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Post by parker002 on Nov 16, 2009 12:53:00 GMT -5
Tank Size: 55g Age of the tank: several months pH: 6.8 Ammonia: 0 NitrAtes: ~20ppm nitrites: 0 GH/KH: GH: > 200ppm / KH: ~80ppm Temperature: 77F Fish: 3 julii corys
3 oto catfish (replaced my dead pleco with these) 4 mollies 2 dwarf platys 1 fancy guppy 4 mickey mouse platys
3 white skirt tetras 1 serpae tetra Symptoms: I've noticed this morning that one of my corys wasn't eating and was continuing to "sleep" instead.
Because these fish are somewhat peculiar and do rest often, I don't usually sweat it. But in looking at him closer, I noticed that his tail fin appears "frayed" and clamped.
I don't see any outward signs of infection - blood, open sores, funges, etc. The tissue between the bones/cartilage in the tail is just gone.
I'm operating under the assumption that he might have fin rot. I have noticed that one of the other ones (I have 3) is missing some of the bottom part of his tail fin, too, but it is rounded and smooth, as if it's in the "growing back" stage.
Another symptom that both of the fish with tail fin issues have that I cannot explain is that they've both started to "darken".
The 3rd cory is healthy and energetic. His background color is almost pure white, with the black leopard/zebra spots (they're of the julii variety).
The two with the fin issues are very dark - in fact, their background skin color appears to be almost an opaque black.
I didn't have any methylene blue on-hand and I work almost an hour from home, so it was going to be 6-7 hours before I could give them an MB bath.
So I filled a 1-quart pitcher about 3/4-full with tank water and added 5 drops of Melafix. I also had some Jungle Labs Tank Buddies (contain nitrofurazone, furazolidone, potassium dichromate) so I crushed one up and added about 1/4 of a gram to the water. I tried my best to follow the dosage recommendations on the packages but it's hard because 1-quart is such a small fraction of dosages that are written for 10-50 gallons.
I gave both fish a 20-minute soak in the pitcher and then put them back in the aquarium. The one that I am guessing is already "healing" looks great, but the other is still struggling.
I'm going to pick up some methylene blue today. Can anybody offer any other advice? Any clue why they might be turning dark?
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Post by Carl on Nov 16, 2009 15:22:05 GMT -5
First, I think your bath with the Jungle Tabs was a good idea as the medications contained there in are useful for many causes of decaying fin tissue such as Columnaris. I would utilize the Methylene Blue with these tabs for future baths as these medications combine safely for a bath. The use of salt in the bath (1 teaspoon per gallon to start with) would also be suggested. Make sure that there is no decaying material under rocks, filters, etc that can be starting point for some bacteria such as Aeromonas, although your water parameter number that you posted indicates that this is not likely a problem. This may be a simple case of weak or fish sickly fish at the time of purchase and there are no issues in your tank. You also may have to treat the tank directly with your Jungle tabs or Kanamycin (or even combined) Aquarium Answers; Fish BathsCarl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 16, 2009 18:02:53 GMT -5
I wasn't able to find any methylene blue at the two places I stopped today. I'll have to pick some up tomorrow. In the meantime, should I just use the tank buddies and some salt for tonight's bath? He actually does look better tonight.
Also, all 3 corys have been in the tank since I got it (14 weeks or so?) and all 3 were similar in appearance and energy from day 1, so I don't think it's a time-of-purchase issue. I will definitely consider your advice of treating the whole tank, especially if other fish start looking sick, because whatever is wrong with him started in MY tank, not at the LFS, at least that's how I see it..
If I do treat the whole tank, I'm assuming I'll have filtration issues because the meds will harm my bacteria, is that correct? Any other thing I should watch out for?
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Post by Carl on Nov 16, 2009 19:17:18 GMT -5
Since the medications I have suggested are primarily gram negative, damage to your bio filter will be minimal if used carefully in your main tank (water changes between treatments too). You will want to test ammoina levels during treatment, as well the use of Prime can help with any spikes. Treatment with your tank buddies and salt is a good idea until you can find MB (I also have it here: Kordon Methylene Blue) Please see these article for more about the use of medications and the second article for potential affects on the bio filter: Aquarium Medication Aquarium Nitrogen CycleCarl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 16, 2009 19:26:53 GMT -5
You're the best man.
I did a second bath about an hour ago for 25 minutes or so and he's not doing well. He swam in circles erratically after I put him back in the tank until he started losing locomotive capability. He would swim in short sports and then sink or list to one side. He eventually settled in the substrate but could even remain upright and started laying on his side. I saw one of the mickeys nip at him, so I moved him to the breeder net.
