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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2009 10:46:04 GMT -5
Here is a short answer (sorry as I am late leaving for a business trip to pick up inventory and the weather is bad); First I am glad you found this store. I think the Melafix/Pimafix combination is a good and safe alternative. I also have to agree to diagnosiing a sick fish, they need to be at deaths door, as a dead fish is immediately over come by other fungal, bacterial, etc. organisms making diagnosis difficult. If the disease happens to be Columnaris, the upping of temperature is not good for treatment (74 is better). High temps are good for Ich treatments, but not all bacterial infections or even damage from ammonia poisoning. Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 19, 2009 11:28:48 GMT -5
I think I'm going to go ahead and lower the temp. I also don't think anymore that this is ammonia poisoning, or at least that's not the sole cause. I lost an oto this morning. He was fine last night. He died about 15 minutes ago. He's only been in the tank a week, so unless it's a COMPLETE coincidence, whatever killed him did so QUICKLY. I'm bordering on panic here, it's so depressing. On a lighter note, #2 is STILL alive. He still appears to be hovering at death's door, but he's been doing so for almost 48 hours, so I guess there's hope.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 19, 2009 23:28:16 GMT -5
#2 is still hanging on by a thread. And I finally have a pathogen.
When I checked on him just now, I noticed a white growth on his right "nostril" (the little hole right in front of his eye). It was round and had the appearance of a dandelion that had gone to seed. I removed it carefully with a pair of tweezers and examined it - it's fibrous and has the texture of cotton.
I'm almost certain it's a fungus of some sort. Whether or not it's the primary cause or a secondary infection, I can't be sure, but it's at least something to go on.
What should I do now?
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Post by parker002 on Nov 20, 2009 13:54:05 GMT -5
I've been reading the website info on Columnaris and Saprolegnia and I'm sure it's Saprolegnia.
I didn't see any tissue damage or redness around where the lesion/pathogen was, even after I removed it.
In addition, the 2nd two pictures under the Sapro heading (the fin damage and the picture that looks like just like a dandelion) look just like what I'm seeing.
I'm still using the Pimafix and Melafix and I went ahead and added the only other thing I had on-hand - Jungle Labs Fungus Clear tank buddies. They don't contain Potassium Permanganate, but they do contain Potassium Dichromate (as well as nitrofurazone and furazolidone), which might have similar properties (chemistry was long time ago so forgive me).
Unfortunately, it seems the most likely cause is organic matter decomposing in my substrate and I haven't yet started that process. I'm going to vacuum thoroughly tonight as well as remove and clean 50% of the rock.
My water parameters are all well within the acceptable ranges listed there (my gH/kH are well above the ones listed), no ammonia, pH is stable at about 6.8. I don't use much salt due to my catfish, but since they're the ones dying, maybe I should consider it. I guess I might consider raising my pH above 7.0. I did add a second Aqueon 55 filter (13 days ago as of today), so that should help. I did go ahead and turn my temp back down, it was 76F this morning.
About the only advice I see on that page (and something you mentioned in this thread) is the addition of Wonder Shells for electrolyte/calcium balance. I'll get those today.
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2009 17:43:02 GMT -5
I found some time to check in "from the road" on a borrowed computer to see how all is going. Sorry to see that improvement is not forth coming. Please keep in mind one possibility and that is Otos are often difficult to keep (depending upon the source), as I know many experienced fish keepers that have trouble with them, so the Oto death may be un-related to the others. That said, both are bottom feeders which certainly makes the disease possibility of being harbored in the gravel something to think about, as well the earlier suggestion of a gravel change over more worth considering, (especially if colored gravel is involved) One other aspect of disease prevention is the use of a UV Sterilizer to kill pathogens in the water column and aid in improved Redox (a UV cannot help with diseases already in/on the fish, but even help with improved Redox is a demonstrable value with the use of a UV, depending upon the installation and UV used) See these articles as well: Aquarium Disease PreventionUV SterilizationPardon me if I am repeating any previous posts of mine, as I am trying to rush through copious amounts of email during this short time online. Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 21, 2009 2:09:27 GMT -5
First of all, don't apologize. You're obviously busy, yet you're taking time out to help me. AGAIN. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. Second, not only have I not lost any more fish, but I don't even have any that look sick anymore. I think you're right about the oto - they do seem pretty fragile and it's probably just a coincidence. The other two otos appear absolutely fine. As for being bottom feeders, I haven't seen any of the otos actually sit on the bottom. They hang on the tank sides, on the fake silk plants, on top of the rock formation ornaments, or on the filter pumps. In fact, I haven't seen any of them within 4 or 5 inches of the bottom the entire time I've had them. I don't have colored gravel. I have large, smooth substrate actually, because I was concerned about the corys and their barbels. My substrate is like pea gravel - the individual stones are as large as 1/2 inch in diameter. I think the drawback is that leftover food and waste have alot more space between rocks to sink all the way to the bottom, which could be causing my fungus problem. I would like to look at a UV sterilizer - is reading that page you post enough to help me understand what I need?
