for the past year. Shouldnt all diseases or pathogens be dead by now? -What UV sterilizer would you recommend be best for my setup?
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Post by Carl on Dec 7, 2009 17:03:14 GMT -5
A Terminator 9 Watt or 5 Watt would work well for this tank *Leaving a tank empty is no guarantee that a tank will be pathogen free. *Do you recall all your water parameters? *Addition of mineral cations is also important * I highly suggest finding another source for your fish as well Please read all the steps in the a earlier noted Aquarium Disease prevention article as they are proven steps (especially step 5 & 9). I do not understand this question, but if you are asking how best to change water, please see this article: Aquarium CleaningCarl
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 7, 2009 17:10:24 GMT -5
*So if it isnt a guarantee, you recommend i drain all the water out, then Bleach the rocks and plants and gravel? *Yeah i wrote them down, heres a average one: Nitrate-0 Nitrite-0 PPM Hardness-120 PPM Buff-80 pH-6.8
*Where can i get the mineral cations ? *Hmm i really have no clue if there are any small stores around. Iv asked and found one but it was bad.
By changing water levels, i mean how do you adjust when your levels like "pH and Nitrate" are off, how do i change or adjust those things?
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Post by babygeige on Dec 7, 2009 19:00:23 GMT -5
Nitrate is best managed by water changes. It's ok to have a low amount of nitrate, but once you get up to about 20, I'd increase water changes for a while. 0-10 is ok if you have plastic plants.
I don't get too fussed about pH. The easiest thing to do is figure out what your water's pH and hardness is and buy fish that are suited to it. My water's pH is about 7.6-7.8 and it's on the hard side, so I stay away from fish that need to have soft water with low pH. Most fish aren't too picky about it, but you don't want to make to too hard on them.
And remember, water changes are your best friend. It's almost impossible to do too many of them!!
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Post by Carl on Dec 7, 2009 19:01:35 GMT -5
I would most definitely bleach the aquarium and start over. pH is controlled by KH, so adding buffers such as SeaChem Buffer or even Baking soda to raise KH and maintain a stable pH (as noted by babygeige). See Aquarium Chemistry, GH, KH, pH, Mineral CationsNitrates is much more complex, however water changes are good start, as well products such as Purigen can help Please see this article for MUCH more in depth information, as it is important understand all aspects of what contributes to high nitrates: Aquarium Answers; NitratesPlease pardon me if I come off as rude, but it appears you are not reading the articles I am sending you as you are asking questions that are answered in detail in these articles (& the links there in) such mineral cations. Please read the articles and the referenced links and then ask back up questions, as if you never have a complete understanding of aquarium keeping you likely repeat these problems. I am sorry to come off as rude, (not my intention), but I have seen this type of problem many times before where advice is only followed in part and then the person asking the question asks what went wrong. Believe me I have spent literally 1,000s and 1,100s of hours with these article to provide as much accurate/information as possible. Carl
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 7, 2009 20:33:30 GMT -5
Oh well i plan on reading them, but and also hopefully not coming off as rude, but the articles are hard to read because they are so complex. I have to really sit down and read hard cause it gets into strong detail of the science of the water and its levels. I ask on here cause sometimes on here you get the same good info, but in Middle School reading level form, instead of Harvard University form. I always kinda wished there was a post that said "If u want to own guppies..have ur levels here: *all chemistry stats listed" and heres how to get them higher *product/method* and heres how to get them lower *product/method* and feed them this *product* and change the water __ amount of times a month" and bam..u know how to fully take care of the fish. Having to learn that super detailed science is cool if i felt i was getting a grasp of it. But nitrates and nitries and GH this and pH that..they are just letters to me so its hard to get. Not that the articles arent great and work perfectly.
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Post by babygeige on Dec 7, 2009 22:36:52 GMT -5
A lot of the science can be confusing, but I think the most important thing (and I believe Carl would agree with me on this) is to keep your tank consistent. Chasing after a specific pH, GH or KH number with chemicals will usually cause more harm than good. Wonder shells are handy for helping with minerals and such. Consistent cleaning and water changes will help you keep things in order.
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 7, 2009 22:50:45 GMT -5
Thanks that makes a lot of sense and i hadnt thought about it like that. So how were my chemical numbers? when i listed off my pH and all those, were they within good zone for guppies / tetras?
