Improving filefish tank setup

[hwofnt]

Hi, I'm looking for advice on improving filefish tank setup (marine).
Without moving tank to a different stand or place and purchasing a bigger tank or high end skimmer.

Peninsula tank is 125g long, 6 ft x 18" x 18". Rubbermaid side sump, 20g or so. Nothing is inside stand that is knee high, but this makes all easy reachable (health). No place for a bigger sump, access to plumbing and electric board should be unrestricted. This leaves a small walking space at the front, it's all.

Undrilled tank, will not drill, can't afford such losses. Overflow QuietFlo rated 1200 gph, actually less.

Bare bottom, not much LR in tank, more in the sump, and ~4 gal slow flow denitrator with Seachem De*Nitrate and Matrix above it.

Filtration:
ASM G-3 (250g rated) skimmer, not recirculating (tried Turboflotor 1000 recirculating - all the same), less that 50 micron filter bags changed daily, carbon, phosphate remover (in bags, no place for Phosban reactor that I have). Time from time (weekly or so) run Vortex diatom filter for a half of day. The smaller one, now bought the big XL, but it is on back order, have to wait few weeks.

HOB Emperor 400 with same micron pads, for the surface flow in the opposite end of the tank and some - very weak - redundancy in filtration.

18W UV sterilizer with 160 gph pump.

Flow:
Ocean Runner 3500, 900 gph, as a return pump. Flow is along one long wall, visibly lasts for 3/4 of length, the flow is picked up by Emperor and powerheads and turned back and up to the outflow box.

Korallia 2 and Seio 602? (600 gph each) at opposite end of the tank, under Emperor 400. Soft flow, not bothering fish. Area of the fast flow from return pump is fish-free, the come occasionally for a massging shower.

LR ridge at the middle, not much, fish needs place to turn.

Fish:
Tank was set for a two leatherjackets, Pencilligerus filefishes, that grow large: less than one year old they are approximately 10"L x 1.5"W x 5"H, including tail. Flattened from the sides fish, rhomboid shape.

Feeding:
They should be fed 3x a day, more than a tablespoon each time, for both, plus algae. Not less.

Tank setup doesn't handle this bioload well, even if not food is left within hour after feeding.

Water parameters:
No ammonia or nitrites, nitrates are stable 20 ppm, thanks to slow flow denitrator, phosphates grow and have to be removed all the time. Last months used liquid phosphate remover and like it. 8 dKH alkalinity, keeping it up by ReefBuilder (also Seachem), pH from 7.8 to 8.2 by API test kits, nothing I can do about it, tap water. Ca and Mg are kept solely by 10% weekly water changes by IO and Reef Crystals, mixed 1:1. No hard corals in the tank.

I'm using tap water with Prime or Brightwell Erase-CL, have to, sorry. Tap water is tested for phosphates and copper, everything is OK.

Options:
I was thinking about improving flow pattern, but fish becomes bothered and swept off by the flow.

Side sump is too small to add anything else, and no walls of cabinet around to attach more equipment. Even box-denitrator limits access to the sump. Noticed this only after setting everything, was too late.

Unused equipment I have:
- fluid sand filter
- phosbane reactor
- everything for DIY slow sand filter (biological filtration for drinking water in remote places)
- everything for not automatic ozone injections, incl. ORP meter (not ime or energy left for this, and space for everything else),
- one more Emperor 400 and Fluval 404 canister filter. The last was used on previous tank 90g, very similar, and it had to be cleaned twice a week, not less,
- trashcan with bulkheads for DIY cryptic sump, no place near the tank again, was planned for previous tank, 90g,
- analog of large 26" AquaFuge with BakPak2 kind of skimmer, not impressed when used it on 20g long tank,
- bought HydroSponge 5 with 3 additional sponges (two double sets), but plan to use it in hospital tank, and they are very, very big.
- extra Ocean Runner 3500 pump (900 gph), Ocean Runner PH 2500 (600 gph), Sequence Dart (1200-3600 gph, needs hard plumbing, was advised against DIY installation), one more powerhead Seio 620 (600 gph).

Refugium, DSB, Duplex refugium didn't help.

Do you see anything that can be improved? Without spending a fortune and what will not require workshop with a router. Anything I will do, will be done on the kitchen counter.
Space limitations are also the major pain in the neck.