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Post by Carl on Nov 22, 2009 11:25:03 GMT -5
First of all, don't apologize. You're obviously busy, yet you're taking time out to help me. AGAIN. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. Glad you understand! Good News![/quote] This is often true, however many Otos will go to the bottom to eat algae or wasted food when the "supply" runs out in areas they prefer As you have already found out this is both "good and bad", however in the case of your fish, I think the good aspects of these smooth pebbles out weight the bad See also: Aquarium Answers; GravelHopefully, this article is quite in depth and much of the material is meant to demonstrate to the nay sayers scientific evidence to refute these common anecdotal comments, so much of the article is admittedly over kill as to the "which UV and how" aspect, however the beginning gives good information as to this aspect as well as the section in the middle dealing with "quality UV" is helpful as well. See also the blog posts here: UV Sterilizer ArticlesCarl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 22, 2009 19:31:34 GMT -5
Well, the good news is that I haven't lost anymore fish. They look good for the most part.
The bad news is that two of the tetras have small, white granules on their tail - about a half dozen per fish.
The have Ich.
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Post by fishfever on Nov 23, 2009 17:57:28 GMT -5
The only place I coul find MB locally was Petland and the bottle had been on the shelf for probably years and started leaking after a few uses so after using up the leaking bottle I bought a new bottle from Carl for half the price. I agree that Pimafix/Melafix used either separately or together are fairly light-weight medications that don't tax the bio-filter system much and are a good starting point if the fish aren't in too bad a shape already. It's probably worth cutting your filter cartridge(s) and removing the carbon to make any medications you use more effective before you start. Some other meds that I feel comfortable using in my main tank is Paraguard and medicated Wonder shells. These can be effective depending on what you are dealing with while having minimal impact on beneficial bacteria. I also keep the heavyweight stuff on hand just in case (primarily for hospital tank use). By the way if you haven't noticed, Carl sells most of these meds for much better prices than your LFS: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquariumtreatments.html
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Post by parker002 on Nov 24, 2009 9:47:51 GMT -5
Yeah, once I get things under control, I'm gonna order some stuff from Carl. I bought out of necessity this time and unfortunately didn't have the time to wait on shipping. The LFS I trust actually got some MB in and I bought some, even though I don't need it now, thank goodness. However, nobody in town sells Wonder Shells so I know that's one thing I will be ordering. I removed my filter media 6 days ago, prior to starting the Pima/Mela treatment and my ammonia is still at zero (pumps are still running though). So while my large substrate may harbor pathogens, it apparently also harbors enough beneficial bacteria to keep my tank running without any fiber/carbon filtration. My fish are looking great and even though I can still see some ich, it's only a few specks and only on a few fish. None of them are acting sick or hovering at the top of the tank, so I'm just letting things sit for now. Tomorrow is Day 7 of the Pima/Mela, so I plan to do a 25% water change. By the way, I don't think I ever circled back on this but I actually DID end up using Coppersafe for my intestinal parasite problems. everythingaquatic.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&thread=1864everythingaquatic.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sickfish&action=display&thread=1902I had originally decided to return it after talking with Carl on here, but I had so many problems getting the fish to eat medicated food and the LFS was adamant that it would not only work but it wouldn't be hard to remove either (they said they use copper all the time and have shrimp in over 50% of their tanks). To their credit, they were right. It cleared up my white feces problem within a few days and had zero impact on biofiltration. And when I was done with it, they gave me a polyfilter to insert in my regular filter pump. They said it would turn blue and it did. After 48 hours, my copper had gone from about ~1.5ppm to just a trace on the API liquid reagent test. After a second smaller filter for 24 hours, my copper was undetectable on the reagent test. The only thing about it that bothers me is that it seemed like as soon as I removed the copper from my tank, these illnesses started showing up. It might be a coincidence, but I'm not convinced. So I'm using copper to treat the ich. I know some people don't prefer it, but my experience with it hasn't been negative at all. I also got over my fear of killing my catfish with salt. I added 8 tablespoons of aquarium salt, following Carl's guidelines (1 teaspoon per gallon or 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons with sensitive fish - I added enough to treat 40g just to be safer). Finally, we have a Petland here as well, but I won't step foot in that store. 1) You're likely to get heckled or accosted by the protestors and 2) I actually agree with protestors philosophically. Petland, at least the one here, buys dogs from breeders who are known to use questionable (and even illegal) methods.