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Post by fishfever on Dec 7, 2009 23:22:40 GMT -5
I wish there was a cookbook method of taking care of fish but it's just not that simple. Remember you are both a pet owner and personal vet for your fish! I'm really glad Carl includes the science to back up his findings because this hobby has too many false anecdotal claims and old wives tails with no supporting evidence, especially on the internet. You don't have to read every gory detail to get very useful info out of those articles. I've read the same article many times and usually get new info each time because I read more in depth in some areas that I wasn't needing the first time around. Your fish will thank you for being more informed as a fish hobbyist by living longer and healthier lives...
I also have livebearers and tetras in the same tank with tetras generally preferring somewhat more acidic, softer water and livebearers preferring more basic, harder water. So I kind of split the difference on the pH (tap is very soft and acidic, about 6.4) and use Malawi buffer to keep it in the 7.0 to 7.4 range. Your GH/KH seems like it might be enough for tetras but I think you want higher numbers for the livebearers... an excellent and cheap way to do this is to keep Wonder shells in your tank. I always have 2 medium sized ones in my 26g, one that is almost wasted and one that is almost new. As babygeige says, once you decide on a target pH (if different from your tap), keep it consistent (so if it's different from your tap use the right amount of buffer with each water change).
Although this is subjective, the general health of my fish over the long term has improved since I started using the UV sterilizer. I am using the 5W terminator in my 26g. I would recommend getting the kit form with the pump and tubes so there's nothing else to buy to get going with it. I was able to get mine hooked up and running in much less than an hour.
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Post by Carl on Dec 8, 2009 10:12:52 GMT -5
As babygeige noted, consistency (such as pH) is very important, and this includes your maintenance schedule. As fishfever noted, it is not really possible to hand out anecdotal one size fits all numbers/formulas. As to the articles, (again as fishfever noted) you may need to read them multiple times, however most have overviews that give more simple terms and then the article expands on the subjects. The freshwater basics article is actually rather basic/simple: Freshwater BasicsHowever to really be successful after unfortunate problems pop off understanding the subjects in depth is important, otherwise you will chase multiple anecdotal formulas that often have no basis in science (in part what is referred to in section #7 of Aquarium Disease Prevention) I will also add a little information as to why the articles have expanded to be more in depth: When I first posted these articles on the Internet (many had suggested this for years), I wrote them very basic with no supporting evidence to back up what I was stating (even though I had much evidence). I was attacked and flamed in many forums (which I later left most of these) since I often did not agree with what the "popular" opinion. So I have continued to research for better accuracy (which also requires me to read over and over as fishfever noted, since I also do not always grasp some of the scientific literature I reference, especially since I am "picture thinker", not an analytical thinker) Even then I still find many will argue or ignore the science behind the articles, in particular the Redox, Chemistry (GH/pH/KH/Calcium), UV Sterilization, Medications/Treatments, & Lighting to name a few that still deal with subjects that the aquarium industry is often years behind the science. Carl
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Post by Carl on Dec 8, 2009 10:29:02 GMT -5
I will also add a quote from my Aquarium Information/Background summary page (at bottom of the page): "In the 1980s I was mentored by an Endocrinologist (MD) whom was also an avid fish keeper (mostly marine). He helped me much understand the ins and outs of medications and one time gave me an in depth medical article that he though had useful information that could be applied to fish as well. Much of the information was not readily easy to understand for me, so I skipped over many sections and gleaned the points I wanted. Later I was making some points to the Dr. and he stopped me and said I was incorrect and if I had read the article in full, to which I replied, 'no'. He then said that there is no way I could understand this article without reading it in full and applying ALL the information contained there in".Carl
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 8, 2009 16:20:52 GMT -5
Well i can understand that (your point that you need science to not get attacked for your articles). The knowledge of just keeping my pH stable is one of the most important things really helps me. Cause in the past i have been worried about all my numbers, and would wonder how you can do anything about them all. Now its nicer to know "What is the average chemical levels of my tap water? what is the best fish for that?" and then buying those fish, and keeping my water consistent. Instead of buying fish and trying to adjust the water chemistry to match their needs. My plan as of right now is to bleach everything in my tank, except 1/5th of my gravel, so that along with my sponge filter will still have good bacteria in it to help the tank not be COMPLETELY brand new when i re-fill it. Then to clean the whole tank (glass). Then put it all back in, put in new water, and after (im guessing 2 weeks?) check my levels to see what i naturally have from tap. Get the Wondershells to give my water good minerals and such and then buy fish for my tank. Im guessing 10 fish (like tetras) will be ok to put in at the same time, considering i have such a large tank. How does that plan sound?