I don't think he's going to make it but I guess we'll see.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 16, 2009 19:53:56 GMT -5
He's now laying on his side in the breeder net. He's still moving water through his gills, but that's about it.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 17, 2009 8:54:37 GMT -5
He died last night and now this morning, the 2nd one is looking worse. His tail was smooth and rounded - I thought it might be healing. This morning, the bottom part appears frayed like the other and he's not eating.
I've now lost a pleco and two corys in the last couple of weeks. I just added 3 otos and I don't have any idea how to tell if they're sick. The 3rd cory appears to be fine, but I'm worried he's next. What should I do?
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Post by Carl on Nov 17, 2009 10:03:14 GMT -5
He died last night and now this morning, the 2nd one is looking worse. His tail was smooth and rounded - I thought it might be healing. This morning, the bottom part appears frayed like the other and he's not eating. I've now lost a pleco and two corys in the last couple of weeks. I just added 3 otos and I don't have any idea how to tell if they're sick. The 3rd cory appears to be fine, but I'm worried he's next. What should I do? Sorry that you lost your Cory My best guess is that your Corys may have come in with an infection/pathogen; this is unfortunately quite common as I would have whole shipments of Cory Cats come in sick and even with the immediate quarantine system I employed at my business it was not always enough. I would treat the entire tank and include Kanamycin ( SeaChem Kanaplex). Although the addition of Methylene Blue to your bath may have not made any difference, I would try and have this on hand in the future as MB acts as a Hemoglobin transfer agent internally and when absorbed during a bath (or quarantine tank treatment), it can aid the fish in natural defense and aid the other medications as well. As a side note, Methylene Blue was used as recently by the US Army in the Vietnam as an effective field therapy. Please see the list of medications to have on hand in this article: Aquarium Disease PreventionPlease understand that these are suggestions based on best guesses based on information provided (even MDs with many more diagnostic tools at their disposal must guess and then do not succeed in treatment) Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 17, 2009 10:13:52 GMT -5
My best guess is that your Corys may have come in with an infection/pathogen; this is unfortunately quite common as I would have whole shipments of Cory Cats come in sick and even with the immediate quarantine system I employed at my business it was not always enough. I've had these fish for over 3 months and they were fine until a few days ago. I have a hard time understanding how they were sick when I bought them - I'm not real familiar with fish, but with mammals, a 12-week onset for a bacterial or fungal infection would be extremely rare. I'm not trying to be difficult but right now I'm ultra-concerned with the rest of my fish - I don't want to lose anymore. I think this is the best course of action. Like I said above, I have a hard time believing that these fish were purchased already sick. I'm firmly convinced this started right here in my tank, which means all my other fish are at risk. Although the addition of Methylene Blue to your bath may have not made any difference, I would try and have this on hand in the future as MB acts as a Hemoglobin transfer agent internally and when absorbed during a bath (or quarantine tank treatment), it can aid the fish in natural defense and aid the other medications as well. As a side note, Methylene Blue was used as recently by the US Army in the Vietnam as an effective field therapy. Yep, gonna pick some up today just to have on hand. It's too late this time, but hopefully next time I can avoid this. Please understand that these are suggestions based on best guesses based on information provided (even MDs with many more diagnostic tools at their disposal must guess and then do not succeed in treatment) Absolutely. I'm not gonna hold you responsible if my fish die. At least you're TRYING to help. I do appreciate it, I've gotten really attached to my fish and my corys are my favorites. Carl[/quote]
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 17, 2009 12:00:08 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear of your fish losses - since all the deaths w/ the exception of your platy seem to be bottom feeders, it has me puzzled as well - have you tried slowly replacing your gravel? shot in the dark....sorry I can't be more help
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Post by Carl on Nov 17, 2009 12:55:55 GMT -5
My best guess is that your Corys may have come in with an infection/pathogen; this is unfortunately quite common as I would have whole shipments of Cory Cats come in sick and even with the immediate quarantine system I employed at my business it was not always enough. I've had these fish for over 3 months and they were fine until a few days ago. I have a hard time understanding how they were sick when I bought them - I'm not real familiar with fish, but with mammals, a 12-week onset for a bacterial or fungal infection would be extremely rare. I'm not trying to be difficult but right now I'm ultra-concerned with the rest of my fish - I don't want to lose anymore. My Bad, I thought these were new fish; as with mammals I agree that a 12 week onset is rare. However internal parasites can take many weeks to show (although your fish do not have any symptoms of parasites) However I will note that poisoning from poor handling during shipment can take months to show. This I have observed on multiple occasions where fish were exposed to high ammonia levels that permanently damaged their kidneys and/or liver. The symptoms your fish are displaying are common to such exposure. This said, I would still assume that you have an opportunistic pathogen in your tank and treat the tank for such. BTW, Methylene Blue also aids in some recovery of gills, kidneys damaged by high ammonia. I'm sorry to hear of your fish losses - since all the deaths w/ the exception of your platy seem to be bottom feeders, it has me puzzled as well - have you tried slowly replacing your gravel? shot in the dark....sorry I can't be more help This too is an excellent point, especially in the case of Aeromonas bacterial infections! Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 17, 2009 15:25:07 GMT -5