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Post by Carl on Nov 24, 2009 10:05:16 GMT -5
I happy to read that your fish are recovering. BTW, I hope I did not make you think the use of Copper is useless, as I do not think this nor do controlled scientific tests bear this out either. While different copper treatments vary (I prefer Aquarisol), and as well the use of Copper is not always the most effective treatment for some diseases/infestations, Copper is still useful. As well copper is one of the better treatment for Velvet or Shimmys and Copper is one the ingredients for Medicated Wonder Shells for a reason, it is a useful therapy. See this article for more about Copper: Aquarium Medications #; Chemical Treatments, CopperCarl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 24, 2009 10:20:35 GMT -5
I happy to read that your fish are recovering. BTW, I hope I did not make you think the use of Copper is useless, as I do not think this nor do controlled scientific tests bear this out either. While different copper treatments vary (I prefer Aquarisol), and as well the use of Copper is not always the most effective treatment for some diseases/infestations, Copper is still useful. As well copper is one of the better treatment for Velvet or Shimmys and Copper is one the ingredients for Medicated Wonder Shells for a reason, it is a useful therapy. See this article for more about Copper: Aquarium Medications #; Chemical Treatments, CopperCarl Sorry, didn't mean to give that impression. Nothing you said made me think copper was useless. I was just concerned (probably overly so) about using it because of all the horror stories I've read elsewhere on the web. You didn't explicitly say "use it" which my irrational panic interpreted as "don't use it". Obviously, you were really just giving me some anecdotal and empirical evidence about it's use, saying "be careful" and nothing more. So in the end, it's ME that was the problem. As I've come to learn from my time here, there's alot of misinformation on the web. I've got to learn to trust a few, reliable people. And more importantly, I've got to learn to trust my own intuition. As always, thanks for your help!
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Post by babygeige on Nov 24, 2009 23:02:30 GMT -5
Sorry to hear of all of your cory troubles. If it's any consolation, I've had similar problems with cories. I would buy 6, QT them for a month, then put them in my 30 gallon and all of a sudden they'd start to drop off one by one. I bought more at a different store, but the same thing happened. Then more at a third store!! I wasn't able to figure out what the cause was and I eventually just quit buying them.
I hope that you will be able to cure your fish!!!
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Post by parker002 on Nov 25, 2009 14:19:59 GMT -5
Sorry to hear of all of your cory troubles. If it's any consolation, I've had similar problems with cories. I would buy 6, QT them for a month, then put them in my 30 gallon and all of a sudden they'd start to drop off one by one. I bought more at a different store, but the same thing happened. Then more at a third store!! I wasn't able to figure out what the cause was and I eventually just quit buying them. I hope that you will be able to cure your fish!!! I had the first 3 for about 3 months or more and #3 is alive and well today, so I feel confident they'll be ok. I actually bought 4 new ones the other day - after his 2 friends died, #3 started trying to school with the tetras, which the tetras didn't appreciate. Fearing he might come to physical harm, I decided he needed new friends. Given that I was already medicating my tank, I wasn't really worried about them introducing any new pathogens. I know it probably wasn't fair to the 4 new cories to put them in my tank when I was treating for fungus and ich, but I just couldn't wait. #3 seems to really appreciate that I did it - the 5 of them are inseparable. I don't often catch any of them more than 6 inches apart. And they all looks healthy right now.