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Post by Carl on Dec 8, 2009 16:52:58 GMT -5
The plan sounds good for the most part, but I would still recommend a 100% bleaching due to past problems. True this will mean a total re-start, but the risk of problems is worth this hassles. Either way your bio filter is likely not in good shape anyway at this point. You can also boost your cycle with products such as SeaChem Stability, but despite claims, this product is more an "Aid" rather than a 100% cycling product, so patience will still need to be exercised. Aquarium Nitrogen CycleIf at all possible, try to find another source for your fish, even if online or similar online trading auctions. Carl
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 8, 2009 17:57:20 GMT -5
Oh ok, what do you mean my bio filter isnt in good shape? do you mean after a year of use , it should be replaced? (the sponge?) Oh ok il check out that seachem product. Do you have any website recommendations? I have used the Dr.Foster and Smith before for plants, and i know they have www.liveaquaria.com/ for fish, have you ever had experience or heard anything about them? As for bleaching 100%, i will do that. Considering i will be starting completely fresh, is needing around 6 weeks for the tank to cycle correct? I think i read that in one of your articles. So wait 5-6 weeks until putting fish in the tank?
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Post by Carl on Dec 8, 2009 18:36:16 GMT -5
Without the "food" supply from the fish, the nitrifying bacteria may have died off, which is what I meant as to the bio filter. I have not much feedback of late (previous from a few years back was mixed at best) from Dr. Fosters for fish, (I do have good feedback for Freshwater Aquarium Plants) Generally what I have seen is the specially places seem to do a better job, but this is just an opinion. 5 to 6 weeks to season a tank using the fish food method is about right, although the use of Stability can allow a few fish during this period See the cycling methods section of this article: Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle, Cycling MethodsCarl
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Post by fishfever on Dec 8, 2009 18:39:50 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm guessing what Carl means is that since you haven't had fish in your tank for a while (if I understand the thread correctly) the bacteria haven't had a food source for some time and they may be significantly depleted. Once you thoroughly clean your tank and filters with bleach solution you can start cycling the tank again (with or without fish). 6 weeks is about what I experienced for cycling my tanks.. I would recommend cycling without fish if you can wait and if you can get some starter material from a healthy cycled tank it should speed up the cycling process. Sorry I've never bought live fish through the mail but have had no luck trying to buy live food this way (i.e. daphnia).
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Post by nathanp2007 on Dec 8, 2009 19:19:11 GMT -5
Yeah that makes sense. Oh ok so the sponge filter too...good to know. Well this solves everything except the only thing left i am wondering is: Has anyone ever bought from that liveaquaria.com website? and has anyone ever bought fish from any website and if so, how was it and what was the website? Thanks
Something i just thought of, i might want to start up my 5 gallon hexagon tank again too, either to be a backup tank for medical reasons or to house a betta. My only thing is i have had 2 betta's, and they just NEVER ate, so they both died off. I mean i gave them FD-blood worms, i gave them all the highly recommended flake food, everything..and they would spit it out, and eventually died from id assume starving. Should i spend the 5 bucks and try again?
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Post by Carl on Dec 9, 2009 10:43:36 GMT -5
Yeah that makes sense. Oh ok so the sponge filter too...good to know. Well this solves everything except the only thing left i am wondering is: Has anyone ever bought from that liveaquaria.com website? and has anyone ever bought fish from any website and if so, how was it and what was the website? Thanks Maybe someone else here has, I only had some clients a few years back that bought from liveaquaria and were not all that happy, but in fairness to live aquaria, this was about 5 years ago and things can change. This is a good idea IMO Definitely try a different source for your Bettas, even if its Walmart, although better would be to maybe send a PM to Suzie Q and she can hook you up with an excl lent private source for a vastly more healthy Betta (the cost may be more, but the lower frustration would be worth it IMO). I have had Bettas and other fish that never ate well from day one, and often nothing helped as they were poor stock; changing stock solved the problem 90% of the time. Carl
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