Thanks.

[Carl]

I am maybe missing something, but you seem to have a tank running with very good equipment including your ASM Protein Skimmer.

You note that you would like to improve the water flow, what is it that you see as a problem here?
You might consider another propeller pump such as the Seio 602 pump you already have.

The only thought as for extra equipment might be to invest in an RO unit for your water, so as to remove any possible phosphates and nitrates from your water change and "top off" water.
I would also add that I prefer the Aquarium Cleaning Machine over the Vortex Filters (in my experience it does a better job of removing organic wastes), but even here the Vortex is still an excellent micron/cleaning filter.

But honestly, I am of the opinion that if everything is working well, why add more to your tank (or add more expense, hassles).
You note that you have health issues, so I guess I would not like to see any added stress or work added to your aquariums, unless this is the problem you are attempting to solve.

Carl

[bikeguy33]

I would also like to add....not really relevant here right now, but in my time as a surface tech, many of our marine tanks didnt have sumps. to me they are un necessary and water evaporation and salinity become tough to control. some of our most stable tanks were using simple canister filters. for these tanks we did 10% water changes weekly and bi-weekly filter maintenance (unless of course there were unexplained deaths or other odd things). but for the tanks at hand, i`d suggest lids for all the sumps to control evaporation. it makes an amazing difference. I didnt take note....do you run a uv sterilizer either permenant or temporarily swithed between tanks???

[hwofnt]

Why flow:
I had seen descriptions of the tanks where strategically positioned small pimps on timers swept the bottom very efficiently and moved collected crud to the outflow. But peninsula tank, visible from both long sides, is less suitable for this because cords will be hanging everywhere.
Another way was use surge (or very strong pump for a short time), but too much problems with plumbing, and outflow box has limited capacity, size dependent.

Most are using good wave makers and tanks are clean.

Another possibility
is increase amount of water that passes through filtration every hour, but the biggest outflow box that fits this tank handles not too much, and fish is bothered by high flow.

My main concern
is keeping tank clean, preferably with minimal effort, with simplified efficient setup (theoretically it should exist, still didn't find it yet). And tank still has fast phosphates growth, brown diatoms on the glass, sometimes red cyano. This fish is sensitive to the water quality, and behavior changes if something is not right.

I already bought Vortex.
But I'm curious, how frequently micron cartridge should be changed in Cleaning Machine? Diatom powder is cheap and discarded after single use.

One more question:
UV (Jebo) unit, can it be hanged cord down, as on pictures on your website? I tried to keep it up or at least horizontally, but horizontal positioning with tubes down seems don't fill insides with water, only half.

bikeguy33:
UV is working permanently, except for a month, when it was needed on 20g tank with frogfish that stopped eating. It helped.

Sumps, as I understand, are containers for holding obtrusive equipment, too big and not safe for a tank (skimmer's intake and vibration) or unsightly (filter bags), hidden place for dosing.

I should think well about closing sumps, but this will be difficult: skimmer and at least a couple of tubes will still be above, and everything better to be observable, in case if anything goes wrong. Main evaporation in through the big tank surface anyway.

I tried canister filter on 90g tank. With this kind of fish it had to be cleaned at least twice a week, or red slime will be everywhere, and opening Fluval and restoring flow is real pain in the neck. Even then, LR soon became covered with growth (microalgae and bacteria, could be anything), blocking pores and reducing water access for interpore filtration. After an year, the rock become source of pollution itself and had to be replaced. I am serious. This is why I'm so interested about simple setups that work. Maybe they work only with flake eating small fish, who knows.

May be you will be interested in creating thread about setups that you know they work, including full list of inhabitants. As GARF has description of bulletproof reef.
It will be very useful and educative, not everyone is capable or interested in spending hours weekly serving the tank. I saw amount of tanks for sale in classifieds this month and it made me think why they stopped. This information from you may help to stop or reduce amount of people leaving the hobby.

[Carl]

I do not have an easy answer for your flow issues, as I see your point as to too many cords, yet by having fewer but larger pumps can cause too much agitation for many of the fish.