However I will note that poisoning from poor handling during shipment can take months to show. This I have observed on multiple occasions where fish were exposed to high ammonia levels that permanently damaged their kidneys and/or liver. The symptoms your fish are displaying are common to such exposure. Interesting. Because these 3 corys would have been added to the tank when we BOUGHT it. In other words, we didn't know about the nitrogen cycle at that point and these corys were in the tank when it cycled. It is possible that they suffered ammonia poisoning at that time. This said, I would still assume that you have an opportunistic pathogen in your tank and treat the tank for such. BTW, Methylene Blue also aids in some recovery of gills, kidneys damaged by high ammonia. I'm going to go ahead and treat the tank with Kanamycin just in case. And if #2 is still alive tomorrow when I can get some MB, I'll bathe him then. I'm sorry to hear of your fish losses - since all the deaths w/ the exception of your platy seem to be bottom feeders, it has me puzzled as well - have you tried slowly replacing your gravel? shot in the dark....sorry I can't be more help This too is an excellent point, especially in the case of Aeromonas bacterial infections! Carl Is cleaning my gravel sufficient? Or does it need to be replaced? Would treating the tank with Kanamycin change this recommendation any?
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Post by Carl on Nov 17, 2009 15:48:26 GMT -5
Is cleaning my gravel sufficient? Or does it need to be replaced? Would treating the tank with Kanamycin change this recommendation any? Murdocks suggestion (if I understand him correctly) is a slow change of gravel over time. If done I would change it out in 25% increments over 12 week span so as to not interrupt your bio cycle. The reason this can work better than simple vacuuming is that sometimes pathogens can get trapped in pore of the gravel, especially colored gravel. Vacuuming gravel still helps, in particular be allowing more oxygen to permeate the gravel which slows the growth of Aeromonas bacteria in particular. Either way this would not over ride any medication treatment IMO based on what you have already noted. BTW, adding freshwater before each treatment increases effectiveness of any treatment by removing DOC that will absorb the medication, as well your Redox will likely be improved as well. Wonder Shells or similar products (such as SeaChem Replenish) can improve Redox even more) Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 17, 2009 19:51:39 GMT -5
Is cleaning my gravel sufficient? Or does it need to be replaced? Would treating the tank with Kanamycin change this recommendation any? Murdocks suggestion (if I understand him correctly) is a slow change of gravel over time. If done I would change it out in 25% increments over 12 week span so as to not interrupt your bio cycle. The reason this can work better than simple vacuuming is that sometimes pathogens can get trapped in pore of the gravel, especially colored gravel. Vacuuming gravel still helps, in particular be allowing more oxygen to permeate the gravel which slows the growth of Aeromonas bacteria in particular. Either way this would not over ride any medication treatment IMO based on what you have already noted. BTW, adding freshwater before each treatment increases effectiveness of any treatment by removing DOC that will absorb the medication, as well your Redox will likely be improved as well. Wonder Shells or similar products (such as SeaChem Replenish) can improve Redox even more) Carl Sorry, I wasn't clear. Would treating the tank with antibiotics, combined with stirring up the substrate, work in leiu of replacing substrate? Wouldn't the antibiotics permeate the gravel just like bacteria and oxygen? This is starting to become a time-and-money-consuming cycle. I don't want to lose fish, but this is becoming discouraging.
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Post by Carl on Nov 18, 2009 10:20:03 GMT -5
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Would treating the tank with antibiotics, combined with stirring up the substrate, work in leiu of replacing substrate? Wouldn't the antibiotics permeate the gravel just like bacteria and oxygen? This is starting to become a time-and-money-consuming cycle. I don't want to lose fish, but this is becoming discouraging. I understand the frustration. Treating the tank with antibiotics, combined with stirring up the substrate will perform much of what replacing the gravel would. The difference is that often bacterial pathogens need certain exposure times and stirring the gravel gives only temporary exposure. Keep in mind that this was only a suggestion, not a must do. If the cause of the sick fish and deaths is ammonia exposure or if the pathogens are aerobic bacterial pathogens, this gravel change would do nothing. However it is very effective for Aeromonas and Saprolegnia pathogens assuming the bio filter is not destroyed. Also consider UV Sterilization for pathogens in the water column. Following as many aspects that are laid out in the Aquarium Disease Prevention Article will lower disease incidence (this article is based on some of my most in depth controlled tests a decade ago in which each subtraction or addition of each point affected the results from feeding, to UV Sterilization, to Chemistry including Redox) Aquarium Disease PreventionCarl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2009 13:15:50 GMT -5
What's the best way to determine cause of death? Or is there even a way?