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Post by Carl on Nov 25, 2009 17:04:12 GMT -5
#3 seems to really appreciate that I did it - the 5 of them are inseparable. I don't often catch any of them more than 6 inches apart. And they all looks healthy right now. This is cool Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 25, 2009 21:00:13 GMT -5
Yeah, they are very cool. That's why this was such a rough thing - they're my favorite fish by far.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 25, 2009 21:18:11 GMT -5
By the way, I ended the Pima/Mela treatment today with a 20g water change. I had never really thoroughly cleaned the substrate before because it's such a hassle to avoid disturbing the ornaments, especially some of the plants because they float. So I removed all of my ornaments and thoroughly cleaned the gravel this time. We removed an unbelievable amount of algae, decaying food, and other garbage from the rocks - I'm guessing it might have been almost a half quart of green sludge. There was so much of it that just getting rid of the stuff we sucked up in the 20g change wasn't enough. We ended up "recirculating" the water already in the tank by placing a fish net over the end of the vacuum hose and vacuuming tank water into a 5-gallon bucket, then pouring the water back into the tank to start again. That's how bad it was - the clumps were large enough that we could use a fish net as a "filter". Removing the ornaments gave me and my daughter a chance to reconsider all of our ornaments and how we could position them so that cleaning is easier in the future. We decided the hardest ornaments to vacuum around are the plants with clear plastic bases - if you disturb them at all during cleaning, the gravel that's weighing them down gets knocked loose and they float away. At first, we were resigned to just not put them back in, but the tank look so bare. And then it dawned on me that the "problem" with these things was that they FLOAT. The backs of our tank hoods have little slots in the outside corners, just big enough to pass the "trunk" of the plants through. The plastic bases keep them from slipping through. So now we have plants at the top and bottom of our tank. The mickey mouse platies especially love them.
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Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2009 13:16:16 GMT -5
By the way, I ended the Pima/Mela treatment today with a 20g water change. I had never really thoroughly cleaned the substrate before because it's such a hassle to avoid disturbing the ornaments, especially some of the plants because they float. So I removed all of my ornaments and thoroughly cleaned the gravel this time. We removed an unbelievable amount of algae, decaying food, and other garbage from the rocks - I'm guessing it might have been almost a half quart of green sludge. There was so much of it that just getting rid of the stuff we sucked up in the 20g change wasn't enough. We ended up "recirculating" the water already in the tank by placing a fish net over the end of the vacuum hose and vacuuming tank water into a 5-gallon bucket, then pouring the water back into the tank to start again. That's how bad it was - the clumps were large enough that we could use a fish net as a "filter". I am glad you found this, as this gives some evidence as to at least part of the problems. As well this is also a point I try and make in many of my articles as to the importance of vacuuming procedures as this sludge/organic mulm can harbor Saprolegnia, Aeromonas and many other potential pathogens. Although over cleaning is sometime a problem a good vacuuming routine and even the use of additional micron filters such as the Aquarium Cleaning Machine or even simple re-filtration cleaning vacuums such as the Eheim Sludge Remover can be helpful if normal cleanings do not remove all the organic mulm without over cleaning resulting in too much water being removed that can shock the fish or even cause problems with the bio filtration process) Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 27, 2009 0:59:05 GMT -5
It's made an amazing difference in the temperament of the fish, especially the cory cats. They've been very active sine the cleaning and seem to really enjoy themselves.
One of the mollies is acting a little funny, breathing heavy, but he's not hovering exclusively at the top or bottom, so I'm just going to watch him. If he doesn't get better soon, I might give him a MB bath.
The tank is still "cupric" since I added an amount of coppersafe to the new water equal to the water I took out during the water change (1 teaspoon per 4 gallons - I removed 20 gallons so added 5 teaspoons to the new water) but I've noticed only 1 or 2 remaining ich spots, so hopefully I'm working towards the end of the lifecycle.
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Post by parker002 on Dec 10, 2009 20:38:55 GMT -5
It's been more than a couple of weeks and everything seems fine. I did lose the smallest oto, but the largest one is alive and well. All 5 corys are healthy and seem happy. My male mollies do daily saber dances now.
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