*One thought is some well placed internal filters or even sponge filters rather than the power head, but this will not decrease work load, rather it would increase the work load by adding more sponges to rinse; so this may solve one issue but add to another.

*The Cleaning Machine does not use diatom powder, but the cartridges are easily rinsed and re-used up to 25-30 times.
Where this cleaning filter is superior (IMO) over the Vortex is for reasons you just expressed; that is it helps "sweep" the bottom without the required agitation the Vortex requires.

*You noted diatoms and Red Slime, this is where using an RO unit may help. As well lighting can make a big difference with Red Slime (changing to full spectrum LED totally alleviated Red Slime in a test tank recently).

*I have had this problem with certain positions of UV Sterilizers.
This seems to depend partly upon the UV Sterilizer design.
I have dealt with this by draining the UV while connected into a bucket until this "bubble" disappears, changing the UV position, or simply allowing for this bubble and lowering the flow rate to accommodate it.

*I am familiar with GARF, they have some excellent ideas/research.
One point I have noticed over the years is that there are many ways to keep a healthy marine tank, and often methods that are excused as not feasible by some is due to the lack of correct set up of certain marine set-ups.
The case in point here is the use of canister filters which although they certainly have their negatives, these negatives are generally due to the method of application.
I have installed canister filters in pre-drilled applications where the tear down is simple with no siphons to worry about (not to mention I am not much of a Fluval fan). As well I will set up these filters with live rock crumbles, Matrix, Purigen and other bio media that does not lend itself to the filter becoming a nitrate factory (which these filters often can become).
Set up in tandem with micron canister filters, UVs, and even fluidized sand filters, along with good lighting, etc. I have never had any issues with Cyanobacteria, etc in the marine/reef tanks I have set up this way, not to mention the simplicity made my job quite easy (which was important as time =$ in my aquarium maintenance business.)

I have a diagram of this in this article:
Aquarium Filtration; Canister Filters

Carl

[hwofnt]

My canister filer on 90g tank had no prefilter, maybe this contributed to the problem. It was connected to a Rainbow Lifegard/Pentair Aquatics Customflo, customizable inflow-outflow plumbing parts. Not using it now.

I'm wondering, how setups that work for Pencilligerus filefish were made, have you met them in your practice? Or for another heavily fed, large and messy fish.
Trying to pick up bits and pieces of useful information where I can

[Carl]

I think any additional filtration , more likely fine poly pads or micron filtration at the end of your filter process can help remove additional organic waste/mulm. The problem is that these filters/pads need to be changed often to be effective or the any larger pore filter media often more so.

The problem with any filter, and generally more so with larger capacity filters whether it be a canister filter or a wet/dry with lots of bio balls is that these filters often do a good job of trapping wastes and converting them eventually to nitrates, is that most often these (especially wet/dry) simply allow for rapid buildup of nitrates (& phosphates too). This is where the simple practice of using live rock and deep sand beds was a boon for reef keeping IMO.
This is why I started using live rock crumbles, volcanic rock, Matrix and similar in many of these filters to counter this problem.

Anyway, I think I am getting off the subject you are asking; I only state this as I have found this a major issue in keeping mixed reef/fish tanks.
As to the file fish aquariums, I have not kept a specific tank for file fish (or more specifically Pencilligerus file fish). However I have kept heavily fed high bio load tanks, which is why I made the earlier comments.
One aspect of high bio load tanks is that I also employed deep sand beds with the sand at least 3 inches deep and just as importantly a 1/2 inch layer of #3 or #5 crushed coral on top. This later aspect is what I do not see much mention of on the internet, which leaves me scratching my head as this allows much easier trapping of organic mulm so as to be more easily vacuumed or simply picked up by filters rather than settling into the more difficult to clean sand.

As I noted in an earlier post, the use of internal filters or sponge filters strategically placed can help pick up this extra organic mulm without adding too much current, the only down side is that they must be rinsed regular so as to not add to your nitrates.

Finally (& please pardon me for bring this up again), although I did not/do not always use RO/DI water for mixing or topping of my marine aquariums, I almost always have used RO/DI water in high bio load tanks so as to not add even the least bit of contaminants to my aquariums other than what the food, inhabitants add.

Carl

[hwofnt]

Thank you! It was very informative for me.
I'll add RO/DI unit to the list of items to buy