Right now, all I really care about is making sure more of my fish don't die. #2 looks to be on his last legs now...
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Post by Carl on Nov 18, 2009 13:45:30 GMT -5
What's the best way to determine cause of death? Or is there even a way? Right now, all I really care about is making sure more of my fish don't die. #2 looks to be on his last legs now... There is no 100% method with the tools at most aquarium/fish keepers disposal and financial means You could start with a necropsy where you gently dissect the fish from the fish to the area between the gills. Then look for unusual damage to organs or blood vessels. This article may be helpful in determining healthy organs: Aquarium Answers; Fish AnatomyChronicling symptoms and then determining symptoms in common as way to make an educated guess as to the problem Noting purchase time, fish that have been through traumatic events such as high ammonia levels or major pH swings as a way to note commonality in deaths is another possibility of identification. Carl
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2009 23:01:03 GMT -5
So I had an adventure finding MB today. I'm feeling long-winded tonight, so please bear with me. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Petco and Petsmart near my office don't carry MB. Between Petco and Petsmart, there's 5 stores (including the two that are close) within about 45 minutes of where I work. I found ONE that carried MB, but it happens to be the store where my wife got the "platys" that were really mollies, and the last time I was in there, their tanks looked horrible with lots of dead fish. I've had mixed luck with the two locally-owned LFS I go to. The one closest to my work is sometimes helpful and sometimes not (the guy is a stoner, so he's not all there . I bought my pleco and tetras there, but he's also the one that sold me 3 male and 1 female guppies because he evidently couldn't tell the difference. I went in there today to look for MB and noticed he had his TurboStart and BioSpira sitting on the shelf next to his API test kit display. I'm new at this, but even I know that those bacteria cultures have to be refrigerated. So I left and went to the last place on my list. They've been pretty helpful in the past and always readily offer advice, my only problem going there is that I rarely end up buying anything, so I feel guilty. The only issue (if you could call it that) I've had with them was that they were the ones that absolutely insisted I use Coppersafe (my first thread here) to get rid of the roundworms. However, they're also the ones that recommended using TurboStart because my tank didn't seem to want to finish cycling. They sold me an exact amount for my tank and 3 days after I added it, my tank was done cycling. So I figured I'd ask them about my predicament, just to see what they would say. I didn't mention anything that you told me, other than that I was wanting to use MB, and I thought you'd be interested to hear what they said. 1) They thought doing an MB bath for the one really sick cory was an excellent idea. 2) They recommended "sanitizing" 50% of my substrate. They said to remove 50% of the rock, wash it with diluted bleach, rinse it thoroughly, and then let it dry. After it's dry, put it back in the tank. I asked them if I could just replace 50% of the rock with new and they said "sure, if you don't mind spending the money." They also said thereafter to do the same with 10-15% of the substrate that was left, until eventually all of the rock was either cleaned or new. 3) They said I could treat my tank with a broad-spectrum antibiotic but without knowing exactly what was wrong with my fish, they probably wouldn't recommend it. 4) They said that the symptoms I described sounded like ammonia poisoning. They said it's very possible that the damage was done weeks ago, during the cycling process, and that the fish just finally "broke down". 5) They recommended I dose the water with Pimafix and Melafix. They said while they're not a strong as most antibiotics/antifungals, they said they're also not as "harsh" on the fish or the tank in general. They said they're easy to remove from the water. They also said that Melafix in particular will help with damaged fins and barbels and aid the healing process. So pretty much, they agreed with everything you suggested to some degree. I have gone ahead and bathed #2 in MB and dosed the tank with Pima and Mela. He looks MUCH better already and the rest of the fish are doing well as usual. I have also upped my temp to 79F. Is that advisable?
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2009 23:05:05 GMT -5
On a side note, I asked them about identifying/diagnosing disease and they said it's really not worth it for a $4 fish. They do sell expensive salt water fish and with those, they have a vet they use and he can usually peg an ailment 90% of the time. However, that vet said he can't diagnose dead fish - they have to be literally on death's door so you'd have to be willing to sacrfice any life your fish had left to find out what's wrong with it.
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Post by parker002 on Nov 18, 2009 23:36:57 GMT -5
Just got done reading your section about Pimafix and Melafix and feel pretty good about my decision to use them. If I end up needing something stronger, I can certainly do it, but I think these two looks like a better alternative all the way around for right now, especially if my fish have damage from ammonia exposure.
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